Candice Hung  
There's a lot of things that sort of happened below the surface. And we're all sort of we feel it, like you might walk into a room, and you're like, Oh, it feels a little bit uncomfortable in here or you might go into another team. It's like, oh, there's such high energy here. And it brings something out of you that may not that might be squashed in another team. And but being able to call that out and talk about it, that's when that level of awareness rises, for not just you but sort of everyone that you're working with.

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy - A podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders tend to shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm here to have those conversations and hear those stories from real people about real businesses real life. My guest today is Candice Hung, and she's the founder of Lucid Leadership, a boutique leadership coaching business that creates healthy and high performing leaders and teams who serve a greater cause. She's a certified leadership coach with the international coaching Federation to certified Enneagram practitioner which I love, a mental fitness coach and an organization or relationship systems practitioner. With over 15 years of coaching experience in professional business environments. She also has 20 plus years of Christian ministry leadership experience. She's worked with CEOs, directors, church leaders and volunteers, organizations ranging from financial services, local government, hospitality and Early Learning Services. Candice is passionate about working in the intersection of work relationships, systems and faith to empower and release leaders and their teams into their potential and develop thriving cultures. She also serves on the ICF Australia Australasian leadership team, and is an ambassador for the Ovarian Cancer Research Foundation, which is incredible. Candice is talking to me all the way from Melbourne, Australia. So it's late at night for me, middle of the day for her. This is exciting. I'm excited. And she lives there with her husband and her two kids. So Candice, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining taking the time today.

Candice Hung  
Thank you, Jeff. Thanks for staying up late for this call.

Jeff Ma  
Well, you have kids, so I don't know if it's like free like this for you. But this is not really that late. Yeah. Cuz when when the kids go to bed, my day starts. Yeah, totally. Candace, I want to start, you know, hearing about your story, but really specifically, kind of about where your passion sits? Where is your passion really centered around? And how did you get there? Like, where did this passion come from?

Candice Hung  
Hmm, yeah, it's a interesting one, I think, I think maybe starting off with a story to kind of illustrate might help. And so this one that I often like to tell people just gives a picture of my journey. So the story is about the statue of David, and the story of how Michelangelo created him. And the the stories that someone asked him, yeah, how did you create such a beautiful statue like David, and Michelangelo said, I didn't create him, he was always in the rock. And I just chipped away at the outside the excess. And when someone first told me that story, it just, it just opened up my whole world in terms of understanding that underneath all these layers and layers of rock, there lies, our potential, our essence, who we really are. And I think very much that journey of mine has been chipping away at the outside, and at the start, it wasn't me chipping away, it was really other people. And I think other people kind of seeing beyond what they saw on the outside for me, it was them kind of coming in and chipping away the the rock on the outside, being able to uncover and exposing more of those layers of who I really was underneath. And I think in that process of transformation and journey, and I think for many of us who are coaches, we often end up kind of serving that past sense, or past version of ourselves, you know, because we're just so we have that empathy, we start to say that, Oh, if I can make this change, and if I can, you know, come into that potential of mine, then I want to share this with other people. And so, you know, there's been lots of things that have informed my passion today, particularly around you know, working with businesses and teams, and you know, my my background is in, in the corporate world. But as you mentioned, in my bio, I was I had very many, many years working inside of the church ministry side as well. And so I actually had those two worlds in parallel. And working inside the church world, in the volunteer capacity in a faith space. And then working in the corporate side, two quite different worlds. But I realized that there's so much that you can learn from each other. When I was back at work, you know, there's so good with like systems, processes, order structure, those sorts of things. In, in the church world, you know, it was all about people, it was all about learning how to motivate, encourage them, you know, they don't have any financial motivation whatsoever, be there, they need to go something deeper. And so when I've been working in those spaces for like, 20 years in parallel, and so we would, it would crossover, and I'd bring things from the church, but over into my workplace and from the workplace, or those sort of things into the church world. And so, over the many years, I started to say that people really want to serve something which I call that greater purpose, a greater cause, whether you're in the church world, or whether you're in a corporate stands, and you're starting to see that really, I think, you know, for you guys bring that sense of humanity back into the workplace, people want to know that they're making a difference, to move beyond the profit. You know, these Gen Gen X, Gen Y's, millennials, everyone wants to be doing something that's meaningful, and purposeful, and really connecting to that. So very much this year journey of mine that's helped me kind of shape what I'm passionate about, and how I want to help people do that as well.

