Jeff Ma
Hey folks, we have some exciting news for you all. We have just launched a brand new company founded on the tenets of our love as a business strategy philosophy, the same philosophy that you've grown to know and love. This new venture is called Culture Plus, Culture Plus is a culture as a service company that provides training experiences, consulting services, and digital tools to help companies achieve high performing and high reliability cultures and teams. To learn more, visit culture-plus.com. That's culture-plus.com. And now, let's get to the show. If you've ever felt stuck in your business or leadership, today's episode is for you. Jon Dwoskin is a business coach that specialises in helping leaders get unstuck and grow their business and we asked him what role does love play in that equation? Enjoy the show. Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the centre of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm joined today by co host and co author Frank Danna Frank, how's it going today?

Frank Danna
Hey, Jeff, I'm feeling good. This button up shirt is very uncomfortable. For those that are watching the video. I'm wearing a button up shirt.

Jeff Ma
Which is if you follow the show, through video somehow, which I don't think is very many. You'll know that that's that's different. So good job, Frank way to mix it up. Thanks. Thanks so much. Every episode Frank, we'd like to dive into one element or person of business and strategy and test our theory of love against it. And today's guest is Jon Dwoskin. He's an executive advisor, business coach, and he's the founder and CEO of the John Dwoskin Experience. He's known for being a business coach who will get you unstuck and grow your business big. So welcome to the show. Jon. How's it going? Thanks,

Jon Dwoskin
Jeff. Thanks, Frank. It's great. It's great to be here. I appreciate you guys having me on the show. Thank you very much.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. And before we get going, we have icebreakers that I make Frank do first what that you get seconds, so you have time to think that's how we treat our guests. Right. So the question today, and people think we, we,we ,we. Like, prepare for these. We really don't Frank is like, genuinely nervous for these. So I love it.

Frank Danna
What am I gonna do? This?

Jeff Ma
No, this is an easy one. If you could eliminate one thing from your daily routine. What would it be and why?

Frank Danna
Eliminate one thing from my daily routine.

Jeff Ma
Okay, maybe it's not that easy.

Jon Dwoskin
It's. I got an answer. I'll go first. Frank, please. Please go first. Yeah, right. Well, I'll I'll answer one for you, which is go back to wearing maybe T shirts or non collared shirts,

Frank Danna
right? It's itchy, right?

Jon Dwoskin
I stopped wearing. I used to wear a suit or three piece suit pandemic kit. And all I do is wear black T shirts for the last literally 18-19 months. It's great. I don't have to think about it. It's perfect. But I would say for me my routine that would that I would break would be eating past eight o'clock. Then night that night eating is like it's a dangerous trap.

Jeff Ma
Yeah. Yeah, that's the reason I don't fit in any of my three P's.

Jon Dwoskin
It's been a lot harder to break post COVID When you you know, like those, that those nightly habits of like, you know, both my kids I have a 18 and 15 year old but, you know, I mean just those knightly DiGiorno pizzas and boom, baked goods. It's just, it's hard to break the the cosiness of that it tastes better after eight. It tastes better. Everything tastes better after eight o'clock. 759

Jeff Ma
rice 801

Frank Danna
delivery. Oh, yeah, she's not delivery. It's DiGiorno I think. For me, it would be chores like I would love to eliminate chores from a daily routine. Like, see if I could have a mad wave a magic wand and not have to do chores. That would be it. Yeah, I think just kind of eliminating washing the dishes every night. The worst but not putting it on my wife not putting it I say like, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna eliminate it from my life and also just place it onto her life. I literally am saying they're done magically. That's yeah.

Jon Dwoskin
You know, and that's the best that's why I say this in college. I was laughing about this with my wife and my son or my daughter the other day. We there's a place here called ABC warehouse. I don't know if you guys have one of those by where you live, but it used to so growing up every time you bought something you got sets of dishes. And so when I went to college, we had like 20 sets of like these kind of cheap dishes in our garage. And so when I lived with my buddies, anytime the dishes got too dirty, we just threw them away. We just throw it all away. And then you know, I go home and just like get a new box additions. So

Frank Danna
they're incredible. That's incredible.

Jon Dwoskin
Trying to give you a solution, Frank read

Frank Danna
I could price it out. Where the?

