Casey Hasten
This survey was done by PwC. And it said that 65% of the workforce is currently looking for a new job. And that number goes up. If the company announces that they're going to make them come back into the office full time.

Jeff Ma
Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from and we believe that humanity should and love should be at the center of every successful business. We want to have conversations and hear stories about how real people and real businesses operate. And I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I'm joined again today by my co host, Chris Pitre. Hey, Chris. How's it going?

Chris Pitre
Hello, hello.

Jeff Ma
How's your week going?

Chris Pitre
So far, so good. Busy is always good, you know,

Jeff Ma
Agreed, agreed. Our guest today is Casey Hasten. Casey is an executive recruiter, executive coach and a hiring guru. She's currently working as a director of recruiting at VIP. And she also hosts the We are VIP podcasts. And we're excited to have Casey here with us today to help us connect the dots between the recruiting process recruiting HR, all that. And of course, love. Welcome to the show. Casey, how are you?

Casey Hasten
I am fantastic. And thank you so much for having me today. I'm excited to be here with you guys.

Chris Pitre
Likewise

Jeff Ma
you know, we always start with random icebreaker questions. I had trouble picking this one today. So I hope you all can appreciate it. Chris, you can go first, what's your best tip for avoiding distractions when working from home?

Chris Pitre
Embrace them. I think I've talked to people about this before. But I think that in this new reality of work, hybrid work, but also the reality that you can't really compartmentalize life and work anymore, I think that the distractions are going to happen. And for me, we spent so much energy and mental focus trying to keep the distractions away, instead of just allowing those distractions, right. So if your kids interrupt you to say hi, or ask you for a snack, just go ahead and get you know, they're gonna keep interrupting, right? But also, if you are distracted, maybe that's a warning or a sign that you need a break that you need to actually get up and go and take care of something or do something right, you know, get out of the house, whatever. So My tip is to embrace those distractions and don't keep trying to fight them off because you waste more energy trying to avoid distractions that are inevitable.

Jeff Ma
Nice. Okay, so you're working from home.

Casey Hasten
I I'm working on a hybrid schedule right now. So I do two days at home and three days in the office and I have probably the biggest distraction I'm, you know, I'm an empty nester, so I don't have to worry about kids. But I have two little fur babies that are very, very loud, and things that they have to protect me from the blowing leaves, the squirrels and everything. So they tell me about it quite a lot. And so one of the things that I've done to really kind of minimize distractions is I use focus music. So binaural beats within I like the binaural binaural beats with the bass tones. And I can put in my earbuds if I'm not having to be on the phone. And just I mean, I don't know what it is about that music, but it just like I just zero in on what I'm doing and they can go bark all day.

Jeff Ma
I thought you're putting on some special music for the dogs. I was like oh

Casey Hasten
there is a channel that is called calming anxiety music for dogs.

Jeff Ma
Oh that's awesome. Chris, you can try that for Kirby sometime. Yeah,

Chris Pitre
I have a firm nephew that you can sometimes hear in the background but he is usually downstairs and I'm upstairs but his his barks whatever he's you know, less than 10 pounds but his bark carries like he's you know, 100 pounds same. So you're just like, it's going on. And again it's around the mailman Amazon delivery right, UPS I hate UPS your neighbor, right like oh my gosh, the wind move right? Like it was exactly Amy little thing. Just set some system off.

Jeff Ma
All right, let's jump in Casey. I always want to start here. But I want to hear a little bit and we're here to talk about kind of like, if so much experience so much expertise in recruiting. Can you just lightly draw us the path that got you there? Like where? Where's your passions where your passions lie and recruiting and how did you get here?

