Jeff Ma
This episode is really special folks. Michael Seaver is an award winning executive coach, leadership consultant, speaker and author. And he packs an incredible amount of insight and knowledge onto this episode. Just like us, he's working tirelessly to bring humanity back to the workplace. And he does it through his own data and research back methodology. I learned a lot, I know you will, too. So enjoy the show.

Hello, and welcome to Love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from, and we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. How's it going? I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I'm joined today by my colleague, friend, all those things. You know him well, Mohammad Anwar, hey, Mo, how's it going?

Mohammad Anwar
It's going well, Jeff, thank you for having me again, again.

Jeff Ma
And as always, we're going to have a very special guest and talk about love, and business, and strategy, all those good things. And today's guest is an award winning executive coach, leadership consultant, keynote speaker and author was on a mission to unlock human potential to help people uncover and live their purpose basically live more meaningful, authentic lives. And he's developed a unique methodology to revolutionize how leaders can live authentically and how organizations can engage employees. So I'm really excited to have on the show, Michael Seaver. Hey, Michael, how's it going?

Michael S Seaver
I'm doing wonderfully. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you all for having me today.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. Wonderful to have you and we have we have two icebreakers this the thing we make people do. I don't even know if people like this. If you're listening, let us know. No one's ever told us they like it or dislike it, but we still do it because who am I to break tradition? So what we have changed since the beginning of icebreakers is we go first, to give you a chance to think about the question. And I'm going to open up the little digital envelope here and pick a question Mohammad, your icebreaker question is oh, what what has been your favorite Halloween costume ever? That you've ever worn?

Mohammad Anwar
I'm gonna have to be honest and say I've never worn a Halloween costume before. So I guess my regular dressing style either.

Jeff Ma
Hey, look, ice ice has been broken. Accomplished. Good answer. Michael. They same question. What's your favorite Halloween costume you've ever worn? No, gosh, I would

Michael S Seaver
I would say it was the the one that I tried on just a couple of days ago in preparation for this upcoming Halloween. And my partner Tiffany decided to get our dog and our cat costumes that made them look like dinosaurs. And then each of she and I were dressed up basically effectively as zookeepers. Right. So I have this really, really big hat aviator sunglasses and I scarf, you know, the big pants with the pockets. And so if we ever needed to wrangle a dinosaur or zookeeper dinosaur, I'm your guy.

Jeff Ma
Why would you not just take that all the way to Jurassic Park?

Mohammad Anwar
Yeah, that's what I was thinking do now a zoo. Why zookeeper once? Well,

Michael S Seaver
that's there. That's definitely where I was going. So God, we like to be just a little bit unique and different. And so yeah, so want to mix in some different, like genres together.

Jeff Ma
I love it. And I'm expecting photos. All right. Well, when I first stumbled across to you, Michael, on the great worldwide web of it kind of popped out immediately at me because one of the things you kind of just plaster kind of with your messaging with your name is this, and I'll quote it bringing authenticity, emotions and humanity back into the workplace. Those are your words. And unbeknownst to us for the last, I mean, separately for us, Mohammad, myself, in our journeys, the last three or four years, Mohammad, we've basically, in our quotes, been working to bring humanity back to the workplace. And so I had to, I had to ring you up, I had to get you on the show, because that's just I think we just have a lot to share here. I know we come from very different angles. But before I dive into that, can you just start us off with a little bit of your background, a little bit of who you are, what drives you?

