Jeff Ma
I'm going to be honest, today's episode was essentially a free therapy session for Mohammad and myself. Roxanne Derhodge is a registered psychotherapist and corporate consultant that specialises in helping senior leaders develop authentic leadership. We really take this opportunity to dig into all of our own personal questions, and she dumps a whole lot of wisdom on us. I think you're going to get a lot out of this one. So enjoy the show.

Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from, we believe that humanity and love should be at the centre of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I'm joined today by my co host and co author, Mohammad Anwar. Hey, Mo, how is it going?

Mohammad Anwar
It's going good, Jeff. Thank you for having me again.

Jeff Ma
We get a lot of time together. I love it. And as always, we invite a guests to come and talk to us about business, strategy and like to test our theory of love against that. And so today, our guest is a registered psychotherapist, corporate consultant, keynote speaker, trainer, author. It goes on and on. She works with corporations to help senior leaders develop their leadership styles to enhance connections to themselves. And she's a member of the Forbes Executive Council and accomplished keynote speaker and a best selling author. Like I said, I don't have enough time to go through all of those things. But I'm excited to introduce and welcome to the show. Roxanne Derhodge, thank you for coming to the show.

Roxanne Derhodge
Thanks for having me, guys.

Jeff Ma
So before we dive into all this, Roxanne, we have a little bit of an icebreaker we usually do. But I've learned that it's much more comfortable to make Mohammad go first. So I will make him go first.

Mohammad Anwar
It's uncomfortable for me too Jeff. Still,

Jeff Ma
okay. Yeah, that's okay. I love it. Okay. So today's question is, if you could live anywhere in the world for the next year? What would it be? easy one,

Mohammad Anwar
Hawaii. Of course. I just love Hawaii. And I would love to live there one day, maybe. So yeah, if you told me to go live somewhere for one year, that's where it'd be.

Jeff Ma
Here's one of those places That's way better to visit than it is to live just from really, from the like, it's just different when you live somewhere because of the economy and all that stuff. But anyways, not to put a damper on your answer. Good answer. Of course, Hawaii is wonderful. I apologise. Same question, if you could live anywhere in the world for the next year? Where would it be?

Roxanne Derhodge
It would be Tobago? Oh, interesting.

Jeff Ma
Any reason

Roxanne Derhodge
why I grew up in Trinidad and Tobago, I spent a lot of time as a young child. The only thing is, there's about two minds if spending the year there would mean disconnection from a lot of things that you would probably get in Hawaii Mo but it's untouched. It's not commercial. It's gorgeous. Probably some of the best diving in the world. And quiet so I think I would do that.

Jeff Ma
Quiet What's that? Like? Alright, awesome. Roxanne. I tried to write your intro and I ran out of space, you know, like so much that you do so much. So much expertise you hold so I wanted to give a little bit a chance for you to tell us a little about yourself. You know, what are your passions? What's your background?

Roxanne Derhodge
Well, my passions have always been to allow others to have connection to the true true authentic voice. I was I my little girl from Trinidad Tobago, grew up in a little village called diamond village, which was very, very interconnected. And we my neighbours were like my family and so grew up very extended with mostly South Asian Indian background and we kinda ran you know, five siblings for six in total so ran kind of out and about in the neighbourhood where I lived is Bilborough, it was a lot of a cane field. So the cane fields were playgrounds where we would jump in the you know, the puddles in between and go fishing and it was really quite lovely to grow up there. And I still go back and when I still go back, it's exactly the same which I love.

Jeff Ma
Amazing. And so what about that, that I'm sure a long and windy road that brought you to where you are today. Tell us a little bit about that.