Casey Hasten
So not my first career. I definitely made a career pivot and I so wish that I had been an assessment junkie when I was younger because I would have known never to have gone into my first career which was accounting And I know can you see me as an accountant? I did it for a long time I stuck it out because like, this is the path I've chosen, right. And so I did that for about 20 years. And then I was looking for a job. I'd been with a company for 13 years that ended up closing. And I was looking for an accounting job and I ended up going to recruiters. First time I've ever had to go to recruiters every other time, I'd always been handpicked for my next role, right? And I'm going to these recruiters, and let me tell you something, I'm in the DFW area. I think I found every bad recruiter first before I found one, good one. And there's a big difference between you know, a good recruiter and a bad recruiter. And we'll talk a little bit about that in a moment. But when I finally found a good recruiter, one that listened, one that used love as business strategy, she really talked to me. I mean, we talked for about an hour and a half, where most recruiters would meet with you for like 15 minutes, how are they going to learn what it is, that's going to make your life whole and your next job and 15 minutes, right? So at the end of the conversation, she looked at me and she goes, you know, you don't even like accounting Casey. What am I going to do? She goes, come recruit with me. And I went and shadowed her for a day. And by the end of the day, I was just like, just give me the phone, you don't even have to pay me, this is my calling. And that's when my passion was ignited. That's when I really stepped into that zone, where I never really work a day in my life, because I love what I do so much. And that's helping people. So I'm a third party recruiter, I'm not an internal recruiter, which means I work with hundreds of different companies at one time, they'll come to me to go find the good talent. And so I get to have an impact all across the US. And it's so amazing.

Chris Pitre
Awesome. That's really one interesting, inspiring, insightful, all of the above. You know, and I'm going to that transition that pivot that, you know, realization that Aha, which is scary, but also freeing at the same time, I'm sure. Can you walk us through, like, what got you to realize that recruiting really was it like, I mean, you are on that shadow, but I'm sure there has to be something else that you saw or witnessed or, you know, a high that you felt, you know, after one interaction, you know, I'm curious to know what that was for you.

Casey Hasten
So in the world of accounting, you you you're alone, a lot, there's a lot of solitude, right, you sit behind your desk, I mean, behind your spreadsheets, you're ticking your tie, and and you're really having to be in, in the moment, when you're doing all that and you're not talking to other people, you're not engaging a lot unless you have to go get a number and then it's right back to your desk, right back to that spreadsheet, right. And I think what really helped me when I was doing the shadowing because I'm listening to, I've got a, another headset on. So I'm listening to every conversation that she's having. And I'm listening to the impact that she's getting to have with these people and the interaction that she's getting to have with those people. And I was like, that's, I mean, I'm an extrovert, through and through, I'm an extrovert, don't put me in a small office and close the door, I need people. And I think that's really the first thing I didn't know, I was gonna love recruiting as much as I do. But just having that people interaction is really that moment where I was like, This is what I need to be doing.

Chris Pitre
Got it. Awesome.

Jeff Ma
That makes sense. And and I guess, you know, we, when we bring guests on the show, we don't we don't it's not like you go through this questionnaire where it's like, do you apply love as a business strategy and everything you do? Like we don't, you know, like, like, they're like, so I'm always curious to know, like, what what is your take on? You know, where love specifically in your life or in your work or your day to day? Where does that show up? Where does that apply? Oh,

Casey Hasten
it shows up in every touch that I have with people because we don't want them to. We want them to find like I said, find that next role that's really going to get them excited and say thank God, it's Monday, right. And so there's been times when I have talked to people and once I hear what it is they're looking for, and I've, they've gone to interview for a job and I start having those conversations with them. And I hear those red flags and that hesitancy and I will pull them from the process. And I don't do it because I don't want him to get that job. I do it because I don't want them to get a job they're gonna hate. And I tell all my candidates that too, I'm like, it is I don't want you to hate me at the end of this process. I want you to call me your best friend and invite me to your baby showers.

Jeff Ma
Are you are you how invested? Are you in the company's culture that you're bringing people into right, like so? Like, obviously, we're always talking about that corporate culture, that company culture, and you're here placing people into these environments. How involved are you how hands on are you in that?