Jeff Ma
For me if I could just push a button in the morning, and it just just sent my kids directly to school or the bus stop. That would be incredible. Like I could do without that. That morning routine? For sure. Yeah. Anyways, that was that was Sprager. Thank you,

Jon Dwoskin
John, one thing because I think as you're talking about routine, I would love your guys. I was talking about this with somebody the other day where to me, I think the next there's no like at night, you it's like to cook, I think it's tiring at night. And so I thought I was saying to somebody that I think the next level of Instacart is there's a special group of people in Instacart, who will buy the ingredients and then come and actually cook the food. And then and then another level where they'll wait and actually clean the dishes.

Jeff Ma
You just you just described a personal chef, I guess. I mean, right. But like

Jon Dwoskin
but but but yeah, it's Instacar, right? You know, like you go to Uber. Right? Uber, Uber XL, Uber, you know, there's like different levels, you could do a chef, correct Uber like Instacart chef, where they come they cook everything.

Jeff Ma
You know, John always had a great idea. It's like it's both a great idea and scary that it's a great idea. Because that shouldn't be a great idea. And like, you know what, how about like, like Uber Eats plus plus, where they show up and then they don't even have to move they'll put through a mouth. They'll feed you wipe your mouth for you.

Jon Dwoskin
Well, I'm not talking about like making you a can of soup. Although, by the way, for elderly people, it could be a great solution

Frank Danna
that could be lucrative. Yeah, yeah, we're building a business on this podcast right now.

Jon Dwoskin
Right? You would you pay $50 to get groceries and maybe at eight at seven o'clock at night. $100 To have somebody come cook it. I would. And then $130 $30 to clean up. That's the date.

Jeff Ma
I don't know if I pay that extra $8 To live stranger in my house to be honest.

Jon Dwoskin
We let strangers drive. Or we let strangers drive us every day with Uber. I don't think I've ever think about it. Man. They're better.

Jeff Ma
Place. Yeah, right now hold on. I'm gonna pencil Jon down for another episode where we dive into this business idea.

Jon Dwoskin
Right? No, it is an idea. It's a billion dollar idea.

Jeff Ma
I'm with you. Yeah. And, and now we're gonna we're gonna partner up. We're gonna make this happen.

Jon Dwoskin
Yeah, we'll call it like, Chewber or something. Yes. Right. Yeah. All right.

Jeff Ma
Well, Jon, let's talk about you. We'll talk about definitely gonna dive back into that business right off the air. But let's talk about

Jon Dwoskin
yours. We'll go 30 I'm all about sharing the wealth.

Jeff Ma
John, a high level high level tell us about yourself and your passion in life.

Jon Dwoskin
My passion is from a business perspective. My passion in my personal life is our my wife and my kids and my and my dogs and my family. And, and my friends. My passion in my business life is working with. I don't know if you can hear me out when I talk. I can hear myself. Can you guys? Oh, there we go. So Franco. Israel. Yeah. So my passion in my business life is and I'm so passionate about it. I love it. I love it, which is I work with successful people who are stuck and I get them unstuck. And I'm a business coach. I podcast a lot. I blog a lot. I write a lot. I have a book. But my keynotes are coming back but my the majority of my business is one on one coaching. And I work with solopreneurs to Fortune 100, fortune 500 Fortune type people and everything in between. and, and everybody wants to know well how do you work with them? Well, typically I'll do a three hour deep dive and then everybody gets put on a maintenance programme of 15 minutes a week or 30 minutes every other week. And then I'm always accessible anytime my clients need me in between. I'm always on call and return every call text email, same day. because it's about the real time help that they need, not just when we meet, that's kind of a high, high level I work with C level execs, leaders, I work with managers, because most managers don't know how to manage people, salespeople, because most salespeople don't know how to sell. And leaders, because they don't know how to lead, especially through this new world's most COVID. World. And, and I work with him on everything you can possibly imagine.