Roxanne Derhodge
Well, like I said, I would say that some Even amidst the love of growing up the way I did, there was definite uncertainty that I recognised that my parents had between themselves in their marriage. So there was interconnectedness, but definitely, I would say a bit of dissension. So and I remember kind of A times feeling like, I couldn't really see what I was feeling as a child. And the Caribbean, most of the islands are British system, kind of stoic and keep it in, don't talk much about that. And I went to an all girls private school, and I remember having a meeting with with the counsellor because I thought, well, I'm going to talk, you know, but what I'm feeling and there was no room. And from that point, I kind of thought, you know what, I wonder if there's something that you can do for like, a job like this, because everybody was going to, you know, law school and medical school and things like that, and I just knew I wasn't the right fit, potentially. And at that point, I thought, why I wonder if I could and, you know, hence, I'm talking a long time ago, the concept of psychology entered my world. And I realised that I also had the ability to connect the deep level with my friends, and I felt better. And I, you know, from what the feedback they gave me, they felt better. And at that point, that was the inception of I'm going to become, you know, a psychotherapist, whatever that was going to entail and made the decision quite young and left Trinidad when I was 16, to go to university in Toronto.

Jeff Ma
Awesome. And, and then yet another gap, I guess, to traverse is from there. Today, you know, you're working with businesses and leadership, executives, like where did that connection, kind of fun, please?

Roxanne Derhodge
Well, I did the traditional, you know, getting into the field, right, so I had a perception of what it was. And I started with being a trauma responder with the metro Toronto Police, and quite young. And soon after, kind of going into the traditional frontline, I started into corporate consulting, where the health and wellness field, you know, afforded the capacity to do things like consulting, trauma, responding, strategic planning, with companies about what might keep employees away from work, so what psychological factors would potentially be the things that kept people away from work and I started working in in it was, it's called the Employee Assistance field, in in my mid 20s, and decided at that point that I wanted to do a little bit, have more of a wider reach at that point. So my use my background, to work as an executive, to be able to, to, to bring what I knew, not just as a therapist, but also from having been at every point of contact with employees to bring that to the strategy to, you know, the corporate teams, the senior level teams that I would report to so I would report sometimes to middle managers all the way up to the CEOs depending on you know, what was happening in the in the organization's

Jeff Ma
I find that incredibly, just not just interesting, but it feels so impactful to me to have the toolkit that you have, you know, this background in psychology in, in the matters of the mind, and that, that that kind of the ability to analyse in that space, but combined with you know, the corporate experience and all that is something that in our line of work, we're we're consistently dealing with culture and people and really behaviours at the centre of it. It just seems like I'm very excited to to kind of pick your brain around, you know, what you've learned and seen, especially from that angle from that expertise that you hold. please?

Roxanne Derhodge
Well, I think people are people. And when we look at culture, it's really people want to feel that they're making a difference. You know, like most of us, we spend most of our time in, you know, work environments. And I believe that for the most part that regardless of the you know, I worked with hospitality legal hospitals, over my tenure is that, whether I was rolling out the programme with the frontline employee all the way to the senior executive team that everybody wants to make a difference, however, be couched in context of culture, sometimes, certain cultures. There's almost like implicit and explicit rules around what that particular sector should be like. So let's say it's legal, for instance, you're not supposed to show your vulnerability. So when I worked with the Law Society of Upper Canada, where I dealt with, you know, pretty high level senior people, I quite literally would go in and it would give you service Probably God, I was 24. And I would go and report on the trending analysis about what was happening with lawyers across Ontario, which is our province here in Canada. And, you know, I was like, like, literally sweating bullets, because I felt like I was on the criminal witness stand, quite figuratively. And they were lovely people. But at the end of the day, they were there to shake me down about what I really knew about what I really knew. And it was interesting, because at the end of the day, we were coming up with what what needed to be shifted, but some sectors are not open, they will say they want to be open, potentially, to what is happening in legal and at that point, you know, was retention of female lawyers around the age of 32, to 35, that were maybe wanting to create a family or have some different options, and a lot of them were leaving, you know, huge law firms were and starting their own practices or going into as a company, solicitor, because they didn't, the options were were less than desirable for them. And so I would go in, we would report that it over and over again. And it was like, nice, nice now. But there was not much change. So I think it depends on the sector, right? manufacturing, compared to banking, compared to healthcare, you're gonna get a different tempo to the culture, based on when i when i would deal with them.