Jeff Ma  
I love that. And I'm curious, is there a particularly large chunk of rock you chipped away from yourself that you find that you find, has equipped you well, to help others chip away as well?

Candice Hung  
Yeah, since since we're talking about an authentic leader strategy, you know, I'm going to be very authentic here as well, that look, probably the first 30 years of my life, I thought I was in control, I thought I had everything kind of made, you know, pretty felt like things were kind of going the way that I wanted to. And then boom, I became a mother. And that was probably the biggest thing. And you know, I think, I did not realize so. So yeah, being open, my mom actually passed away when I was 12 years old. So she had stomach cancer, I grew up in a family of just all men or boys. Emotions wasn't something that we really even talked about, or even, wasn't even really part of it. And I just, you know, to cope, I just locked all my feelings and everything away. I didn't, I didn't know how to deal with it. No one's sort of helped me with that. Only then when I became a mother, and I had a daughter of my own, that things started to unravel. Quite quite big. And in a way, I was forced to kind of understand the impact of my own upbringing, on who I was today. And so I had people that came along that were, you know, couple of, you know, decades ahead, that could immediately see what the issue was, and what my struggle was, and but I wasn't ready to hear it. You know, I wasn't at this stage where I kind of, you know, it's painful, right? When those first chips of the rock come, and you kind of, you're like, This is unfamiliar, someone's like, really cutting at the core of who you think you are. And so I resisted for quite some time, not realizing that I was really resisting. It just was like, wasn't even sort of in my frame of mind. But slowly, slowly, yeah, they were these people around me, were gentle, you know, kept encouraging me to explore. And when I was finally able to take those first steps forwards, and realize, Oh, my goodness, there's this whole aspect layers and layers and layers underneath that I hadn't allowed myself to be exposed to nor anyone else. Then that was when I guess the healing happened. And the revelations, the self awareness came, and that's just opened up this, I guess, I wouldn't call it the floodgates. But it's been this ongoing, like, layer upon layer upon layer going, oh my gosh, there's so much more just, you know, even the last few weeks, I've had more of these, like, you know, exposures and revelations of the things that have shaped me, where I've thought, yeah, that's just me, but actually, no, they've just been external influence. There's all that sort of thing that have may cause me to think in a certain way that may not be quite helpful for me. Yeah.

Jeff Ma  
Amazing. So Can is talking about authentic leadership, can you just start by defining what that means to you?

Candice Hung  
Yeah, to me, being authentic is really about knowing who you really are. And not not the sense of the, I think there's a lot of people that say, you know, I'm authentic, this is just who I am. And just accept me, this is the way I am. But I feel like that's the sort of the unaware self, it's, it's about being really quite true to knowing your strengths, your challenges, the things that the probably unconscious part of yourself, being able to bring that to a conscious state. And so knowing that each individual is unique, so having that sense around who you are, is different from everyone else, like, you know, that saying that, you know, be yourself, everyone else is taken. And so I really believe that underneath again, or that rock, that, that core, that statue of David, when people kind of discover that aspect of who they are, everyone has unique strengths, everyone has got unique talents and gifts. And it's being able to own that and use that for that greater purpose and cause and that's about that's being authentic.

Jeff Ma  
Is there a difference between self awareness as a as like a general term and authentic? Like what you consider authentic leader? And what's needed for an authentic leadership? Are they one in the same? Or are there elements that are different?