Jeff Ma
I'm sold. I'm curious. I'm curious. In the Venn diagram of the Dwoskin experience, yeah, and let's just say love. Tell me about that overlap. What is what is love live in the past experience

Jon Dwoskin
lives? It's though it's the whole foundation. I mean, I, I have always kind of evolved my career through fulfilment. And about 25 years ago, I read a book called The Seat of the Soul by Gary Zhukov. I don't know if you've read it. It's a phenomenal book. And in it, what he talks about is that the ideal soul is when the personality, the ideal human being is when the personality ends, and the soul begins. And I remember 25 years ago, when I read this, I thought, hmm, I'm out of alignment, right? Because I know what my soul is. But I was kind of more brash, in a business in a business environment. Then my soul was and so and I didn't know how to, to I didn't know how to I didn't know how to how to level that off, right. But but it was a it was a big awareness for me. And so and so that just that line, that book, right, and it, it kind of morphed it for me. And so I thought, all right, and then a quote by Tony Robbins, which is one of my favourites, which is success minus fulfilment, equals failure. And so through my careers, and we can, if you guys want to know about that, I can share that with you in a little bit. But I've always kind of moved towards fulfilment, my ultimate fulfilment, because my dad, when I was 18, gave me a set of tape sets called the psychology of success by Brian Tracy, was I put it on my ears, Jeff, and Frank, and I knew it was what I wanted to do for a career. I knew I wanted to speak, I wanted to coach I wanted to write books I wanted to inspire people to be and to get to their highest potential. So I became obsessed with learning all through college. I mean, my whole life, I'm 49. Now, there isn't a day that goes by that I'm not growing myself, so I can help other people get to their highest potential. And I started this business, because everything what I was doing was not fulfilling. And I knew that I could either conform to corporate America, which is where I was, or move to fulfillments. And that's what I did. And in fulfilment is love. So I think it, it can't, they can't live without each other.

Frank Danna
And I'd like you to tell us a little bit more about the attributes of fulfilment, what are some of those attributes some of those, those elements of descriptors of what fulfilment can and maybe should look like in life in someone's life?

Jon Dwoskin
For me, it's about feeling grounded, and alignments. For me, it's about feeling like I don't have to over describe what I do to anyone. It just the energy of what I do. I'm not one I mean, I'm on this podcast, and I'm talking about myself, but I much rather talk about the Uber idea. The Shmoober idea that we have, right, then talk about myself, it's, I It's about being in a place where you're so in alignment in your unique ability, that you don't have to speak a lot about what you do, because it just comes out, your ability to speak at it to, to surrender to the universe, where things come through you because you're so in alignment, like sometimes, sometimes I'm coaching people, and I don't know, I get myself in such a zone. And it's such a state that I can see and hear things that they miss so clearly, that it it's like it comes the only way I can describe it as it literally comes through me. So I'll say, You know what I'm picking up on? I'm picking up on XY and Z, you know, does this make sense to you? And they'll be like, how do you how do you know that? And I just because I'm in their energy space, because I'm in alignment, I can be in I can get them aligned. Nice. So that's how I would just say it's like, it's more of a sense than it is like if you have to, if you have to over define or explain that you're in alignment, then you're probably not in full alignment. Right. I don't have to convince myself that I am because I am.

Jeff Ma
I think with our show love his business strategy One of the key kind of tones that we're always hitting on is around leadership and what leadership should look like, from our perspective. So narrowing in on that specific topic, can you, you know, that talk about that alignment when it comes to your perspective on coaching leaders and leadership skills, specifically? And to add on to that, How's that different from management skills?