Jeff Ma
You hit on something, really, that strikes me because of what we deal with, and talking to different businesses as well, which is that there's this there's always this desire, and sometimes in a good awareness around these weaknesses and cultures in these desire to like, make a change and have an outcome for sure. You always see that. But time and again, we kind of encounter this barrier that you kind of you just just mentioned, when it comes to like, what it really takes. So like, the mindset shifts, the behaviour changes, the kind of self awareness and the realisations that have to happen at a real human level. And it feels like a lot of, you know, especially business leaders, but just people in general, are prepared to accept that reality or kind of take on the real work, and sometimes are caught off guard by that. Is that what you're seeing as well? And have you been able to kind of break through? or what have you seen in order to overcome that?

Roxanne Derhodge
Like, think it depends on the company, right? Like the, if they're wanting real change? Is it a concept that you want change? Or do you really want more connection at your company? And really, as we know, with with powers, its power flows down. So really, how is your vision mission, you know, values in alignment with with the actions that you're expecting, in reference to change? So what I find is a lot of companies might say they want authentic leadership or service leadership, but what are they prepared to invest? You know, with their time and human capital to create that change? And is it a nice to have, so I could put the kind of the byline on, you know, the homepage of my company? Or am I really, truly willing, regardless of who I can talk to with systemically within that company? Am I going to get the same feedback regardless of who I'm talking to? And I think that's the difference between companies that's it's a nice to have, and the companies that say, I'm going to invest in the strategy regardless of how long it takes. And you know, if it takes maybe a bit of attrition, because people don't fit as well. That's something a lot of companies may not want to explore. And you have to be willing to make the changes that are necessary if you truly want a corporate culture that's transparent and relatable.

Jeff Ma
What do you do that I guess just the tactical tactically Like what? Because when you walk into the doors, you're not sure which one they are yet they all start with good intent, I guess. But pretty soon you realise, oh, this this leader or the CEO, or this, this board is trying to fix a problem they think they're outside of, or you know, a lot of times they say, oh, everyone, let's roll out some cultural programmes so that everyone else can be happy. There's no problem here. When what what do you do in those spaces? Is it just like oh, sorry, I can't help you here by or what You do from here to actually make a difference for that?

Roxanne Derhodge
Well, I think you have to feel Why am I there? Right? So it's one thing to say I have an issue with my teams. And the reality is, you know, how? How is your? How is your mean, see your team? What are they about? What are you about as a CEO? And are you able to go inside and really become grounded within yourself about what your core fundamental values are? What's your leadership story? Why are you doing what you're doing? And are you transparent? Are you real, not reactive? Based on? You know, the SWOT analysis of what's happening in the industry? Are you able to communicate? And when you have those full pause, which was, you know, CEOs do? Are you able to be humble enough to call out your mistakes, and to speak to them in a way that shows that you are relatable, and you're human as well. So I think it starts at the top. And you as a senior leader, as the head of your team, should be looking for those same variables in your team members. And let's say you have one or two team members that are high producers, but they're buckling at the concept of servant leadership or Love as a business strategy. What is it that you're going to do to address? If there's a misfit or misalignment with culture? You know, are you going to ignore it? Because they are your two top producers? Are you thinking short term or long term. And you know, if those people are the kind of senior leaders that as soon as they walk into the lunchroom, or you know, the figurative water cooler, the conversation shifts, you're you're giving getting information about what others around them need to see. So I think as a leader, you really have to be in alignment with your vision and mission about what you want to see. And if it means that you have to make some cuts, which may be, at first, deep in your pockets, to create alignment for long term cultural change, that's something that most teams are looking to see, are you going to make the necessary changes? Or are you going to, you know, guide along because, you know, the quarters coming up, and your board needs to see that ROI that you promised? And so I think it's the long term strategy. And those are the conversations that I would have with people that are employing me to already understand is this what are your pain points? Why are you doing what you're doing? Or are you want me to come in to do a stress management day, will you let's let's drill down further and talk about really, what's telling you that you need to make this change. And let's not look short term, but in fact, long term, about a year, you know, six months, a year, three years down the road, how this one piece that you wanting me to do, will be continued long term. So I think it's you, you have to have those conversations, and you have to walk away as well. Because, you know, obviously, in the kind of work that I do, your reputation follows you. So if I go in, I'll give you an example. I was called I was called in highly recommended. CEO said, without a doubt need you need you need you or a brain to make strategic change. So I said, Okay, well, the first level is I need to have, you know, General meetings to understand what the core concerns are. So I started to meet with individual business units. And the themes were the same. There was a lack of trust. They named things that needed to shift immediately, just as a beginning point. The first round took place in a couple of weeks. But what started to happen is that the CEO, her her real goal at the point was to have everybody move along. So she had bought into the concept, but it was based on the steps that she thought she needed for me to take in order to move the and there was a lot of toxic management prior to the CEO coming in. So really, when when we were able to analyse the data and bring it back to her, she said, unfortunately, I'm not willing to take the steps based on what you're finding out at this point. And so I at that point, decided not to work with the company.