Casey Hasten
So as far as creating the culture, I'm not that hands on, pardon me, but as far as exploring their culture to make sure that it is going to be a good fit for my candidates. I am all over that. And I can give you a couple of examples. One of my companies that I'm working with right Now I've worked with for about eight years. And when I first started working with them, they were in startup mode they were doing, you know, going through an IPO going public. And then they also merged with their number two competitor that same year that they IPO. So it was horrible there, they were grinding their people to death. But here's what I did, I worked with them. But it was with the full disclosure that I was going to tell every single candidate, how horrible it was going to be, if they decided to go work there. And they were like, that's okay, because we need them to know coming in. So they appreciated that we'll fast forward, they ended up hiring an internal recruiting team. And so for about two years, I wasn't working with them. Last year, they came back to me, and I'm like, I am not going to place people there if the culture is still the same, because I mean, there's been an awakening throughout this pandemic, people don't want to work in that they know, they don't have to work in that environment anymore. So if that's the environment that you have going on, right now, I'm not your girl. And the Senior VP took an hour to explain to me all the initiatives they had put into place to create a culture of diversity of inclusion of, you know, a place where people really want to come to work, and where they have a clear path where they can grow, however they want that to be, that's up to them, the company's not dictating that. And so it's really been refreshing to reengage with them on a different level, and be able to say, Hey, I'm excited about this company. Now, instead of you don't really want to work here, you know. But the other one that I was, the example that I was going to give you is a company that I also used to work with long time ago, and I ended up firing them, well, they came back. And that's when I was with a different recruiting agency, they came back to this agency, and reengaged with another one of my recruiters, and I'm like, I'm not sending any candidates there. I know what that place is like, and, you know, I would not like you, if you put me there. So I'm not gonna put you somewhere I don't want to be. And so he's like, the only candidate for this? And I'm like, No, I'm not sending you any. So. So yes, I do get involved in the culture.

Chris Pitre
That's awesome. And so just a little bit like, I think we've talked about this in the past, but I used to work, you know, through by way of acquisition for a large, I guess, international recruiting firm. And so I got exposed to a lot of the recruiting conversation and even Softway has worked, you know, as a partner with a number of recruiting firms. And one of the things that we're seeing is that candidates are now willing to decline positions for great companies, or large companies, or fortune 100 companies, because of the culture. And recruiters are having to give that feedback now to clients. Whereas in the past, that typically wasn't a point of conversation or, you know, I guess a comfortable, comfortable conversation in the past, or recruiters would have to tell a client who had maybe a high paying position or, you know, had a name, you know, or brand name that people typically respected, that the candidate declined you even though you wanted them. I'm curious to know if you've had those kinds of conversations, or it sounds like you are in the situation where having those conversations does lead to you having to fire clients.

Casey Hasten
Yeah. And I really tried to have those conversations on the front end, not on the back end, because I don't want to waste anybody's time. So but there are times like, and I am encouraging companies, you got to move quickly in this market right now. Because candidates have about a 48 to 72 hours shelf life right now, before they get multiple offers. We literally just had a candidate call us, she had an interview at one and she cancelled at 12 An hour before her interview, simply because she got an offer that she couldn't refuse. I mean, they just they're flying off the shelf. But I'm sorry, where were we going with that?

Chris Pitre
The feedback around culture to employers and how you front load that versus, you know, waste people's time at the

Casey Hasten
end? Yes. So I really tried to so I'm out there visiting the company, I'm talking to multiple people. But see, here's the other thing. I also know where people are looking the most. So if I'm getting a lot of resumes from your company, I want to know why before I engage with you, if you're having a mass exodus, there's a problem.

Jeff Ma
I feel like this is like my own personal maybe even like, like stigma, if you will. But like when I think of recruiters, I often think of them like I think of him in the in the terms like old old fashioned terms of like salespeople are it's like you have to meet quotas, like your objective is to you know, it's a business so you're obviously there to Yes, connect people to jobs, but essentially, you know, for profit and make sure that you get people in the highest paying possible job, you know, things like that. And, again, this is from my earnings. This is literally from my perspective of not being in that world at all. But you know, that's something that's really interesting to me because the way you're talking about it, Casey's like very, very human. It makes perfect sense. It makes you no sense to put people where they'll be happy and things like that. But it leads me to like, kind of ask the question of, like, where, where do you sense it harder? You know, where, Where's where's the? Where does it get hard, I guess, to be human, because we all have those elements like the reason Love as a Business Strategy is needed is because business is often driven by those, those numbers by those bottom lines by the shareholders. And so, at times people find themselves at odds with doing, let's say, the right thing, or the best thing because of of that need, do you have those types of experiences and situations?

Casey Hasten
So I'm gonna have to say no, and, and you're right, a lot of the bigger agencies, they have built those empires off the backs of the people that work there by just browbeating them, giving them those quotas. I've been in a place where you're like you're making 300 outbound calls a week, you're having 10 interviews, you've got to have 10, send outs, I mean, this, this, this and this, and it's so very stressful, right. But here, and I think this is a switch with it internally, is, you know, I have my own internal rules. And my number one internal rule is to give value first, it doesn't matter. If I'm not making the company happy, if I'm not making money, like I need to. If I'm not giving value first, to the communities that I serve, then I'm not living up to my own standards. So that comes first. And I believe if you do that, and you do it genuinely, that money will follow. And it's not that it's not failed me yet.