Jon Dwoskin
Well, leaders, leaders have a big responsibility. Because leaders, you know, if you're talking C level type of leaders, 95% of the culture beats to their rhythm, the way they walk, the way they talk to everything that they do. So the business will have the level of love that the ultimate leader has, because everything trickles down from there. So if, for example, the leader is a yeller. It's very toxic for the whole organisation. Even if they yelled twice in a room full of people, right? If there's too many people in that room, you know, you're in trouble. And so especially in today, where we're in a, in a world with the great resignation, right, where people are more in alignment, because of COVID with their own personal values, like wait, I, I don't want to work for that. I don't want to be part of that. That's not in alignment with maybe they don't use these words, that's not in alignment with my soul. When I left my career in commercial real estate, I said to my boss, he said, Why are you leaving, like, you're doing great you this and I said, I love everybody here. It's just no longer in alignment with my soul. And he said to me, What the fuck does that even mean? And I said, I said, it means I made the right decision. So that was it, right. And so I think leaders have a responsibility to, to have a heart to have an HR department or an HR group that people can reach out to, right, because people need to communicate things more now than ever before. They have a responsibility to pick up the phone and actually, I think, call people and say, because a CEO can call somebody once a year on their birthday, or once a year on their work anniversary, right? Because the bigger the company, you can't touch everything. But to have certain time schedule to say, Hey, just wanted to say Keep up the good work, that the shelf life of that is a long, long time. Right? So I'll go go into companies like we don't know about XY and Z and edited out Baba, say, what? Why don't you have the CEO call? 40 people? Oh, well, they don't have time for that. Well, how do they not have time for that? I remember, my brother and I started an internet company out of college in 1995. Had my parents basement we ultimately sold it to at the time the largest Internet investment, largest internet's professional service firm in the world. And we met with borders because we're in Detroit. So they're at arbour. And they were like, we met with them a couple times. And we kept the same the internet is real. And they were like, No, with the guy to remember the person we met with a couple times. But they're like, No, I mean, am this Amazon thing, I'm putting some adaptation to it. But this Amazon thing isn't going to last and people aren't going to buy on the internet. And it's a fad. And, and I often sometimes joke that had borders, listened to my brother and I they'd still be around. But they weren't talking to their customers, right? We could point to a lot of, you know, different companies. So where where were the company? Where were the leaders talking to their customers? Because that data is kind of free. Right? So I think there's a responsibility for leadership today to communicate and get people more emotionally connected to the company. And you do that by having a very clear and concise vision. And you're walking and talking that vision and you're not the I think the CEOs of tomorrow, the leaders of tomorrow have to be accessible. Right? What am I things is for my coaching, I'm, if you are a one on one coaching client of mine, I am always accessible to you. I return every call text email, same day, I'm not going to pick up the phone, or an answer an email right now I'm on the I'm on with you guys. But every client of mine knows when they need me, I am there. And they're all respectful. And so the CEOs of tomorrow, so I saw my accessibility. And so the CEOs obviously can't have everybody just calling them there's got to be some chain of commands. But they've got to be approachable in the because the next decade, pre COVID studies were showing that by the year 2030 85% of the jobs that exist do not exist today. And some additional studies and people will point to COVID accelerating that through three to seven years depending on who you talk to. And so the the businesses of tomorrow are require more effective communication, right? Where people feel connected to the CEO. And the vision, not just the vision and some empty face. In my opinion,

Jeff Ma
I love that. Yeah, absolutely. I feel the same way. I love the way you articulated that. Thanks. I have a question around your philosophy, I guess I guess your tagline. you pride yourself in getting, I guess people unstuck is your term? Can you describe again, I'm kind of narrowing in on this focus on like leadership and leadership skills a little bit. But even more narrow here? Can you can you share kind of what being stuck looks like from a, a leadership or even better bonus points? From a from a cultural culture perspective, do you have any anecdotes or experiences that you can share there?