Michael S Seaver
Yeah, thank you, Jeff. And thank you for recognizing the similarity, right that exists from us. I think humans are far more similar than we give ourselves credit for. So I was raised in a very small town in West Michigan 2500 people and my family in 1953 started a landscaping lawn maintenance and snow plowing business. So for me 12 until 24, I cut grass and shoveled dirt and plowed snow. And so I learned at a very young age, the values of hard work and the values of customer service and the values of integrity, the values of family, but also at that particular point in time, my grandfather and father ran the business in a very command and control leadership style, which was always really difficult for me. So I felt from a very young age, pretty disconnected, almost abandoned in some way. I felt like a robot inside their business. And so in the year 2003, after I finished a university degree, I got married, and we moved to Phoenix, Arizona, which was a massive transformation. And we spent the first four and a half, five years of our time there. Working in the hospitality industry, I worked at the Four Seasons Resort in north Scottsdale, which was a massive blessing for me, because I learned about anticipating guest needs, I got to interact with folks from across the world, and then interact with celebrities and understand privacy and understand the human dynamic at a much deeper level. But as we were in our respective jobs, my wife and I were effectively separating emotionally. And so in 2008, we divorced. And that all happened effectively on a Friday. In the following Monday, I started an MBA at the Thunderbird School of Global Management, which was a lifesaver for me at that particular point in time because I was given a career coach named Pam. And she gave me a battery of assessments and asked me a series of questions. And she helped me to understand that my life was not meant to be working in a family business or working in, you know, some sort of hospitality role, she helped me understand that I was actually designed to be a coach. And so as a second year student, I was given a handful of first year students to help write resumes and cover letters into go through the process of helping them basically define their brand, how are they going to pitch themselves in the respective communities back then. And that's where my life changed, I recognized that I was in flow, the rest of the world shut off. And I was just so interested in passionate about helping people uncover what made them different and unique and authentic, that I promised myself, I was going to make it a career as time passed and progressed. So I did I think what most MBAs do, and I took the full time job where I made a boatload of money, had the car had the house had the girl had all that stuff. And after about 20 months of doing that, I just remember feeling very deflated, like I wasn't able to coach I wasn't able to impact people in a very authentic way. So in October of 2011, I started my coaching practice as it stands today. And so as we've kind of navigated the last 10 years, the coaching practice started out as career development, coaching, and then it became communications training, and then it moved into personal branding. And then it matriculated a little bit into executive coaching and understanding how to get teams to function better together. And then the last couple of years have been spent on changing organizational culture. And at the beginning of this year, 2021, I kind of put everything together into one package when I published a book entitled, I know, and that's why I referenced what I referenced just a minute ago, Jeff about I think that we're all far more similar than we're allowed to believe, right, because I really wanted people to read the book, and to understand the commonalities and the similarities that we all have within ourselves, right, regardless of where we're from, regardless of our history or background. So I feel very blessed that as an executive coach, you know, I get to do team trainings, I get to do organizational culture consulting, now I get to speak publicly, you know, I have online courses, I have a lot of material on my website. But at the end of the day, I really just loving, I really just love unlocking human potential. And whatever it takes to do that, whatever I can do to do that, I'm going to do

Jeff Ma
I love it. Thank you for sharing that. I want to start, I guess, our discussion just right where where it came from, which is good. How do you define like, because I know your whole statement is authenticity, authenticity, emotions, and humanity back into the workplace. Let me just start with humanity, because that's kind of where we're at as well. What does that look like to you? Like when you say, you know, bring humanity back to the workplace? Can you summarize what that means to you? What that supposed to look like?

Michael S Seaver
Yeah, I think really, what it comes down to is that under the command and control leadership style that Jack Welch or Steve Jobs made popular years and years ago, you know, people were really robots inside of our respective business. And we've moved into a time in human history where aligning and empowering the workforce matters immensely. But what comes with that is that bringing humanity into the workplace means that the individual is now allowed to bring the whole of his or herself, the highs and the lows, the things that are happening in his or her personal life. All of those things have to be able to be allowed into the workplace and talked about in a much broader and more meaningful way. And so I think we're at this place in human history where we're now starting to accept that there isn't a thing called work life balance, we're moving to a place of work like integration Right, where we're allowed to be our most authentic and whole self, at home and in the workplace. Right. So humanity in the workplace, for me is very much about a person being able to bring the highs and lows of their personal life, and to discuss them in the workplace and understand how they impact or integrate into that too.

Jeff Ma
He said work life integration Mo, does that get you? Get you smiling?