Chris Pitre
I love that, you know, standard. And having been around so many recruiters that you mentioned those good ones and those bad ones. And I still want us to go deeper into it's a good and bad recruiters. But I know that that oftentimes is not true for people who are trying to place roles, and like you mentioned, have those hard quotas set and they just need to meet those quotas. But I'm curious to know like and in the age of the great resignation, what is a good recruiter? What is a bad recruiter? And what's what are some of the numbers that you're even seeing, you know, around that.

Casey Hasten
So the numbers around good versus bad

Chris Pitre
numbers around the great resignation and how that's changing things like from data perspective, but then how that plays into being a good or bad recruiter.

Casey Hasten
And I think that the great resignation, I mean, we're all desperate for candidates right now, because of that, that labor shortage is absolutely real. The standards and the criteria have changed for what we would call them a placeable candidate. And that's another thing I you know, I there are certain profiles, that companies will pay a fee to an external recruiter for and there are certain profiles that they won't, those are lessening a little bit more now that we are in such great need, I can tell you, we're working on over 160 different roles right now, throughout, you know, with all different companies, but that those numbers are real. And I think that a good recruiter, even though we're feeling that pressure of not having enough candidates will still continue to nurture those relationships with the candidates that they do have. You know, for example, one of the things that I like to do with my, especially my new grads, the ones that are just starting out in their career, the ones that I know that I can have the greatest impact on is if I played it even like say, zero to two years, okay, if I placed them in a role, they're getting a gift bag from me full of books that I think they need to read to set their career on the right path. And so I think that's an extra touch, I don't know, very many recruiters that would do that. And that's out of my pocket that I don't have an expense account for that. And but I feel so strongly about the success of the people that I work with that I want to give them that little extra off. So I think there are a lot more, I don't want to call them dirty recruiters but more don't know what else to call it. There are those recruiters that they don't care about the candidate, all they care about is their pocketbook, right? All they care about is they you walk in you Mr. Candidate, all they see is $1 sign on your head. And those are the kinds of recruiters you want to stay away from, because they're going to tell you anything they can to get you to do what they want. And another example of that is, you know, I don't know if you've heard this before or not, Chris, but close on the first offer. Well, why are we closing on the first offer, if that's not what the candidate wants? What if they want to explore some other opportunities? Those are little games that can get played in the recruiting world that I think are just awful. I think they're tacky, because you're not putting your candidates needs and wants and you know, this is going to affect your paycheck for one check. This could affect this person for years. So you need to be conscious of that and remember that they are a person, not a product.

Chris Pitre
Yes. And also I think that you know, while we're talking a lot of talking a lot about the candidate, the client is also suffering that too because you know if it's not a good You know, match. But on paper, it looks like a great match. And in that one conversation you bet you rush through, it was a great match. And then you actually put them there. Like, is that client going to come back to you for the next role? Right? And relationships? Yeah. So I completely agree. And I think that when it comes to this conversation, we do have listeners, and, you know, viewers, if they're watching the video, who are in those, either internal recruiting roles, or who are, you know, sort of hiring managers that are, you know, looking for great talent, I'm curious to know what you would advise them to be looking at thinking about or doing differently even than maybe what they would have done or been doing in the past, before the great resignation before this hybrid approach to work before the sort of candidate expectations and preferences changing so drastically. If you've seen some things

Casey Hasten
I absolutely have seen some things. And I think you guys are going to appreciate this. Because, again, going back to that reflective period that everybody's had, where they've learned, I don't have to put up with that anymore. Companies are really going to have to change their ways, they don't get to Bulldog people into doing what they want, they need to think about what their people want. Okay. And that needs to start in the interview process. Remember, I mean, you're not the only one, the hiring manager is not the only one doing the interviewing, the candidates are now interviewing the hiring managers, just as much. So it's so important that you are able to show them, you know, give them really good solid examples of what your culture looks like, not just the words on the wall, it needs to be evident, you know, give examples, don't just say, oh, yeah, we have a good company culture, tell me how.

