Maggie McClurkin
Hey, Chris.

Chris Pitre
Hey, Maggie.

So it's just the two of us today, I thought it would be cool was to have kind of those deeper conversations around each chapter of the book. And maybe not necessarily the entire chapter, but something out of each chapter and have just a candid conversation. So I invited you today because your story about you and I is in chapter one.

So for context, Chris, will you just give us a quick version of the story in case people haven't read it yet?

Sure. So a while, back, before we publish the book, we had a lot of things going on. And Maggie, you were asked to lead a number of initiatives around marketing, website, and all of these sort of, I would say high, high visibility, high risk, high profile projects, and you were new to the organization, you were to the organization that you are now of course, but you were also sort of trying to get your bearings on a lot of things between transitioning from a client project into this work. Let me know if I'm not getting context accurately.

No, that's correct. It was my very first like, internal project ever, I was on this one large account my whole time at Softway up until this point.

And so and I was sort of the sounds like a really fancy title, I was the executive sponsor, work that you were in, right. So it was under my purview is something that I was accountable for to the rest of the organization, including Mohammad, the CEO. And in the midst of all of that, a lot of other things were swirling in plate spinning, not as an excuse, but you would be setting up these one on ones to get time with me to go through what you were struggling with what you had questions on what you needed direction on, just like it was big and small stuff. So it wasn't that, you know, it was just like, oh, my gosh, I needed help with everything. It was like you had some very pointed needs that you needed addressed. And you wanted it to be a collaborative decision and discussion versus you just making a guess, or not knowing what I truly wanted or needed or expected. On my end, I didn't know all of that. And I'm telling it in hindsight, right. But I didn't know all of that. And so I would be in meetings back to back. And a lot of my meetings would just keep going over and over. And it would unfortunately, impede with or compete with your one on ones. And in my head. I would just say like, Maggie knows that I'm in these meetings, she knows she can see my schedule, she knows, she knows that I wouldn't just stand her up. Right. And like that was, again, my, my mind telling me that right? That was my, my fault. So you usually can say, not that this is something that other leaders or anybody else should be doing. But this was just the, the way I justified, you know, continuing on as is. And then one day you were you know, bold and brave to say like, Chris, we're having this one on one, I need you to come to this one on one, can you make this one on one, and I really need you to be there. Now I'm putting emphasis on it. But she was nice. She was polite. She wasn't like just like, No, you better be like it was style. But I could tell that you were serious about it. And you really wanted to have it. And I was like, Okay, I'll come right. And you know, this was when we were in person, this was pre COVID. So go into the room. And you know, you just sit me down and say, Chris, I feel like I'm not worth your time. I feel like you deprioritize things, and I keep trying to have these one on ones. And, you know, no matter what I do, you don't show up. And so this is how I'm feeling. And that was like a, like a slap in the face in the right way. And a good way, it was a good slap. And I was able to stop and really reflected like, holy crap this entire time. In my head, I've been thinking that you were okay. Because, you know, it was like a matter of business. And I was thinking of all the busy things that I was doing, but I wasn't thinking about your feelings at all, to be honest. And that made me stop and think like, oh, wait, like, she really wants time with me. And it took me back to when I was your age in your, you know, in your spot in my career. And if one of my senior leaders who I really was looking for doesn't meet with or who I just needed to align with, because I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I could make the wrong calls here and you might see something I don't see right and to not to like go back to that place and and not have that or not know why I was getting deprioritize would have been a nightmare. And so at that moment, I immediately apologized for not immediately we had a conversation and I apologized and I will wanted to figure out what can I do to make it right, right? I think anybody who's been on the sort of not so good side of an apology, right, is always thinking, What can I do differently? How would I make it right? What can I do right now versus later versus, you know, of course, change my actions and communication style, etc. And I felt so bad because right after that, I had to go out of town for business work. I was like, I'm no, I'm gonna miss our next conversation in my head. I'm like, I'm gonna apologize, but I know, I'm gonna keep missing, like, I'm not gonna be there next week, because physically, I'm going to be out of town. And so I just had the idea of like, I'm gonna have some flowers delivered. So even if I'm not there, something will be there to let her know that she means a lot to me. And she means a lot to this organization. And I don't want her to ever feel like because I because I missed those that that's really what's going on in my head that I don't value your time. So that was my side of the story. I'm sure I've missed anything. But that was, that was where I, I was at that moment.