Mohammad Anwar
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I do. I do have a question, Michael, how do you address people out there that might say no personal stuff should stay at home and work stuff? You know, it's a professional environment. We're not here to talk about, you know, what goes on your personal life? How would you address that kind of? Yeah, tough. People may have,

Michael S Seaver
I think it's, it's easy to still be confronted by those older mental models, right. And October 2015, was a really important month, because it was the first month that the millennial generation, because they became the largest percentage of the American workforce. And so the way that I would convince somebody that we're at this point of transition is to give them some data about the things that are transforming and changing. So whether it's October 2015, and understanding that the millennials became the largest percentage of the workforce, or you can look at the American Psychological Association and find that, over the last couple of years, the level of stress since the workplace has catapulted far above anything that it was before. Or you can look at Gallup and employee engagement statistics, and that only about 3435 36% of people inside of the workplace are actually happy or actively engaged. Or that, you know, you look at Jim Collins book Good to Great, and some recent studies that have come out of McKinsey is that more than 70% of the time, when an organization's sets, some sort of a stated objective, they fail to meet it 70% of the time. So when you're confronted with this type of information, and you understand that the system is broken, and it's not actually leading to efficiency, or productivity or happiness, then all of a sudden, you start to think differently about maybe I should try something different.

Mohammad Anwar
Got it.

Jeff Ma
How do you? How do you coach humanity? Like, how do you teach something that some would argue someone argued, I mean, but asking for a friend, some would, some would argue humanity is, you know, some people just don't have it, or some people, you know, it's either difficult or impossible to kind of put that somewhere, it's just the wrong person for the job. How do you coach that person?

Michael S Seaver
Yeah. Well, I think that the way that I attempt to help a person understand their shadow self or the unknown unknowns, right, or the things about themselves, that they're not yet aware of, is that I give them like, third party assessments. And so I'm certified to use the DISC assessment, I'm certified to use emotional intelligence assessments, motivators, core values. And so depending on if the person's open to it, I will incent them to complete a DISC or 12 driving forces or core values or some emotional intelligence assessment, and utilize their own responses to an independent third party assessment as the crack right as the door opener. So then, if I can collect four, or five or six of these things about the person and show them the patterns across each, right, that there's probably five, six or seven patterns of information that exists across each of these tools, if you will, then all of a sudden, they start to see themselves in a slightly different light. Now, because there's power in data, right, and I want them to see that there's data building up in one way or the other. Sometimes that means that they realize there's a stronger connection between them and the employer or the work that they're doing. Or sometimes they realize after integrating this new knowledge, that they're not meant to be working, where they're working, they're meant to go do something else. But the way that I try to convince them is by using effectively four or five data sources, allowing them to do that. And then also, in chapter four of my book, there's a past present in future q&a, where someone either alone or with another person can go through and answer these questions. And it's designed to help a person recognize the acculturation that they received through their childhood through their teenagers or their 20s. So they can see how they were acculturated to believe something specifically, as opposed to really standing in their own version of truth. Right. So sometimes it's data, sometimes it's calling out those specific events from their past to help them see why they believe what they believe.

Mohammad Anwar
I guess I have a question around, you know, using data and these evaluation programs that you spoke of. I understand you're using it from a coaching perspective. But I have noticed some organization use these coaches, these profiles, you know, this profiles and these assessments to kind of place people as well inside of the organization. And I don't know I felt This just my personal sharing from that side is like, if someone wanted to grow in a certain, you know, field or a skill set, and the profile comes out and says, Hey, this is what your strengths are, this is where you're good at, but someone has a desire and ambition to be good at something or wants to pursue something, how do you make sure that the data that's being presented to give them a perception or impression of who they are versus what they want to become? How do you balance those things? In a coaching conversation? If someone's like, well, it conflicted with the way the data is represented?

Michael S Seaver
Yeah, great question Moh. So when you think about you're right, many large organizations tend to use personality inventories as a as a way to reduce risk or as a way to place someone inside of a business. That's very common practice. I also don't, I think that in the 80s 90s and early 2000s, it was an effective means by which you could find quality talent, but from, you know, basically 2018 2019 Moving forward, it's no longer a valid means. Because what we're doing is we're starting to recognize that the millennials, what they're looking for is an alignment between their core values and the organization's espoused values. So what I would want someone to do were to understand this to get a little bit more clarity about themselves by understanding their life's mission, their core values, the short term goals, things that they're really attempting and trying to learn. And then if they're still struggling a little bit with what those things are, have them go out and talk to 5-6-7 People kind of like a personal board of directors to get some additional ideas or feedback to say, Does this really make sense? If I learn this? Is that the right next step to be able to accomplish this longer term goal that I have? So I have them collect data in a slightly different way? Right, go to that board of directors come back and say, Okay, is there alignment here? So the decision is always about alignment? Is what I'm going to learn? Is it going to help catapult me to this next version of myself? Is this the right coach? Is this the right employer? Is this the right area, industry place that I need to be in order to make that happen? So yeah, maybe it's the data from an assessment, maybe it's talking to a personal board of directors?