Mohammad Anwar
How do you deal with I'm just going to play a little bit of the role of a CEO, a typical CEO who has the pressures and the realities have, you know, the business, the outcomes, the deadlines, the budget constraints, you know, all of the pressures that leaders are faced with? And, you know, if we're bringing in these approaches of culture and change, how do you handle the realities of what is at stake? What is going on in the business, and convince a leader that those are the realities, but how do you convince them that they should invest into culture and things that don't seem like an urgent and pressing need, and don't have direct tangible correlation to the business outcomes that are being expected of me? Or of a leader? How do you handle those type of conversations? And what is your approach to it?

Roxanne Derhodge
I think you'd have to, I'd have to speak numbers with someone like yourself Mo. And like, I'd have to create the business case for it to talk about, you know, if you were to think of let's use your, your one of your senior leadership teams, let's say a third of them, you know, you're concerned about losing, what's the value of of attrition at that rate. So let's say you were to lose a third of them. And because they're not happy, like we know what's happening at this time, they're calling it the great resignation. So what if you were to lose that person, let's say they make a half a million dollars a year times three, that's $1.5 million dollars, and they were to go to your competitor? And what would that value of that be? Short term, you might want to keep them but long term, if they're creating dissension, based on the projects that are at hand, what does that translate out based on your strat plan for the year, right? So if people are not happy, they're feeling there's, there's a bit of potentially nepotism on the team, they're feeling they can't feel safe, psychologically, to speak up. If I'm not psychologically safe, I'm sure I'm not going to go against you Mo, I'm going to tell you what you need to hear from me. And maybe that's not what the right route is, you want people to be able to voice their concerns in a respectful way, based on your roles, but you want people to bring the truest version of why you hired them to begin with, to the table. So oftentimes, we talk about, you know, what is the impact about if you do lose some of the core people? And if you were to lose them? Okay, that's one end, but what would it tell them what to take to replace them? And what are the costs associated with that? What are your incidental absences? Do you know your short term disability claims? If you don't? And you I'd say, everybody always shows up Roxanne? Okay, what you know, what are your health claims? What's being used? And what what what are those numbers showing you? Even though maybe people are going to, you know, show you what a frontward facing kind of reality? It's all good, it's all good. So I think you have to look at the overall numbers. And, you know, and really drill down to what does that really saying to you, if someone is not happy, they're, you know, and you've heard probably heard the term presenteeism, which is, I'm going to give you 65% of productivity, I wouldn't be all good, I'm not going to be the guy that or the other woman on your team that's going to show you that I'm glaringly needing assistance. And high producers, what are they, they often are the types they wish so long, by the time they actually go off work. They're needing a whole lot more to get healthy again. And that's proven with the data across industry. So you have to look at all those. So those are the conversations I would be talking to a leader about, you know, yeah, you're maybe maybe making your targets but you're having a lot more conflicts on your team. What is that costing you? And you know, from, from a money perspective, we can look at it like that, but also, if psychological safety allows everybody to be more productive and more creative, and you're not going to get 65%. But maybe you're going to get maybe we can max out about 85%? What's the variance, about productivity from that end? So it's, it's sometimes you can sit down and translate out into numbers, but you need to look at all the overall numbers about health in your industry. And what are the top key cost cost drivers that would keep people functional, healthy and up work and start to look at it from that perspective to paint and look at the benchmarks within your industry as well. What is the norm, you know, in healthcare, for instance, is 15% of utilisation. If people are able to go forward earlier, to get services, they stay at work. And if they stay at work, they're going to get healthier, happier, and more productive. So it's having those types of conversations with CEOs To say, let's look not just in the next six months, but to look, three to five years out with what you're wanting to do in your industry as well.