Chris Pitre
often I would say that the interview experience should be a demonstration of your culture, right. And to me, that's, you know, when I've been in interviews, and when I, you know, instruct the teams is like, how we structure this interview, the process, the communication, everything is a reflection of our culture, and what we are standing for and what they should expect, you know, within our walls, right, because it's a small things is the interaction is how they're greeted, when they walk through the door, it's, you know, what happens when they sit down, who are waiting for who speaks first, right, all of that, you know, sort of is encapsulated in that culture. And so many teams refuse to really sort of delve into that interview process. And so that hiring process to see if there's opportunities to really reflect the culture that they have inside of that, and that doesn't do it, because, oh, this is what we've always done it or, you know, we're supposed to be very professional and super uptight. And we're supposed to have a good cop and bad cop, we're supposed to interrupt them, you know, throughout the day, like, those old ways came to an end are still being upheld, and you're like oooh.

Casey Hasten
And it's I think we're seeing a lot more of the team interviews where you get to interview more of them. And I had that I've had to go really well. And I've had to go really wrong. You know, and I can give you an example of that we had a candidate that was interviewing with a company. And he'd gone through multiple interviews with the hiring manager, and then the hiring manager directly below that person. And they were wanted him to come back and meet with a team. He is on board. It's 10 out of 10. He is loving this company, meets with the team. There was one person on the team that was completely toxic. He said, Nope, no, thank you. Yep. But that's important that you find that out ahead of time.

Chris Pitre
Yeah. I mean, speaking of this, like to me, a lot of the takeaways are like, please be judicious about your hiring panel as employer like, Please, please. So many, as to your point about candidates being also interviewers, looking at who they're gonna be working with, who they want to learn from, who they don't want to be around, all of those things are being assessed, who you put in front of the matters, right? And do they see themselves in certain places in the organization, right? We talked about D&I, right? Like, you know, hiring people, right is never a good thing. But also it could make a world of difference to that candidate, if they don't see, you know, someone who either looks like them or reminds them or is inspiring in certain way that isn't about just hard skills. Sometimes that is a missed opportunity that I've seen so many organizations just completely dismissed. Don't think about for whatever reason, right? It's not always intentional. I don't want to paint that picture. But it's just, you know, I don't know if you have any of those other sort of aha, or, you know, hidden gems, where it's like, just think about this and it can actually create a world of difference for candidate.

Casey Hasten
Well, and I think not just for a candidate just but just for a culture in general. So and I was just thinking about this as you were talking, if there is that one person that you might not want on your panel with that potential new employee, maybe ask yourself why? Because maybe that person doesn't belong here.

Chris Pitre
So yeah, no, I think that those because to me So if you actually go down that path, you actually start to really think differently about like, Wait, why would I not want a new someone on the current team to be in front of a new hire? And if they are that problematic, like, what other issues are they having? What other places? Should that not be showing up?

Casey Hasten
Exactly. Yeah, we're kind of dealing with that firsthand. So the only other thing that I would like to leave you guys with is I just ran across a report. And this is, and this is more towards the hiring companies, that you're not in charge anymore. Okay, I'm sorry, but you're not the case. This is a candidate's market. This survey was done by PwC. And it said that 65% of the workforce is currently looking for a new job. And that number goes up. If the company announces that they're going to make them come back into the office full time. Yeah. So people have proven they don't have to be in the office to get the work done. You know, and but they do want some in office because they need that interaction, but work with your people ask them what they want. Don't tell them what they're going to do, because that's just not going to work anymore. And on top of that, just to kind of prove a point about that I do absolutely believe this report, is the survey is true? Is that right? Before I came on here, I was doing a search for one of my clients. And the first thing I always do is I put in years of experience. And then I do, I want to make sure that they've been at the company that they were with for at least one year. So I do years of experience, I get 4.7 1000 hits too many, of course, but I haven't done all my other keywords. But I do the next one. And I say I wanted to at least been in their current role for at least a year, that number dropped to 1.6 1000. Wow, that is incredible.