Mohammad Anwar
No, perfect. Yeah, that's what I was, I was trying to seek clarity, because, you know, I have seen some biases and some things from these types of reports that have actually, like used to determine someone's future path or where they should be pleased, then what they're good for, and what they're not good for. And I think corporations have may have used it in a way that was still treating them as robots with these assessments, but not really giving that as a way to look within for the person to still try and align that with their personal values and their mission and a purpose to the corporate mission purpose. Thank you for the clarity. Another thing you, you You brought up a few times now is millennials, right, like so it's a generation that, you know, as pretty much taken over the workplace, as you mentioned, from October 2015. So my question to you, and this is more so I'm a firm believer in everything you're saying so more so that we can like have a discussion around it? How do you address that? Oh, that's a generational issue. That's it's, you know, that's just for that generation. But that's not meant for everyone or, you know, that's not what every other generation desires, and so forth. So how do you handle those conversations that bring back humanity to workplace?

Michael S Seaver
Yeah, yeah. Thank you for asking. It's Dr. Bruce Lipton has been doing a bunch of research into the five brainwave states. And so there are kind of five ways by which our brains neurons fire. And what he has discovered, and he's been studying neuroscience since 1971. And what he found is that from birth until age six, the human brain is in something called the theta brainwave state. So everything that we learn around this is essentially baked into our subconscious. And then that becomes our operating model after age six. Okay, so that knowing that is kind of the core of what I'm about to say. So when you think about what America has done in the last, let's say, 120 years, or 100 years back in 1929, America was a $1 trillion economy. We are now a $23 trillion economy in the year 2021. So what has happened is is that we think about acculturation the things that we learn the things we see on TV, the things that are happening in the community. And so when you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the first four needs or deficiency needs the top four our growth needs. So as the different generations in the workplace have basically taken care of the basic four levels of Maslow's hierarchy, right I try to help people understand that because the basic physiological needs and safety and security needs and things like those are already met in our society, because we have become so affluent at scale. Now all of a sudden they start to See where each generation is on Maslow's hierarchy. So the baby boomers were raised by the, the traditionalists and the traditionalist were raised at a time in human history, where there was major war, there was major famine, there was a great depression. So the traditionalist parent taught the baby boomers that safety and security and staying in the same job was the right way to navigate life. So then as the economy grew, the economy developed, Gen X was the first generation that didn't need to because of affluence, didn't need to work in cradle to grave employment. But then as the baby boomers and the Gen X folks had kids, now, the millennials and some Gen Z, is that because we've ascended another level on Maslow's hierarchy, they no longer have to worry about safety and security needs or even love and esteem needs, they're already going to self actualization. So this is not comparing one generation to the next. This is understanding the time in human history from birth until age six, the environment in which that person was raised. So I attempt to strip away all notion of being a traditionalist, a baby boomer or millennial, and begin to have discussion about what was happening in the environment around you from birth until age six. And how has that informed your mindset as you've navigated life?

Jeff Ma
Maybe the best answer to a question I've ever

Mohammad Anwar
heard. Yeah, very good.

Jeff Ma
Incredible.