Jon Dwoskin
Yeah. I'm a big believer that the same level of consciousness that got you to where you are, cannot get you to where you need to be, you need to be, you need to be thinking differently. And sometimes people are stuck at let me just say this. So it's people are typically much closer to being unstuck, then than they think they are. And so from a from a, from a standpoint of kind of what that looks and feels like, it's when you can't seem to inspire people, when you can't seem to get people to grow, when you're not investing in your people. When you're when your sales are stagnant when your people lack energy. You know, leadership today is a huge responsibility, because the leaders have to infuse the culture and the energy of an organisation. And the shelf life is shorter, because the environment is so different. And so today, you're looking at companies that are, you know, the hybrid model is not going away. So it used to be you could you know, you know, management by walking around, right? You had a cup of coffee, okay, it's, it's a, it's a 30 hour, I'll make around, that'll take me an hour, okay. It's, it's 230 people the law in the offices at three o'clock, I'll make around and, you know, so So a manager, or a leader, sometimes of an organisation that is maintainable, they're walking around talking to people for three hours being able to touch all of their employees. Well, today, you, you can't do that today. And I don't think you're gonna be able to do it tomorrow. Because that hybrid worker who's more effective, more efficient, more fulfilled? Because they can, they don't have to drive an hour home to have dinner with their family? How do you connect with that person? So they are emotionally connected to the vision and you and the culture? And they still feel connected? And, and, and, and so what do you do? Well, everybody now needs more structure. Right? So structure is really important, because most people, what I find is, they cannot structure themselves. So it used to be it's kind of it's interesting, I find sometimes that the greatest athletes are sometimes people in the armed forces that come work in business environments, and sometimes, and sometimes they they don't do as well as people think. Because they think that they're that they can just structure themselves, when really, they're so used to working within a structure where the manager or the leader miss the opportunity to help them is to give them the structure and the roadmap needed. So they can then perform in there with into their highest potential, and then their ability versus saying, like, come on board, and then just let people be, you know, so when you take these people who are who can excel, but they need structure, and I find that I use as an example, because everybody needs more structure today. And the the working parent who's working from home needs a certain structure, right? And there's like three different variations of what that structure looks like. Right? If my kids were younger, right? I would I mean, I tipic you know, I would want my schedule to reflect their schedule more, so I could see them more. In today's world, I can do that. 20 years ago, I couldn't as much right. 10 years ago, I couldn't as much so as my values change personal values, and especially post COVID That's why we're seeing this great resignation. It to me it's about people are more in alignment with their personal values and want to be with a company that those values align. When they don't may they may not be able to articulate it, but they can sure, feel it. Yeah, and that lack of feeling. Yeah. And that lack of feeling is why they're gonna say You know what I'll leave, which we're seeing, I'll leave with no job because I'll find a job. And if I can't find a job, I'll go on Upwork, I'll do that out, I will figure out how to make some money until I can figure it out. So, so, so so so what is stuck look like, stuck looks like if you if your company doesn't have systems and processes and ways of over communicating and helping people put structure in and forecasting where your business is going to be 1-2-3 years from now, if your company doesn't have a succession plan of every single employee, If your business isn't recruiting, to make sure that, you know, you're you have the right people and you're building an org chart for the future, then you're already kind of stuck because you're not forecasting effectively.

Frank Danna
It also, it also feels like that also limits your ability to be resilient, right? Because what you're talking about is this very cyclical nature of business, that there will be a downturn at some point in time, depending on what organisation you're working with, or what industry you're in. And if we're not preparing for that, then we're ultimately you know, being ineffective. So if we're if we're in a good position as an organisation, that's the time where we need to be building more resilience. Right. But leaders aren't thinking like that, in regards to, I don't know, maybe it's just feeling like they they get to that comfort, comfort level that they don't want to push against that resistance. Yeah. What are you seeing in regards to that the need to build more resilience?

Jon Dwoskin
Yeah, well, resilience? Listen, I think I'm see I'm seeing a lot of it. I talked about resilience a lot. I love resilience. I love the word resilience. I love the word discipline, because resilience is how quickly you can bounce back. Right? So what we saw a lot of once Coen COVID hit, I was at a workshop for like, 3040 people, I think it was like March 12, of 2020. And everyone was like, is this COVID thing something and then like, the next day, the world shut down. So we were like, we didn't even know we were at like a Supersprint. And then march 1, march 2 of 2020, I was doing a keynote at a group where there was for some 100 people, and they then cancelled all of their international and domestic travel, because they were like, Wait, this may be something but we were all flying. No. I mean, everyone was like, just kind of, you know, and, and, and so then all of a sudden, you know, March, I remember the exact date, let's just say March 15, the world completely shut down. And people had to be resilient. Within two weeks, companies who had never been hybrid work from home, scared of it, thought it was a millennial thing. They were like, Whoa, we people don't have enough laptops, we don't have systems, we don't have processes. And so they had to be resilient. Well, that was reactive resilience. So proactive resilience is where you teach people, okay. I think part of being a leader today is taking teaching people and validating and giving them space to take care of themselves. Part of resilience is, hey, I want everybody in the company to meditate. So I as a business owner, and buying everyone in my company, the calm app, I want you to be able to recalibrate yourself. So you can be resilient. I want to encourage everybody to take a 20 minute walk every day. Because if you're not in nature, and you're not recalibrating and you're not diffusing your brain, you're not going to be able to be resilient. So so if you're at home, and you're listening to your dog's bark, and you're, you know, the, and you're making your kids lunch in the middle of the day, and you're actually more distracted, it's easy to come to the office, it's quiet. Right? And so you have to kind of give them the tools today, because most people will not take care of themselves. Most people will not invest in themselves. They they want a company to say here is a gym membership, even if it's a planet fitness, here is a meditation app, I've given you tools, I'm suggest they're not mandatory, but I want you to know that I value you to take care of you.