Mohammad Anwar
Got it? No, that's, that's very helpful to talk about, you know, you touch a topic of great resignation. And it's like a big thing right now, this year with almost 50%, at least in the United States. 50% of the population is looking to switch jobs, they're actively looking to change jobs, are considering it? What is your take on that? As far as leaders, CEOs, business owners, and senior leadership, what do you think it's going to result in in terms of their, their strategic positioning or approach as a result of the great resignation? What do you think is going to happen?

Roxanne Derhodge
Well, I think we have to take people seriously, you have to really understand what is your value alignment at your company. And if you've been misaligned, call it if you've been ignoring certain things that you know, have been perpetual issues or concerns in your industry, or in your company, this is not the time to be ignoring those things, you got to college, you have to be vulnerable, you have to talk about your weak spots as the leader, you also have to talk about what you're willing to do to make that investments and to speak to your full powers. Like, I've screwed this up royally in this way this week, and those are the vulnerability and the storytelling as the as your leader, right, I need to know that I'm valuable. And if I don't feel valued, where am I going to go? I'm going to go take 10 to 15 20%, potentially less. And that's what they're saying people are doing, because they want the value alignment based on what you know, COVID-19 has kind of taught a lot of people from being at home. So really, Who are you people? What's your main demographic? How old? Are they? How long? Have they been married? What are the core concerns coming up for them? Where do they live based on where your business is? And what are their core concerns within the communities that your companies live, get to know your company, just not based on the product, but also your your human capital. And if you understand the mind of your people, and what they value, ensure that the things that you're putting in places in alignment with that. And if you can't, at that point, you have to sit down and really spend time alone with yourself saying, What am I going to do, you know, if you don't have the capacity, gain the skills as a leader, be introspective, learn how to communicate better learn to be a better storyteller, learn to tell your leadership legacy story. And so people understand you, and there will be a natural amount of attrition, because some people are just gonna say, I'm going to use my feet, because you know that this is no longer fitting that you can't help you need to help them along and thank them for their service. But I think look at a go back again to we all want to be valuable and needed. And I want to know if you're my CEO Mo, that you remember something about me to have a conversation with me and No, and I and people will say to me, if it's a multinational, that's even harder, I get that. But you have to make the effort to understand in order to add the things that you're putting in place, make sure it has meaning for the people like your purpose. And your you know, it's not just about the money like we're hearing now. How are your perks in alignment with work life balance? Lots of different things like that.

Mohammad Anwar
Got it. So maybe, maybe I feel like I'm getting a little bit of a therapeutic session. So I have a question for you.

Roxanne Derhodge
I'll give you a free couple of minutes.