Mohammad Anwar
Do you have a follow up, please? So how do you help coach the older generations to, like want this humanity in the workplace? Like how do you get them to that change of mindset? Can you help elaborate on that a little bit? Yeah,

Michael S Seaver
that's a that's an easy thing for me, because when you think about the old Swiss psychiatrist, Carl Jung, he had, there are four life stages that all humans go through. And the third stage is called the statement stage or phase. And it's where each of us in our own respective ways, desires to transfer knowledge to the next generation. And so for some folks, that means you transfer it to a child or to a grandchild, but not everybody has one of those. So we have to think about if a person is resistant to a millennial, let's say there's a baby boomer who's resistant to the millennial, I tap into their need in the statement phase to transfer knowledge to leave a legacy, right to pass on the things that they've learned the lessons that they've learned through life. And after they've done that a couple of times, then their mindset shifts about what the younger generation is because they start to see themselves inside that younger generation person. So I trick them to have the conversation about transferring knowledge. And then I asked them questions later about what they learned from that person. And Undoubtedly, the baby boomer says, I saw myself inside that millennial, I realized that we're really not that different. They're just at a different phase in life than I am.

Mohammad Anwar
And have a Gen Xers, but you're at it.

Michael S Seaver
Yeah. You know, same. So you know, baby boomers are oftentimes referred to as helicopter parents, and Gen Xers, which are the parents of Gen Z, they're referred to as drone parents. And so when you think about the kind of the the implications of that, you start to think about Gen X, again, being the first generation of independent entrepreneurs. And so they start to think about how are we going to impact Gen Z, right. And so the process is effectively the same, helping them to understand what it was that they were acculturated or conditioned to believe, going through a similar process of self discovery by coaching or mentoring or teaching things. So the baby boomers have historically been great at teaching through traditional structured hierarchical means and methods, corporations, boards, not for profits, things like that universities. Gen X, they don't teach through those same vehicles. Right. You see them at startup incubators, right. You see them at accelerators, you see them in different places helping people think entrepreneurially. So the process is the same. But what they're teaching is different baby boomers, were teaching safety and security through the central hierarchical structure. Gen X is teaching more about entrepreneurship and self sufficiency. Right? Make sense?

Mohammad Anwar
Yes. Yeah. Thank you very much.

Jeff Ma
I think something a little bit of a pivot but kind of a segway I think when it comes to coaching these individuals and working with you know, all the all the tactics and the methods you're explaining here, in my experience, I think a big factor in variable in the success of this work, lies in emotional intelligence, like it lies in how much emotional intelligence can an individual having How much can we draw out of them? Can you talk a little bit about how, you know, to me it's often it can be a big hurdle to be it can be something that's very difficult to train or something difficult to change. You know, it's kind of, I wouldn't say it's fixed. But I would say that moving the needle, for some people for emotional intelligence might be a real ask a real challenge. Do you have any experiences like that? And how have you dealt with it?

Michael S Seaver
Yeah, certainly, you know, each of us, again, based on what we're acculturated to believe from birth until age six, we have very different mental models, as we navigate life as we navigate what it means to be human, or what it means to be an employee or a community member. So there are five core dimensions of emotional intelligence. And so I have each person that I work with complete an EQ assessment. And it's a self rated entity. If they wanted to get a 360 assessment, we could also do that. But let's say that we go the individual route, right on these five different dimensions, they rate themselves on a scale of zero to 100. And then we're able to compare them to 30 million people around the globe who have also done the assessment. So the first learning for them is an initial comparison against the mean of 30 million people. And that wakes a lot of people up right when they start to see how they're comparing to a very large number of individuals who have done that. So the assessment that I use at the back of the assessment delivers a number of different strategies or actions that a person can take to improve any one of those EQ areas. So the way that I do it is I have the individual complete the assessment, we walk through what it means for that person, and how there are positive and negative consequences of their responses or of their style, if you will, so we have that dialogue. But then the key is, is that they have to take some sort of an action. Now I attempt to meet with my clients every two weeks. So depending on the area that they rated themselves lowest, I will then assign one or two pieces of homework with regards to that emotional intelligence. Now, that could be anything from a gratitude journal to a pain journal to having a peer accountability, buddy hope is something like there's any number of things that can be, but the key is doing the assessment, helping the person understand where they fall on that assessment, and then giving them increasing levels of homework around that. So that there's deeper levels of awareness about why they respond the way that they respond, right? Because whenever we collect information via the five senses, it goes straight through the back of the human brain and through something called the limbic system. And so my my coaching oftentimes focuses in on, why is it that your amygdala is being triggered? Why are you going to that point of fight, flight or freeze, and we have to address and understand where is that trigger? So I create these activities and manufacture these learning experiences to help them uncover that trigger. Because all emotional reactivity today is due to some old unaddressed or unhealed wound. So my goal as a coach is to go back to an address the origin story of whatever that trigger is. So I create a series of actions and things that they have to do every couple of weeks until we can find the origin story. Once the origin story is addressed, now we can say, okay, here were the negative feelings that you felt then. But key to releasing that negative feeling is to understand the positive consequences that also happened as a result. And the way that release really occurs. And the way that we're able to build resilience, or the capacity to regulate our emotions, is when we say this negative event occurred, I had these negative feelings. But 6-7-8 months later, here were the positive aspects or outcomes of that particular thing. Because I went through the hardship I learned this. Now the real closure comes sometimes years later, when someone gets to teach another person, that lesson, right? That is the full circle clearing of the old trigger. So it can be the assessment, it can be every two weeks completing an activity, but the thing that allows for emotional intelligence to grow the fastest is helping a person understand the lesson that they learned from the hardship, and how they can teach that lesson to other people. Because now, advancement is when they're not feeling an emotional trigger, by that same incident repeating itself over and over again, that's progress.