Chris Pitre
Yeah. Yeah, it's just a testament to the times. People are looking and I think your message around like, really, as a hiring manager, as leaders of a business as you know, potential sort of leaders have a business, like, it's no longer your game. Right? Like, and it's for so long, it's been that way. But changing that and, you know, putting out decrees and demands and, you know, expecting people to do what you want, just because you have a title is no longer going to be effective. And, you know, as we have the most diverse, you know, across generations in the workplace, like we have so many generations in the workplace at one time. Like it's, it's only going to create, you know, further issues if command and control and hierarchy are the are the ways that we've operated in the past. And it's it's impacting the ability to bring in candidates for an interview, let alone offer them something, and then see those offers be accepted, so

Casey Hasten
And that they actually start on their first day. Shopping those offers.

Jeff Ma
Yeah. All right. Last quickfire question for you? What is the most important question a candidate can ask in their interview to the company?

Casey Hasten
I'm actually I want to turn that around. Because I have a little technique that I teach my candidates. And so it's the most important answer that they can give. And, one, it's really around that icebreaker question. Tell me a little bit about yourself, right? And the reason that I think this is such an important question is because people are going to form and I can't remember how quickly it is. But they form their first impression of you, whether they like you or not within like, what the first 30 seconds. And that's when this question usually gets asked, this is your time to shine, make that good impression. And so I tell people to think about your answer to this to be like a commercial, okay. And the reason I use a commercial instead of an elevator pitch is because there's a couple of things about a commercial that keep us from changing the channel. One, they're short and sweet. And two, they have a hook. Right? There's something that keeps you from changing the channel. And so what I want my candidates to do when they answer this question to build that rapport very quickly, is I want them to take something off their resume that's not readily apparent. And I'll give you an example here in just a minute. And I want them to tell a story about it. I want them to engage Think of it like their audience. And so in the in the analogy I give later is that I want you to be dancing around in their head when they're interviewing other people. That's how strong this hook needs to be. Okay, I want you thinking about it. Do y'all remember the commercial puppy monkey baby?

Jeff Ma
No, that sounds very familiar. It was a Superbowl commercial.

Casey Hasten
Yes, this weird creature, this puppy monkey baby that walks in and I saw it like 25 years ago. And this thing still dances in my head. That's a hook. Right? Yeah. And so for me and the example I give to them, my hook would be in the Tell me a little bit about yourself is so as a recruiter, networking is very important to me and I have my liaisons listed on my resume. Right? So I would start with, as you can see, I'm a member of success, North Dallas, and also that I'm their chief of staff, and I'm a member of several other organizations. But what does that really tell you? It doesn't tell you a lot. So let me tell you what being Chief of Staff for success North Dallas means. It means I'm the first face that people see at each event, and that I am the one that is making those connections and introducing the right people at the right time. I'm so good at this that people often refer to me as the networking ninja.

Jeff Ma
Networking ninja sticky. Nice. I love it. Casey, I wanted to save a little bit of time to make sure you can share with the audience as well. How they can reach you how they can contact you or anything you're working on. So I want to give you that space right now.

Casey Hasten
Awesome. Awesome. Well, I do not sit still. I'm sure y'all can tell. And my computer is slipping guys. I'm sorry. So I, you can find me on LinkedIn. It's just my name, Casey Hasten. You can also go to my personal website, CaseyHasten.com. That's where you're gonna learn about all the fun stuff I'm doing right now. My coaching my media appearances, the podcast, but also coming in Q3, we I am launching a new journal, it says journal/planner that is going to be the be all end all of all journals ever, ever because it has everything you need in one place. So it's six different sections. It's got mindset, affirmations, efficiency, so your habit stacking, goal setting, productivity, and even finance.

Chris Pitre
Wow. That is mega, mega sort of sandwich of all the things you need to keep your personal and professional life super organized and together. Sounds awesome. And I've seen it so it's awesome.

Jeff Ma
Casey, thank you so much for taking the time today. It really, really great conversation here around this world that I'm not a part of, but you make it you kind of sold it to me. I'm like, maybe I should get into some recruiting. That's a lot of fun. It sounds great. You make it sound great. I really, really appreciate the time today, Casey,

Casey Hasten
thanks so much for having me.

Jeff Ma
And thank you to our listeners as well. As always, we really appreciate you tuning in. We do have new episodes every single week without fail. So please keep tuning in. Subscribe, tell a friend. And as always check out our book Love as a Business Strategy available everywhere. Chris, thank you for joining me today as well appreciate you being a co host today. And with that you're signing off. See you guys next week.