Frank Danna
I like I like the idea of understanding that. Resilience doesn't just mean resilience for an organisation to be able to rebound. It's also the personal ability to rebound or remove distraction and come back fresh, right? And I feel I feel like most often we're talking about operational resilience for organisations to get back to those business outcomes. But what we're talking about now is more about personal resurrect the ability as an individual to step back up and then push past through the resistance of whatever is whatever is there in front of us. Right. All right. I think that I think everyone needs To hear that think that's incredibly valuable.

Jon Dwoskin
Yeah, I just wrote an article for Forbes on it. Because I really think it's really, really important. And it's, it's something that I don't think companies are thinking about. And to me, it's kind of like, it's right in front of you. Now, if you have a business where you're, you know, you're you have independent contractors, you have people all over the world. I mean, that's different. Can you do that? Yes, but I'm talking about people who are on your payroll who are working for you full time. I mean, these people need a break, they need a break. You know, I do a lot of time management, I teach a lot about time management, that seems to be my most popular keynote that I do time management. And I became obsessed with metrics. When I was 18 years old, my dad signed me up for a Franklin Franklin planner, time management weekend, I was 18, I was youngest person by like, what felt like at the time, you know, 300 years 40, you know, worth it, I was a thing. But I became obsessed with time management. So I teach a lot of time management, simple, simple concepts, time blocking, how to organise your day, you know, things of that nature, but not simple to me not simple to the masses. And so you got to teach your people when I keynote, I talk about meditation and the importance of quiet time and doing something for yourself and you need a CEOs must, or leaders, they have to incorporate that because people are going to burn I, I would predict that people will burn out way faster in a hybrid model. Because they're not re energised by, listen, I just got an office, I haven't had an office for six years, I just got an office in June, it's great, I love my drive to the office, the ritual of an office, the coffee at a certain time at the office, right, there's like something about it that like, I'm not listening to my dogs bark, every time they see somebody walked by, because my dog's you know, sits in the room, he's the same colour as my chair. So I forget, he's there. And then he barks and scares the hell out of me, you know, everyone, I'm like, live on a podcast, or you know that. And so and so you need you need, that's right, the guilt of my kids kind of, you know, coming home, and I'm in my office in a meeting, and I can't go say hello to them. But I'm like, and I'm in a meeting and they're talking me through a door. It's like, there's all of these added pieces of that, that, that, that I think, you know, owners have to kind of fall into, and then lead and manage and just say, Hey, it's okay. Right.

Jeff Ma
I think one thing that you said, kind of stuck out to me as something that I would want to break into a little more, and not really not really challenge what you're saying but add on. Because I think I really feel this, I'm really thinking aligned to like this need to give people that the tools and show them that you know, that you value kind of their own mental health, their their personal kind of space and things like that. I think one of the challenges that I've seen working with with leaders, especially is that they don't start with themselves, though, like they don't, that you can convince them that, hey, you need to spend x amount of dollars on getting everybody an app or getting everybody you know, or, you know, allowing everybody to take certain amounts of times off things like the starting policies. But I've also seen that kind of fall flat when they themselves don't actually believe in that change, or that need or that because because what people end up getting is perks and benefits that are kind of empty behind kind of the the attitudes and behaviours that are still hitting them from leadership, or from their boss or their environment, right? So it's like, oh, great, I have this app provided to me by the company. But my boss is still saying, he's still treating me like, you know that I need to work X amount, and I don't matter. Right. And so these, I think there's this this, I want to I want to hear your take on that, I guess because I think it's it's much easier to advise people or coach people into here's some processes and tools that you can implement. But how do you get people to, you know, look at their behaviours and their own mindsets first.