Jeff Ma
I love it. It's, you know, I'm not going to use valuable airtime to dive into all the details in the facets, kind of what we work with in our in our pillars in our process. But everything you're saying is basically this alternate universe version of what, what we do and work with and it's amazing to hear because I love your approach. I love your angle. I'm on board. I'm like 100 I get excited hearing about it because this is one of those things where there's many different ways to approach I think these these problems, everybody's different, everybody will kind of, you know, go through their journey in their own way, and they need their own. You know, some people need the data first, some people need the emotional trigger. First, some people need the impetus or case for change first. And, you know, everything you're saying is just awesome, because you're really good at it, you're really, you've got your system down. And it's exactly, you know, it almost covers for, I would, I dare say, like, the weaknesses that we might have in our approach sometimes, because we are admittedly less, you know, upfront process and data driven around our approach and more around mindsets and behaviors, which you are as well. But it's kind of how we lead in our in our, our conversations, but it's just so awesome to see that angle, to be honest, I'm really, I'm really excited that you're out here doing this work in that way, because people need this. And really, we just, we all have different kind of terms. And, and, you know, ways we explain these things. But it seems to me that it all kind of comes still back down to the same basic things. We're talking about the emotional side of things, the authenticity, the compassion, humanity, and the mindsets, the growth mindsets that we're trying to instill in people. And so that's really heartening to hear. I love it. Thank you for sharing.

Michael S Seaver
My pleasure. Thank you.

Jeff Ma
Can we if you don't mind? Can we talk a little bit about your book? I know that in that book, you share a pretty personal kind of journey and a story. And just curious if you'd be willing to share maybe a high level a little bit about that and talk about your books.