Yeah, um, I two funny things. One, you put a note with those flowers. And it said, of course, you're worth my time. I'm sorry. I've been bad at showing it. And the only reason I really remember that is because it's on my, my right next to me. Yeah, it's right. It's right there the oh, this is hard. This little thing right there. Got it. So I kept it. And I, it's right there. And also, it must have been right before COVID When this happened, because I remember coming back to the office, maybe a year later to clean out all of our stuff. And those flowers were sitting on my desk, and they were they looked like a skeleton. I was like, Oh, like that. But yeah, so I, first of all, I'm sure a lot of people have heard this story before, when it's in the book, too. We've talked about it publicly many times. But what I really wanted to do in this, like short little conversation was just talking about okay, then what, like, we have this cute story where we got to tie it with a bow and it was sweet and great. But like, what happened after that? And how has our relationship grown? And where do you go after you have to have a hard conversation like that with a leader or a peer or anyone? Yeah,

I think, and I don't want to speak for you. But I think on both sides are also thinking like, how do we not make this awkward for them? Right, like, right, how do we like our next meeting? Our next one on one? How does it not be like this awkward, like, typical rom com like? Right, like? And how do we get back to a place where we can communicate, communicate, get back to work, collaborate, right? And not let that be? What defines the tenor of the conversation. And so I think immediately after that, I tried to make sure that you felt heard, but also asking you questions, where are we with this? How are you feeling about this? What can I help you with? Instead of trying to like, so how are you feeling about that conversation last week, like, getting some feedback on how to like, I think that is where some people tend to go with it, and that they'll that makes it unnatural. So for me, it was really about showing up to listen, like, what do you need? Like, let's get down to brass tacks, if that's where you are. And that was on my side, but not sure if you had any sort of tactics or things that you were doing to?

Yeah, I think the most helpful thing for me was the fact that and we didn't really talk about this book. But I didn't really realize we did this until now. But we kind of set some working agreements between the two of us of like, Hey, I'm not going to get upset every time you miss a one on one, I'm only going to get upset when you don't tell me that you're about to miss a one on one. And I'm waiting in the room for 20 minutes. And I didn't know you weren't coming. So it, it was good for me. And I want to say it was probably good for you to know, it's okay that I'm not perfect, but I need to just at least communicate that I'm not gonna be able to be there. And I think that aspect of it really helped us moving forward. Because I, I didn't want to, I didn't want you to feel like you were like, Oh, I don't want to trigger Maggie again, or I don't want to, you know, I'm like walking on eggshells around her from here on out. And I wouldn't want that personally for our relationship either. So I think that piece of it of like the practical, okay, this is going to happen again, like there's no way around it, like things like this are going to happen again. But how do we ensure that we're thinking about the other person moving forward, even if, you know, one of us fails to show up to one on one in the future? So I thought that was a really important piece.