Candice Hung  
Yeah, I think there's quite a few elements. I think self awareness is definitely the beginning. Like you need, you need a start that and be open to knowing that there are things about yourself that you don't know. But there's a lot more other layers of awareness. And so someone that kind of shared with me probably last year in the for regroup actually in the US as well called Five Capitals, and they talk about sort of other five areas of awareness. And this is what we do, like in our coaching as well. So the first one being like self awareness, understanding what's happening, you know, being able to regulate your own emotions, understanding what's happening from your side, the other the other, the next part in terms of, I guess, emotional intelligence is that sense of social awareness, you know, what's happening with the, with the other persons, then you're kind of spreading out beyond yourself, because when you know yourself, then you can almost except yourself, and then forget about yourself, right? So that enables you to actually see what's happening with other people to the social awareness, there's a sense of current reality awareness. So really being truthful about what's happening at the moment there a lot of people that you know, can be so positive, almost to the point of perhaps denial that the current situation or they're so living in the past, that they can't see what's happening today. So it's a real, what is actually happening today, being brutally honest about the facts of you know, what's happening in your organization or your teams or whatever, speaking that out but kind of having that unwavering belief that things will be different. There's okay so for ourselves in terms of my faith, belief, there's a God awareness of what's happening in the bigger picture. So if you're a spiritual person, you know, there's this other elements sometimes we call it sort of like this third dimension that we don't, we're not kind of tuned into so seeing what's happening there. And then there's the fifth one called, I guess that story awareness. So that's really kind of mapping. How has this story, your journey kind of impacted you today? So, I guess, yes, five areas that I would say,

Jeff Ma  
That's very interesting. I've, I've, I've not heard it broken down into those pieces, but they make a lot of sense. I think self awareness alone is already quite the journey. And seeing for other types of awareness to kind of harness is kind of overwhelming, to be honest. Is this something, I guess? How do you start building these things? Is something you can do alone? Is it something that you need help with? Is it something that takes a village? Like, where does it where does all this awareness come from?

Candice Hung  
Yeah, you definitely need a village for this. And maybe whether you call it you know, just been talking a lot about psychological safety and having people in your world where you feel comfortable around, to be exposed, to allow yourself to be seen as well. So, you know, I feel like coaching is becoming such a big theme now, because it seems like it's one of the spaces where it is safe, where you can get that unbiased, neutral kind of perspective. And it's really hard to find that today. Right? Yeah, you got to go like invest in pay someone to really listen to you. Because everyone's, you know, way too busy, to spend that time to invest to really listen carefully without putting their own judgments in their own thoughts and other people. So having, having that environment where perhaps you have that one person that you can go to, but I think you need to really cultivate that in, in your small groups in your teams. And that's why I'm so passionate about teams, because we spent something like 70% of our time, like at work that's like the new family for us. And so having a group of people that you work with, that have this sense of wanting to listen to each other to create a space where people's blind spots can be exposed without a sense of shame, or fear or humiliation is really important. Another aspect of work that I in in terms of the organization or relationship systems is this thing called relationship systems intelligence. So that's, I suppose, if you want to add another layer on that, it's starting to sort of like beyond the social awareness, it's starting to look at the network of people. So say, like you're working in a team, you start looking at the dynamics and the relationships that happen between people. And that when you come together as a team, it has its own unique personality it has, it's a unique entity in itself. And it really is pulling, they're like, We have to get off the dance floor, and be up on the balcony, to see things from a widest perspective, and to see the dynamics that are in play, as well. And to kind of call them out, because I think there's a lot of things that sort of happen below the surface. And we're all sort of we feel it, like you might walk into a room. And you're like, Oh, it feels a little bit uncomfortable in here. Or you might go into another team. It's like, oh, there's such high energy here. And it brings something out of you that may not that might be squashed in another team. And but being able to call that out and talk about it, that's when that level of awareness rises for not just you, but for everyone that you're working with.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, that makes sense. You're creating a lot of tangibility around some of the less tangible pieces that I think we can all relate to. And that's really, really interesting. And I'm curious about particularly, you're mentioning story, awareness. And that's a new one for me. Can you define that or give an example? Talk a little bit about that for me?