Mohammad Anwar
So what about like the realities of like, the pressures on the leader in terms of like, going down that path, right, like being there to serve the people, take care of them, get to know them be selfless? And, you know, constantly go day in and day out and put the needs of others before yourself? What's the advice and the direction you'd give to the leaders to take care of themselves in their health? And in the fact that they're always out there serving others in this type of a culture? How do you make sure that they don't get burned out? How do you make sure that they're not going to, you know, end up you know, having help needed so what's your advice on those types of situations?

Roxanne Derhodge
We have to start with yourself, right? You really have to stay healthy psychologically, emotionally, physiologically, and you have to become if you have expectations of others, you have to be the role model and a yet again, we're putting the leader on the spotlight, but guess what, if you have the expectations that people have work life balance or you recognise the pressures that sometimes you have deadlines and, you know, do the things that you know would be that you would want for yourself. But unless you as a leadership person, really, fundamentally understand yourself, like when you're stressed, my more abrupt or do I kind of hide in my office? Or, you know, is it? You know that I'm a little bit too suspected my messaging, I'm stressed to what am I doing for myself? What are those micro bursts of resilience that I am doing daily, for myself, that allows me after I've been in back to back meetings for three to four hours, that allows me to come back into centre back into who I am as a person, because I am a person who happens to be a leader. And I'm, you know, a father, a friend, a community member. So to really, self care is very key, and what is your internal GPS, and when you know, you're out of alignment, and you've got a lot of pressures, which of course, leaders have a lot of pressures. And if you're, you know, your mind becomes distorted. It impacts how you feel, and it impacts how you act. So you really, and if you do miss a line and step out of line, for whatever reason, in a meeting or whatever, go back and repair that, so that people can see that you have the capacity to understand and say, Hey, Roxanne, I recognise the other day, you know, you brought this and, you know, this fantastic proposal to me and I kind of you know, I was a little bit I didn't see didn't take the time to say, Hey, I'll take some time, when I have more time I was a little bit more aloof or removed, I think naming it so that people recognise it and let your team's know that you're just like them, you have the same kind of pressures. And I'm not surprised. I'm not suggesting you have verbal diarrhoea all over your people, you still have to lead, but lead in a way that lets them know you have consciousness, and you're aware of why you're leading the way you do. So it's like they say what the oxygen mask right? CEO put it on yourself first. Because if you're, you know, trying to resuscitate everybody else, the planes going down because you're running out of oxygen, is that that metaphor really has to be taken very, very seriously. Because the pressures that we've seen with leaders through this time has been astronomical, and they are high functionaries that can separate off from their feelings, and they function. But that integration needs to be something that they need to keep at their forefront.

Mohammad Anwar
Awesome. Thank you.

Jeff Ma
I have I have one, since we're asking for a friend right now. So I think part of the struggle sometimes in practising for my friend, is that, you know, there's, there's intentions and there's outcomes. And I think and I think when it comes to especially things of the of the heart and of the culture, you know, the best intentions can still fall flat, and you can't bring everyone else along. I think how do you how do you deal with kind of like trying to do right by everybody, because culture feels hard when you can't get everybody. Like it feels like when you know, you can you can say all the right things, or try to say all the right things and be the as selfless as possible. And you still have people who take it as manipulative or fake or, you know, and, and it's it's so frustrating, right? To to find yourself in that space. Like, what advice do you have, I guess, to overcome that mindset?