And I like going back. Yes, that did happen. And we did have a conversation and that also makes it very easy to slip into the solution and the path forward versus sitting in that awkward... Right? Right. And I think that I've seen so many people like whether at work or just personally, like after an apology or crucial conversation, it never goes back. It just never, never recovers. And, I mean, there's a number of reasons why. And I think between you and I, because we, we both were intentional about committing to those working agreements, and then making sure that what we, what we were and what you were working on with me, was getting the attention, right, and where we had issues, even if it wasn't about a personal thing, we were able to return back to that place of like, okay, we know how to establish working agreements when something isn't working. And I think that that, I know, in the book that we talked about that a little bit in certain areas and certain places, but I think, you know, one of the things that I always love and reading books is if you can get the behind the scenes like, Okay, so now what then what happened to Maggie and Chris, like, Are they good? Are they not? Right? And I think, you know, if you are reading the book, and you're looking at that story, and it's really early into the book, I, I would say that, oftentimes, you've been on one side of that situation, right. And I know that I would not have had the courage that you had an idea to go and tell my boss, or anybody that had a title to change their ways, right. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't have I'm just saying, like, I like I didn't have that courage, but I also was in an environment with that would have been welcomed. And I think that that is, that's what makes our story also unique is that we had an environment where that was welcomed, and it's still welcomed, and it's something that we continue to work on and get better at, and, you know, figure things out. Right. And I think that if you, if you're reading the book, and you haven't found that in a workplace, you know, you have to start being that change, right?

Yeah. I think another like peek behind the curtain about this instance, is I was talking to my supervisor, because you weren't necessarily a supervisory role for me at that point. So I was talking to a more like, direct report type person about the situation before I had a conversation with you about it. And I was just like, Man, I'm just so annoyed, like, Well, how am I supposed to, like, get anything done. And I was just kind of, to be honest, just straight up complaining, like not, not thinking of any kind of solution, just really just wanting to like, be annoyed about it. And that person and one, one or two other people that I talked to about it really encouraged me because we have that culture. And like you said, Chris, I was newer. I'm not I wasn't used to being able to have these conversations with leaders. It really encouraged me like, No, you should talk to Chris about this. Like, it's not going to help you by coming to me, and complaining to me about it. Because I can't solve it. I can't make it right. Unless I go talk to Chris for you. Which that's really stupid, basically. And I was like, yeah, no, I don't want you to do that. I'm not 12 You know, like, I want to, you know, do handle it myself. And, and in that instance, of someone encouraging me to then go talk to my leader, which I've never done anything really like that before, in my career, has been helped me be a better mentor to people that come to me and are like, Man, I'm really annoyed about something that this other person did. I'm like, Okay, well, have you talked to them about it yet? And they're like, Well, no. Why don't you try that first? It sounds silly. But like, I also see it happening in my personal life to like, I live with women. I've lived I live with roommates. I will have roommates since college. And so we there's always conflict in roommate situations, because that's normal, and it doesn't, you know, whatever. But if one roommate comes to me, and it's like, I'm really annoyed that this other roommate didn't do this. And I'm like, did you tell them that you wanted them to? And they're like, Well, no. Go tell them like, it sounds so scary. But like, it doesn't have to be I guess is what I'm trying to say. Like, confrontation. That's like a really like, aggressive sounding word. It doesn't have to be angry. It doesn't have to be dramatic and emotional. It can be like in Chris, you say this, but, and I'm in Brene. Brown says this clarity is kindness. And that's something that I I personally try to practice not only at work, but at home and with friends and family because if people don't know my expectations, how do I why? How do I hold them to those expectations?

No, and I completely agree. And, you know, it's funny, you mentioned the fact that, you know, someone said it was be stupid for me to go and talk to Chris for you. But that happens in organizations. Yeah, like, the small little, it could have been a miscommunication, it could have been a misfire, it could have been a misunderstanding. But it turns into something bigger, because I, well, I'm gonna tell my boss to go and talk to your boss about this. And since we can't, is I'm not gonna go and confront you directly, I'm not going to have that conversation with you. And oftentimes, you miss the opportunity to build clarity or build perspective, right? You approach it without the idea of a confrontation happening, but instead of like, I wonder what else could be true of this interaction? Or why, like, why am I feeling this way? Why are they doing what they're doing? Right? And you're going in that like curious mind, you'll find that it actually will be a win win conversation, because both parties will walk out, like we did with an understanding of what the other party needs, but also how do we work together going forward? Right, and that's, that's where curiosity can lead to sort of these courageous events, but so many people are so afraid of the escalation side of it. Because when you don't have emotional regulation, when you don't have, you know, sort of the tools to be able to understand that most people do things not in spite of you or to attack you, but you are, you know, oftentimes either collateral damage or an unintended unintended impact. Right. And so just knowing that keep living and you'll be on one side of the or the other. Right? Yeah. And how are people approach it, you know, it makes a difference in how the outcomes end up being. And oftentimes, like, in my experience, when you like, when you approach it, the way that you approached it, Maggie with me, it isn't going to lead to this sort of like, you know, cold war situation that just keeps escalating where nobody is wanting to talk, or it's, you know, mind games after that, and we're just gonna keep trying to get even with each other without actually doing, you know, like, clearly out of bound things. And those are the, those are the realities that many people still face inside of their core, their companies and their teams. Yeah.