Jon Dwoskin
Well, it's not it's not what you preach, it's what you tolerate. And, and leaders, you know, if they're saying one thing and doing another, they're just going to see a lot, you know, they're not going to see the retention that they want. And I think a lot of old school leaders, you know, when you talk about love and you know, love is a business strategy and you got to think with your hearts and you know, that like, Okay, I will after I you know, the bottom line makes sense. Right after I'll do that, you know, and so but Can you do both? I think you can do both. Right? Can somebody as an owner as a manager, you know, to me in an organisation, accountability is key. Right? Accountability with authority is key. Right, not an authoritarian, but accountability with authority is key. Training is key teaching people things. But everybody, in my opinion, needs a very detailed, specific and measurable business plan. Hey, here's what you need to do you need to accomplish this. Yes. Should you meditate? Yes. Should you take some time for yourself? Yes. Should you do this? Yes. But you also got to hit your goals. Right. So this isn't a spa, it's a business. But we understand mental health as well as a big thing. So here's your goals, every quarter, here's your goals every month, here's what we need to see every week, right? Because we need to grow as a business. If you're not doing that, then there's consequences. And those consequences should be laid out, right? In most businesses, you will get a you know, a verbal warning, and you'll get written up and you may even get let go. The obstacle is is that people are nervous right now to say, here's your business plan, here's what we're holding you accountable for. Because the leaders are nervous that people are gonna quit? Well, I don't want to be held accountable. Well, but this is a job. But if you but if you're gonna make me feel bad that it hit my goal, I'm gonna quit. Okay, but this is a company we need to grow, make money, we need to do what we say we're going to do. So then you reverse engineer that. You got to you got to hire the right people. Right, you have to recruit really well. Because at the end of the day, people still have to do their jobs. Now to answer your deeper question, a leader who says one thing, but then make somebody feel guilty for doing something. Right? The opposite, hey, I want you to, I want you to take time with your family. Okay, we're going to go on a long weekend, and I'm going to take Friday off, okay, but I expect you to take all my calls. Because when I need when I say jump, I expect you to jump. Right. That's how the leader is going to see people leaving the company, right? I don't think guilt is the characteristic of the future of what people are going to live by. And I think the more people realise that they, you know, sometimes I run this, I talked to come I talk to people, I say, What do you I don't have my phone anywhere around me, but but it doesn't matter. But I'll say what do you make a year? And they'll say, I'm just throwing out throwing out a number, you know, $100,000 a year, right? I'll say, okay, so if you let I want to just I don't know where my phone is? Oh, here it is. So I said how many hours a day? How many hours a week? Do you work? Right? So they'll say, Well, I work 45 hours a week, okay, 45 hours a week. So that's about 180 hours a month, times that by 11, which is about a little shy of $2,000 a month of vacations and holidays, etc. So if you make, let's just say $80,000, right? And you divide that by 2000 hours, that's $40 an hour. And so I think what people are starting to realise is Wait, I couldn't I couldn't figure out a way to make $40 an hour, my babysitter gets $15 an hour. So all I got to figure out is right, my misuse gets $100 an hour. And I'm at and I'm getting $40 an hour. So what could I do? That could make me $4 an hour, because I don't want to feel this type of pressure. Right? Now. There's difference between pressure of a business plan and pressure of a business plan. And then feeling like people are overstepping what I'm hearing you say, overstepping the line, preaching one thing and then expecting something else?

Jeff Ma
Well, what I'm saying is also, I think, where a lot of people need coaching is is how to hold people accountable.

Jon Dwoskin
Right. Yeah, I do that a lot. I do that on my work. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Ma
Because that's what I'm saying is that I completely agree with you. It's a business. We have our goals. And I see the problem you're stating as well, which is, you know, people it's it's sometimes hard to and this is this is a problem. This is your in my wheelhouse now, because when we teach love as a business strategy, one of the top things that comes up is, well, how do you be nice to people all the time. And I have to demystify that right away. Like you're not nice people all the time. You're, you're empathetic, which is different, right, but you're still holding people accountable. And I think that's where I see the biggest gap at times because Absolutely, we need to hold people accountable. But I think people are more upset by how you hold them accountable than necessarily being held accountable sometimes right.

Jon Dwoskin
But I'll get into the crevice of that, Jeff, because I think what it is also it's a training issue. So there's there's different generations So, like, there's generations where it's kind of like, like, I'm 49. I don't know how old you guys are, but I'm 49. And so there's, there's, you know, when I was younger, whether I had my own business, but more when I was in corporate America, there's certain things you had to figure out. Right. But the companies that figured it out, that had really great training, so they always had training on the crevices of everything. So it was kind of like, hey, we need you need to evolve here. It's not like, Okay, go figure it out. It's like, hey, you need to evolve here. Like I work with a lot of companies, I'd say, hey, these, these 10 people in the company are great, this person's making a half a million, this person is making 100,000, this person's making 2 million, 3 million, 5 million, that, but here's the crevice of where they need training, they can't see it. So then, so then they will invest in me to coach a lot of the people within their organisations in the nuanced areas that they need training and coaching in. Right. I think it's the the CEOs that aren't that I should say, the CEOs, but the C levels, and those are people that that are not investing in the training of their people, and just expecting them to build the narrative of what's in their head that they're not even articulating properly. That makes sense. Yeah,