Roxanne Derhodge
Not everybody's gonna like you all the time, Jeff. But you have to do your best and be consistent for your friends. Yeah. Yeah, what I'm saying is like consistency with time shows people who you are. So you're not going to get everybody always be aligned. But you're going to get respect because if people know deep down inside, and they see you acting in accordance with what you truly believe internally, that respect will come. And I often say to CEOs, you know, we're not suggesting that when it comes to your house with Sunday tea, but ultimately that you get respect, because you still have a position and a responsibility to your company to have outcomes you still have to manage. But I think just being grounded within yourself, and knowing what kind of leader you are, and knowing your intentions. What happens with time is that people realise you're not perfect like anybody else. None of us are, but you're doing the best. You can through this human experience, who also happens to be the CEO. And I think if you kind of take that kind of mindset, then you're kind of fundamentally a little bit easier on yourself as the leader. It's kind of like at home, I don't know about any both of you, right? You try your best all the time. But do you slip up? Well, yeah, often, what happens when you have a good foundation, it comes into into toe, right. But if you're kind of not investing, it's like a debit and credit kind of thing. Eventually things are going to balance out, sometimes you're going to, you know, it's not going to be ideal. But for the most part, the backdrop is based on, I know this person, I know their intentions. and trustworthiness is something without trust. You know, it's hard. So I think as a leader, just be yourself, act in accordance with what you truly value and let that be kind of the stage or platform that you're creating, for yourself within your company.

Mohammad Anwar
So I was gonna ask Roxanne so I know there's a huge emphasis on the leaders, right? What about the supporting staff, the rest of the organisation? What's their responsibility or obligations to ensuring that you know, the culture that they are aspiring for? How did they contribute to it, because leaders obviously carry the majority of the burden of curating the culture. But culture isn't possible without everyone being involved in included and in contributing to it? So what kind of advice do you have for folks who are not in leadership positions, but are members of organisations and they really aspire for change in their culture?

Roxanne Derhodge
I think we're all leaders, regardless of the position that we have within a company. And I think, you know, knowing what you want for yourself individually, like everybody, we all want meaning and purpose in our life. without meaning and purpose, there's no energy, and whether, you know, I'm the best admin or the person in reception and answering that phone, I want optimal energy to be able to, that's my part that I'm taking on, I've accepted a position and a role that there's responsibilities and performance that's needed from me, I accepted, you know, to be part of the organisation. So I think, how is it that I should lead within myself? How do I bring the best version of myself, and I think leadership has responsibility, but individually, you know, each employee has the responsibility to bring the best version of themselves to work. So I think if you get the top doing that, where they're clear, and their mission and vision, and you're consistently talking about that, and expecting certain things, collectively, that's what your culture is, we're all coming from the same space versus, you know, it's Jeff's job, or it's, you know, Mo's job, it's Roxanne's job, we all want to collectively work together, to the best means to an end, which is to put put the best product out there in the marketplace, or, you know, to be the kind of place that you walk into, and people feel comfortable, you know, where people feel, wow, you know, when I enter, you know, the corporate offices, I feel that sense of belonging, we all have really, really important responsibilities, regardless of where we in, we're in that kind of macro of an organisation. So I think that's the responsibility that employees have to take on for themselves. And if it's not working for them, why is it not working? If it has to do with management, who, you know, you create that flow for them to come to you, if it's personal, you create the space that they can go get the the private or, you know, help that they need, but at the end of the day, you know, how am I managing me? Because management can't manage me, I have to manage myself. And if it's a skill deficit within myself, how am I going to the appropriate people to get the skills that I need it or if it's overwork or whatever, you know, being able to be safe enough to speak out and get the support that they need as well?

Mohammad Anwar
Awesome, thank you for that. Last question. This is obviously not easy. I mean, the leadership role, cultural change, you know, creating an environment where people bring their full selves, it's, it's not like what is traditionally expected at corporations and going through this change I can only imagine is extremely hard, extremely difficult, not just for the leaders, but everyone involved. And what's I mean, what's your take on that? Like, how do we work towards this change and Then face the realities of like, you know how difficult it is what kind of things have you observed? And what kind of advice do you have in that regard with going through a transformation like this,