Michael S Seaver
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so the book, as I kind of mentioned a little bit earlier, it really is, you know, the 10 years of me being a coach, you know, kind of smashed into 54,000 words. And so I used the William Bridges model of transition as the core of the book. And so the book is at its core, nine chapters, and I divided each section or each part of the book, the first three chapters are about how do you end and let go this old stale version of yourself? Right? How do you process loss? How do you overcome fear? How do you do the emotional release that's needed or required? The second three chapters are about being in that neutral zone of experimentation, right, get to try things. And so it's about how do you define your brand and know your core values and know what makes you different or unique in the marketplace? And it's about emotional intelligence. And it's about what's that identity? How do you begin to shift your identity into this new version of yourself. And the third three chapters are really focused in on new beginnings and planning and starting to implement some of the things that you desire. And so I talk about shifting identities, I talk about leading an engaged team, and I talk about becoming a coach to coaches. And each chapter is fundamentally designed the same way I tell a client story or some important story from my life. We state the thesis, we talked through the supporting research, and there's, you know, 75 or so, and pieces of research that I cited throughout the book, I give a five or a six step process to help a person navigate that particular thing if they desire to. And then I close with a shorter version of the story. But the way that I open the book, and I do this really intentionally is that I talk about how in May of 2019, I had just gone through, really about six or seven months of significant hardship for myself. So I had already been a coach for a number of years, I started coaching in 2011. So here we are, in June, July, August of 2018. And I decided to exit a romantic relationship that I had been in for six years. And at the same time, we sent her daughter to college. So for the very first time in my life, that I mean, this honestly, I was single, and at the same time, I was empty nesting, which I had never done before. And I'm 41 years of age for transparency sake. So I was doing something in my life that I had never done before, which is be single and send a child off to college. So I spent the remainder of 2018 contemplating what I wanted to do. So I decided to launch in my business in December, January of late 2018, early 2019, a series of workshops and online courses, and I went pretty high dollar value into those right really trying to make them nice, and it ended up being a complete and total flop right publicly, it didn't work. And and so I ended up losing quite a bit of money on that. And I came to this realization in April, May specifically May of 2019. That's like, for the first time of my life. I'm single without a romantic partner, this daughter that I love dearly is now two hours away. I don't see her quite as often. And the things that I'm trying in my business are not working. And I felt like a complete and total failure. I realized I was not but I felt that way. And so I contemplated suicide. And it was one of those things that I'll never ever forget because I'm sitting there on the bed. room floor, just contemplating, what's the next step? Why is this happening? How would I leave Earth? Is this the right play? You know all of the questions that run through your mind. And then something very strange occurred. And this is what I talked about in the introduction is is that my cat Cleopatra, who is now 1010, and a half years old, who is not an affectionate cat in any way, shape, or form, she's very independent. She came over to me and she laid on my chest, and she just sat there purring, right with a resonance that I don't ever remember feeling from her even to this day, right years later. And it was in that moment, like, I knew that my life's purpose was bigger, that it was different, and that I had to stay on Earth. And so in that moment, I chose to stay. And it was in that moment that I realized that I was going through different types of hardships and challenges, in order to give other people hope, that it was possible to get through them themselves. Right. And that's what really came to me in that moment, right was that I went through the hardships, I learned important lessons, in that the book is effectively the stories of my life of how I went through hardships and challenges before others, with the specific intent of sharing with them, how to navigate it themselves. And so I feel in a tremendous place now, right, October 2021. As we're doing this, I feel in a tremendous place just moved to a new state within within the United States, wonderful New Beginnings happening in my life in a lot of good ways. But I had to get to that deep level of awareness for myself about my life's purpose about being here to go through the challenges earlier to give other people hope that it was possible to navigate them for themselves. And so the book is a little bit I know autobiography, it's a little bit telling clients stories, it's a little bit process. But it's it's really my life's work in 54,000 words, or 11 chapters. And so I'm really thankful that it's out there. It's in print, it's ebook, it's an audio book. So whichever form a person wants to be able to receive it, they certainly can.

Mohammad Anwar
Awesome, I'm reminded of something from, you know, somebody shared with me once like, so I went through a lot of hardships, but different from yours. So thank you for sharing. And it just reminded me of sharing with you and I was going through my hardships around the same time actually 2015 2016 all the way to 2019. I had a lot of struggles, a lot of problems personally, from a business standpoint, and personally personal life, business life, everything was seemed like it was just a big mess. And there was really nothing that I could think of better that could go for me. And in that moment in time, somebody, a spiritual mentor, actually of mine tol me Mohammad, this is not a curse, everything you're going through right now is not meant to be a curse on you, or something that's meant to be bad for you, this is nothing but your training for your future version. This is your mentorship, through these hardships that you are learning to become a different person. And through that you are going to help many more, and you are going to help others. So I'm reminded of that with your story. So thank you for, like bringing that story up and like getting to realize Yeah, like sometimes, when we're in the moment in life, when we're going through these hardships, and these troubled times, we tend to think, you know, this is the worst thing that could be happening to us. And in the moment, it feels like crap. And but the reality is, you're always better after the fact, you know, and that moment in time will pass. And as it passes, it makes you a better person. No, it does not put you in a worse predicament, but a predicament where you can learn from it, help yourself with it, and help others as a result of it. So yeah, that was something I just thought I'd share with you as you share your story.