Frank Danna
that's a good point. I think that's very interesting that there's not a level of training now, from, like you said, the crevices is an interesting kind of, it's like the the edges, right, like smoothing out the edges buffing out the elements that need to be brought out that are blind spots, for most people, blind spots for yourself, and being willing to say, Hey, I, I haven't had the same life situation that you've had, Jon, I have not gone through the same experiences that you've had, or been in the same business encounters that you've had either. And so your experiences and seeing my, my way of doing business, you're going to be able to notice those things. Right. And one of the one of the kind of the statements that we like to talk to talk about is being honest, over being harmonious. Yeah, because there's the necessity of being honest, is reducing the fake harm harmony that everyone wants to have. Right? Right. Because if if, if there's just a nice culture, and that's what your your goal as a leader is getting to the position of being nice with each other. Yeah, ultimately, that harmony is not real. It is kind of created in the vacuum of not wanting to be honest with each other, right. And when we're saying honesty, I'm not talking about like, rude, or purposefully, you know, attacking people in a way that kind of cuts them down. But creating an environment where that honesty creates accountability, right. And if you're able to create, actual and have honest conversations with people about areas that they need to improve, or things that you've seen, it creates opportunity for accountability. And that also gives people a chance to see that they are cared for. Right. So to me, kind of what you're saying, it all makes sense to me and sort of like, building towards a goal of business outcomes, right? If I'm cared for, and I see that my my C level, my leadership team is interested in investing in me. And guess what I'm going to do, I'm going to put forth the effort, yeah, I'm going to work because I see the value, they see the value in me and I see the value in sticking around, right. And that, to me is kind of 100%

Jon Dwoskin
and you got to be as a leader, you have to be able to say tough things in a tactful manner. You got to be able to say things that in with a with a cadence and with a tone that is not hurtful and lead and lead people there, but still be honest. Right? And so it's a balance between nice and tough and tough and nice. And being tough doesn't mean that you're an a$$$ole. It just means you're holding people accountable. That's why you need a business plan. Because you need to be able to point to the, to the numbers to give somebody the object Correct, right? Like hey, you said you were going to do x and you forget 90% of it. You got to 50% So what happened? What can I help you with? And how can you help yourself? Right? Yeah,

Jeff Ma
absolutely. John, there's a lot more I want to dive into including our new venture that we're going to partner up on yeah, I'm excited about

Frank Danna
this thought about a name I'm calling it chef to you, but it's the number two in the letter you it's not very good. It's a first pass. I need some feedback on this. I

Jon Dwoskin
like I like it and it's and the you can have like a tongue like you know like a slurping up the possum

Frank Danna
on now. Yeah, I'm on No.

Jeff Ma
John, before we part ways, though. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about your podcast your business? How can how can listeners reach you?

Jon Dwoskin
I appreciate that. Well, anybody can call me on my cell phone 248-535-7796 I give it to every every podcast everything I give it you know everywhere. I'm a big believer, I answer my own phone. I make my own calendar. I promote accessibility I and I am accessible. My website is Johndwoskin.com. And through that you can get to all my stuff you can get to my blogs, my tips, my videos, my podcast, I think business think business with John Dwoskin podcast, and it's on every platform, but you can get everything through Johndwoskin.com.

Jeff Ma
Awesome. Yeah. And, John, I do really appreciate you taking the time today to share that knowledge, drop that wisdom. And, you know, just in general having this really great conversation, so thank you so much for being here.

Jon Dwoskin
Thanks. I appreciate you both. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it, right. Yep. And to our

Jeff Ma
listeners, thank you as well. Please be sure to check out our book. I'll never stop plugging it and I'll say it every week. Love is a business strategy. Best Selling Wall Street Journal book available on Amazon where you want to go get books, it's there. Subscribe rate the podcast if you can visit Johndwoskin.com. Tell a friend about all of us, Frank, thank you for joining us as well. And with that, everybody.