Candice Hung  
Yeah, story. Okay. So, one of the other quotes that I really love and you know, huge Brene Brown fan, but she says, you know, if you have the courage to walk into your story, and own it, you get to write the ending. So, in terms of what that means, it's kind of looking when you talk about your story, it's that unique part of you, you know, from birth until now, all the different experiences, situations, relationships, interactions that you've had, pretty much from birth till now. That is like your story. You can break that up into chapters if you're having if you have the courage to actually go back and examine Those parts of your life, you'll start to see that there are certain things that have happened there certain growth, opportunities, and different ways that you've perceived. Those things that have happened. And I think for a lot of us, perhaps we didn't have such a great childhood, we have such a great upbringing, we had maybe some traumatic events. And what happens is that we kind of walk those away. So a bit like, you know, sort of my past didn't know how to deal with it, then, you know, you might have been six years old, 8, 12, 15 years old. And it's like too hard for me to deal with that don't want to put that lock it away in in like some dark cupboard, but not realizing that it has such an influence on you today. And so I've realized that when we lock it away, we experience and we remember those things. At the same ways we were that particular age. So if that happened to us at 15 years old, we are remembering it. And we remember all the emotions and things like a 15 year old, but we need to take it out kind of examine it much more objectively from the perspective of being a 30 40 50 year old, and then we get to change the narrative of what it means and go, Okay, that's something that could actually be a positive could be a gift could be an opportunity now, but if I don't address it, it's like that sort of mold that's growing in the background. And we're letting it fester, we need to expose it to the light. So looking at our screen, there's lots of different ways that you can kind of go into that sometimes you do need a trusted person that can help you walk through it, because it can bring up some challenging things. Sometimes we need that professional help to go to a therapist or someone like that, to help us walk through those challenges. But there's, yeah, I always say if you don't own your story, it will own you.

Jeff Ma  
That makes a whole lot of sense. I I'm curious if you could pick only one thing. What's like you walk into a room, you see a leader doing this? What's a sure sign that you have an authentic leader here? Like what's the one thing if you could pick that, that sets that leader apart?

Candice Hung  
It would probably be I guess, sense of vulnerability. I think and being able to laugh at themselves. You know, I am not like I'm like a self deprecating kind of way. But it's, it's sort of a lot of people think that vulnerability is weakness. So showing that side of you, that is not so not so good. But the way I think people then communicate their vulnerabilities. It's not a way of putting themselves down. I think when someone's authentic, they're neither. They're neither arrogant, but they don't put themselves down, you know, they just almost see themselves as just appear and equal. You know, they have such great empathy and compassion for others. And they have that empathy and compassion for themselves as well. So it is one of those things. It's a bit of an energy as well, you know, I said, like, sometimes you walk into the room and it feels different as well. Sometimes it's not always a sense of what they're saying what they're doing is maybe it's their body language, maybe it's just the way they look, you know, the way that they're carrying themselves around the room. way that they're talking the way that they make eye contact, and you get this energy that you when you come up near them, you just feel that they hear you that you're valued. And they're open about some of the challenges that they're going through as well. So I didn't really narrow it to one thing, but

Jeff Ma  
it's okay. It's yeah, I was trying to chat I was trying to like challenge you there but you got it. You nailed it to me that's all one thing. So yeah. Can we talk a little bit about the intersection of authentic leadership and love and of course love is broadly defined but I mean love as a business strategy love talking about humanity and putting decisions around people first these types of things that I obviously am biased and care about but he talks about the intersection the overlap the if any, on where you see it. Where does love fit in your equation?

Candice Hung  
Love is really the core. Yeah, for me. It's one of those things where Where I feel as they now, like I said, a lot of organizations are wanting to bring that sense of humanity, they're looking at the soft skills, they're looking at the people side. And a lot of that motivation is because they've heard and they've seen that produces, you know, strong business results, and people matter and all that sort of thing, which it all does, and it's really important that they do. But again, I think, if that's just the only motivator, like, if it's not actually people are valuable, what if you love these people? And you don't get the business results, then why, you know, do you give up on that sense of love? No, I actually think it's, it's something that should be that core value that almost regardless of the outcome, then we still think people are valuable as they are. And so the very first part is actually then loving yourself. So, you know, I know, we talk a lot about self care, and all those sorts of things. It is, it is much, much more than that, I think, for a big part of the work that I do. And for myself as well, is that whole sense of self acceptance and self forgiveness. You know, we're really hard on ourselves as people, and being able to show that love to yourself in terms of accepting everything that has happened to you. But everything that you've done as well, so many of us will go, you know, they'll live in a sense of regret, shouldn't have done that, you know, wish I changed that, you know, stupid, I do that. But I have this strong belief that everyone's doing the best that they can with what they have at that time. Like, I don't think anyone really intentionally is trying to stuff up their life at that time. And so, go back. And again, this is why it's so important to reflect on your story, from today's perspective, going, you know, as a 10 year old as a 12 year old, is that really realistic for that particular child to have known or these things have operated in this certain way? Probably not. And then I think what happens is, you there's this shadow side, right? This part of you that, you know, you're embarrassed about, or you're ashamed of you don't like, maybe, particularly for a lot of people in their teenage years, wasn't wasn't quite like, oh, you know, for some, it was great for a lot of people, it wasn't so great. There's this, like, you know, Shadow teenage Fredo sort of in the back, that you don't want to kind of bring out. But being able to accept that person as your, you know, a lovable person, then enables you to actually have that empathy and compassion for others knowing that everyone else is imperfect, as well. Perfectly Imperfect. Yeah.