Maggie McClurkin
And we talk a lot about vulnerability in the book, and just in general, at Softway. We talk a lot about it, and about how that's kind of the key to building relationship with people. And I think a lot of times people hear that and think, oh, then I need to go to Chris and share that, you know, my grandmother's dog died today. And so like, I'm feeling really sad. Like, it doesn't have to mean that it doesn't have to mean disclosing. It can like, it definitely can and should, to some degree. But that was also a moment of vulnerability for for both of us, because I do think I cried in that meeting, probably, if I'm remembering correctly. And so that to me, I don't cry in front of people a lot. And so that to me, in and of itself, like me, being that frustrated about the situation and nervous to like, come to you and show those nerves was vulnerable to me, and then you apologizing and being humble about it was vulnerable, I'm assuming to you, and so that I think strengthened our relationship, like we were friendly before then it had a basis of relationship. But I feel like, from there on out, we had a much stronger relationship. And now be sure tiktoks.

Chris Pitre
Yeah. You know, it's crazy. It's like going back to that specific conversation. I remember like, in my head, I'm like, do I just tell her that I've been like, It wasn't intentional on here, all the things that I was doing while like, right, you, you, anyone who sort of put into that room would probably be thinking of like, how do I help her understand my side of this? How do I help her see that? This was not intentional, and like, there's all these other things and all these other plates spinning? And then I was like, I don't think she cares about that.

Well, I'll tell I'll tell you the story. And it doesn't sound like it will relate, but I promise it does. So I have a nephew, and he's four. And this year, so my sister had some accident where she broke her leg this year. And so she couldn't walk for, like two months, probably. And it happened to be over Halloween. So she couldn't go with her husband to take their three kids trick or treating. So I offered to go with them to like help keep track of all them. And so my nephew, it was his first Halloween, not in the pandemic where he could remember walk up to houses say trick or treat and so he's very excited. And so he got and he's very extroverted. He's like the most extroverted one in our entire family. And so he would go and go up with his sisters and knock on the door and say trick or treat and then he'd actually give them candy said, can I come look in your house? And you know, they would say most of them would just laugh and think it was cute and but usually it's a no, it's a no, but he, he, he knows how to ask for what he wants. And that's kind of a silly example. But like, you need to be able to ask for what you're needing in the moment. But also be okay. If it's a no, like, Chris, if you had come to me and said, Hey, I cannot guarantee you that this won't happen again. And it might happen all the time. Like, I had to be okay with that going into that conversation, I had to be the act of just bringing it up had to be enough in order to move forward, if you're going to go there and expect Chris to solve all your problems, or the symbol of Chris to solve all your problems, like, you're not going to walk away from that satisfied. So exactly. Yeah, that's just the last kind of piece that I've learned from it since then of like, just personally, but

I think that's a powerful way to end to be honest, because that is like that is maturity. Right? And if we had more of that inside of our workplaces, like, oh, my gosh, how far will we go? Mm hmm.

Totally. Well, thank you for joining me for this conversation, revisiting that very fun conversation that we had. We're looking forward to doing more episodes like this in the future. Just deep diving into small aspects of each chapter of the book. If you have not read the book, you can find it on Amazon. You can find it on our website, loveasabusinessstrategy.com We would love for you to get a copy and tell us what you think. So with that, and talk to you guys later.