Michael S Seaver
Yeah, thanks for that Mohammad. It's it was really challenging for me in 2020 going through the process of actually writing the book because I was fearful of telling certain pieces of this puzzle to others. But what was very clear, for me was that I recognized is that I had been a robot inside my family business and I had to find a process for becoming authentic read, I had these puzzle pieces together. And what I realized was is that there are many challenges that are happening for people around the globe right now. You just gave a great example Mohammad about various things that occurred for you earlier in life. And so I want I wanted the book to be was that if there's somebody who's disengaged or unhappy or feels unappreciated, or maybe they feel they're not living up to their potential or they don't have the right work life balance, or they want more control over their time, like I knew I needed to tell my story, and I needed to do it through the book in a way, so that they could get to this place of really understanding their soul's purpose. Right? That right, they could really understand because I have a number of Reiki Masters and energy healers and executive coaches. And the two books that I read from from Yogananda to Carl Jung to, you know, these things really matter immensely to me. And so I wanted people to say, Who am I authentically, what's my life's purpose? What's my personal version of happiness or joy? So I really wanted the book to honor the ups and the downs that life have for us, in that oftentimes, the challenges are, they're like the last final test at one final stage of your life before you elevate to that next level, right, like you just said a second ago is training. And I want people to make that kind of the normal mentality, that it's just training for what's coming

Mohammad Anwar
agreed, no, makes complete sense. And I really liked the style that you mentioned, you took for your book, because, you know, they're dime a dozen business books. And that really doesn't self help books. But a lot of the times they can get too preachy. And I think I like your approach. And I'm very aligned to it. Because it's empathic storytelling approach to taking the people through a journey through your story, right. So as people are reading the book, they're able to, through your journey, they're living their own journey, right. They're like realizing things as they see your story and read about your story and your life experiences. They're relating it to their life experiences. And I think that's one of the best ways to bring about realization and awareness in other people and leaders is by being authentic by being vulnerable, and allowing yourself to be your authentic self that then gives permission to others to be their authentic self and look within, and you become this kind of, you're creating the space and permission for them to also look within and see their own journeys through your story. So I appreciate the approach that you just mentioned for your book. And I think it's, it's far more readable for people who didn't want to read theory and case studies and you know, things like that. So, no, I appreciate you sharing that. So Michael, thank you so much for coming on our show. It's been a pleasure. And I am so fortunate to have met you like this is my first time meeting you and I'm already like feeling this connection. Yeah, just hearing you speak and your stories. And, you know, it's good to meet like minded people and people who are trying to make a difference in the workplace and bring back humanity to the workplace. Because while that is, that seems very obvious. It is not that prevalent in the corporate world today. And it's a, it's a mission, it's a challenge that we have to bring about more awareness to the corporate workplace environment and leadership, that this is the way it's, it needs to be a it's not something, it's a luxury. No, it has to become this way. Otherwise, we're going to lose talent, we're not going to be able to sustain our businesses and our lead a meaningful life for ourselves and for the people who work with us. So no, I think this is a great mission you're on. And I'm happy to know that you're beside us and that mission, and share the same purpose. We look forward to speaking with you maybe again, on this topic or other topics. But thank you again, for coming in are showing Jeff, I'll let you take it to the finish.

Jeff Ma
And as always, thank you to our listeners, you know, please be sure to check out our book. If you like this podcast, you might like the book it has the exact same title. Maybe about to say something just start over.

Mohammad Anwar
Now. Closing Why are you

Jeff Ma
Yeah. Again, you gave me you gave me a look like what do you mean? Absolutely awesome. And as always, thank you to our listeners, please be sure to check out our book. It is available on Amazon and other retailers. And if you'd like this podcast, I'm sure you'll like our book. It has the same title. So at least there's that here at love as a business strategy, the podcast, we are posting new episodes every Wednesday. If you liked this topic, let us know if you want to hear something else. Let us know. You can leave us that five star review be wonderful. But other than that, Michael, thank you so much for the time you spent today as Mohammad expressed that, Mohammad, thank you for joining as well. Always fun to have you around. But hopefully our paths cross again, Michael, I know we have a lot more to discuss. Maybe we can do that in the future date. So thank you so much.

Michael S Seaver
It's my pleasure. Thank you both.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. And we'll see everybody next