Jeff Ma  
So the last piece here, to try to bring this I guess, down to like a, like a, like a tangible, like graspable level or an attempt to because I know this is a lot. But you know, when it when it comes to your coaching, and like the work you actually do when you work with leaders? Where do you begin, like, what does this stuff tangibly look like? What what are the things you're having people do? Or try? Or you know, can you give give some sense of like, what the listeners might be able to be thinking about for themselves? I know, we can't. It's different for every person, and every case is unique. But like, is there anything that you can offer in terms of what working towards being authentic leader looks like?

Candice Hung  
Yeah, so I think at the start, you mentioned that I use the Enneagram. So Enneagram I don't know if everyone is familiar with it. But it's a I guess, an ancient Personality Typing tool. Some people don't like using those sorts of things I do. And I found like, I actually came across this, you know, a bit further down the track of my journey. But I have found that I guess, compared to a lot of other tools out there, this one talks to the why the motivations behind why you do what you do. Other Other tools are very much static, like they'll tell you this is your this is how you react in these situations. You're an extrovert you're introvert at this one point in time, and so doesn't really give a sense of where you come from, why the growth path there. So when I came across the anagram, I just went, Oh, wow, this has given actually language, to to my journey where I've come from, where I met where I could go in the future. And it was as a very, very helpful tool. So I do use that with a lot of my clients. Just to help, I guess, bring about that awareness. And it's not a, you know, let's do two sessions, and then you're on your way. But it's kind of like gives you a framework gives you something to be aware of, it's not the be all and end all and not going to tell you everything about yourself, but just gives you those first easy steps into that awareness piece. You can also use, I use that in a team environment as well. So you know, very interesting to get everyone in a group together and looking at their styles, how they interact with each other, where you will go when you're feeling more healthy, when you're not so healthy, what it looks like in conflict and that sort of thing. So that's one component, I do a lot of work in terms of that story journey as well. So helping to walk people through that and bringing out the themes and coming up with, you know, I guess a purpose statement for themselves, their values. Looking at, it's an iterative process. So it's not just a one time, let's look at your story today. And then that's it. But every new day brings new experiences, and you got to kind of integrate that back into the journey. And then I suppose the last component of, of what I do is really about building that system of new habits and practices and ways of thinking because you can have all this awareness and insight and you'd like Wow, fantastic. Now what you really need to kind of build that trellis for people so that these new habits turn into that tangible practices and habits, you know, I love James clears atomic habits, there's another, you know, programs that I use, which help people build those new neural pathways in a way that get the habits or practices, they got to work with people together. Because change is hard, right? Change is very hard on its own, take 63 days to you know, have consistent practice to form a new habit. And busy leaders, you know, do a great course, they'll go back into the day to day work, you know, forgotten about what they learnt the previous day to how to integrate it. So really helping them build a community around that to change together. Even even better. If you can do it as a team. You've got that support. You've got the you know, shared goals. You know, that's where I'll use things like, you know, apps and technology and all that stuff, try to utilize all those kinds of things to really help build a new way of being really, yeah.

Jeff Ma  
Awesome. Candice, thank you so much. For the time you spent today, all the wisdom you've dropped, I mean, a lot, a lot to think about because I always simplified it down to self awareness. And I have all this other awareness that I want to uncover about myself about myself. And so thank you so much for what you've shared today. For the record, I'm Enneagram 3 Not that it matters but love. Anyways. Thank you for the time you spend today. I really appreciate it. Awesome. Thank

Candice Hung  
you so much. Yeah,

Jeff Ma  
and to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in. As always, we hope you're checking out our book love as a business strategy is still available. And subscribe please on our podcast. If your first time here, please subscribe, give us a rating. drop us a note any of those good things. With that. Thank you for all your time. We'll see everybody next week.