Roxanne Derhodge
I think it takes time, you have to be patient, and you have to be in it for the long haul, you know, not, you know, if, if you have a vision for what you want to achieve, as a leader, make sure you get the right support to achieve that, starting with yourself, and, you know, become as transparent as possible. And if you're, if you struggle with communication, make that your best friend. So learn how to communicate as effectively as possible, especially through storytelling, I think there's an emotional reaction that happens when we're able to relate to our leaders. And it's a tough time, we are expecting a lot of leadership today. And recognise that we're just in that different time, the last two years have shown us this people have used their feet accordingly. And the make their buying decisions based on readability. And if you're really wanting things to get better, think about, you know, what's ideal for your customer, and make sure that whatever plans you're making, you're putting it in place, from the micro altar all the way up to the macro systemically. And, you know, use your check and balances often use your town halls, ask for feedback. Make sure you recognise people in the way that they want to be recognised. So it's, it's, I would say patience. Like I used to say to my four year old boy, patience is a virtue. Use it often and be be willing to hear what you're not doing well. And take it in a space of Okay, I'm glad that people are able to share with me what's really going on? How can I use it constructively now to apply the things that are being told and make sure people know that you're following through. And even if you can't follow through with something, be honest. And and because communication, communication, communication, allows people to get to know you. And even if it's bad news, let them know where you're at, on an ongoing basis.

Mohammad Anwar
Awesome. Thank you.

Jeff Ma
Incredible. Yeah. And so many good nuggets of wisdom there. My notebook is full of stuff. Okay, great. So, Roxanne, I wanted to also give a little bit of time to understanding what you're working on and how people who are interested can find you or connect with you as well. I know you've written I believe two books, you have a podcast, all of these Can you share and plug a little bit what you know, the audience might be how they might be able to find you and what they might be interested in.

Roxanne Derhodge
Absolutely, thanks for allowing me to do that, Jeff. So I You can reach me at roxannederhodge.com. I've written two books. One is Enhancing Your Relationships and the other one is about to be released its ROR Return on Relationships, how authentic leaders can focus on relationships versus the bottom line and how to build resilient teams. So that's going to be due out it's been a bit delayed in little by November, December. You can reach me there, the podcast is a weekly, I have amazing guests on that talk about what it takes to be authentically connected to yourself, whether it's at home or at work. And so I've consistently tried to provide information to companies about what kinds of things employees may be experiencing, but also what leaders might be experiencing. You can reach me pretty much on any social I work with organisations where I work through the with themselves and their teams organisational strat plans around how authentic they are as leaders and their teams are able to analyse their what I call their aq, which which is their authenticity quotient. And the leader does it but also the team does it and as I do training, myself, my teams do training, the leader is consistently get get given a benchmark about how he or she is doing in the arena of the different elements to authentic leadership. So that at the end of it, the leader should be should have been able to enhance all the authentic variables to be a better leader. So that's kind of what I've been up to.

Jeff Ma
Awesome. Can I ask Can I ask you to describe to like, you know, like for a middle schooler, I guess what is authentic leadership. For by by your definition.

Roxanne Derhodge
Authentic Leadership is listening to the deepest profound space within yourself and understanding what's your, what do you what's important to you, and having your actions be in alignment with that top value.

Jeff Ma
Awesome, very last thing. What is love as a business strategy through your lens

Roxanne Derhodge
love is connection. So if I'm connected to myself, I'm able to connect to others but if I'm disconnected to myself, I have no sense of what the radius around me is. So the more connected I am self love as an individual, the more I'm able to connect with others around me so without that lens, it's difficult to understand what the true needs are from a frontward facing kind of perspective outside of myself

Jeff Ma
awesome. Great stuff. Thank you so much, Roxanne, really, really appreciate the time and kind of the free the free therapy session that we've got today but definitely appreciate you sharing and taking the time to share all these perspectives and insights and expertise to our listeners appreciate you spending the time as well with us and you know, I always have to plug our book love as a business strategy it's out I feel like it's really getting kind of old getting to that point where it's kind of old but not I'm not gonna stop really proud of it. I think it's a good book. It's a best seller so hopefully it matters to people but but please check that out as well and we're posting new episodes here every Wednesday and had a great conversation today's If you liked this please leave a review and some some good five star ratings and things like that tell a friend. But with that Roxanne thank you again for your time Mo thank you for joining us and we will see you all.