Jeff Ma
Dustin DeVries is a business owner who went through a life changing event that put his business and its people to the test. In this episode, Dustin shares his personal struggle through that adversity and how it shaped the way he leads his business.

Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. We want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. You see, we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm joined today by co host and co author, Frank Danna Frank, nice bow tie. How's it going?

Frank Danna
Hey, Jeff, for those of you that can't see me, but are listening, I'm currently wearing a bow tie.

Jeff Ma
It's very dapper. Each episode Frank, we dive into one element of business strategy, and test our theory of love against it. And today's guest started his own consulting business and technology eight years ago, and has been thriving ever since. And aside from his success and his business, I also invited him on the show today to share a little bit about some personal adversities that he had to overcome things that affected his life, his health, his business, etc. I really appreciate you joining us. Welcome to the show. Dustin DeVries, Dustin. How's it going?

Dustin DeVries
It's going great. Thanks for having me.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, Dustin, we do icebreakers here. They're as awkward as they sound. But I make Franco first up questions. So you have time. Today's icebreaker question is, what's your favorite scent? And what does it remind you of?

Frank Danna
Great question. I actually have it here with me. So in the fall, every every time that fall kind of happens upon us, which it seems like it's getting earlier and earlier in the year. So just after March, when the false sense come out, I'm kidding. There's this like this like scented brooms, they're like cinnamon brooms, if you've ever seen them, or if walked into any grocery store, any I guess like Michaels or anything like that, you'll smell these little, I got a mini one here, because every once in a while, a loft it because I really liked the smell of cinnamon and kind of the, for whatever reason. It always makes me feel comfortable and comforted. And so every fall, we buy a few of these different brooms and strategically placed them through the house. So as I'm walking out the door in the morning, I smell it and it and when I'm walking back in the door, from, you know, driving to get the groceries not going to work because I'm working at home, I'm able to it kind of like ushers me back into the home, and I really liked the scent. And so it's just become a tradition, and I really appreciate it and it makes me feel happy.

Jeff Ma
Well, if you're watching the video version, he held it up. And if you're also watching the video version, you're seeing my face judging him silently,

Frank Danna
very judgy. But I have an answer.

Jeff Ma
Good answer.

Frank Danna
It smells so good.

Jeff Ma
No judgment. That's wonderful. Dustin, same question, what's your favorite scent? And what does it remind you of?

Dustin DeVries
How do I follow up that answer? I mean, it's like I think Frank got the question ahead of time. For me, I would say, you know, there's different few different ways to answer this right, but I'm gonna go with fresh cut grass. Ooh, love the smell of fresh cut grass. That doesn't mean that like my wife happens to watch the show that she needs to find fresh cut grass, perfume.

Frank Danna
Or scented candles, scented candles,

Dustin DeVries
you know, as I started to go with that, you know, but that's okay. But she's actually allergic to them. So we don't really have those very often in the house. But I like the smell of fresh cut grass reminds me of, you know, the spring and the summer. And before it's too hot here in Texas. So I'll go with that.

Jeff Ma
Nice, I like it. Listen, I want to jump into this Dustin. I actually want you to take the stage first. And just kind of open ended kind of start. Tell us your story. Like just tell us that not the whole thing. And then but just start us off. Who's Dustin? And how did you get here?

Unknown Speaker
Okay, sure. So my name is Dustin DeVries, I'm a co founder of our company Caffeine Interactive. We build software, everything from websites to web mobile based apps. I've been doing this since 2013 is kind of when we put the stake in the ground of starting our business. Before that I was doing some freelance consulting and before that kind of 2000 through 2010. I was working in the semiconductor industry. So I've been working professionally for about 25 years. During that experience, gone through a lot of great things with starting my own business, meeting some great people working with some great people. You know, one of the challenges I had was back in 2018 I was diagnosed with cancer went through a lot of challenges with that I have to say that I'm not quote unquote cancer free but have persevered through that. I'm sure we'll probably spend more time talking on that but you know, just those that have two wonderful Kids that we adopted about 10 years ago. And just Yeah, living the dream here and beautiful Dripping Springs, Texas outside of Austin.

Jeff Ma
I love it. Love it. Tell me a little bit more about caffeine interactive tell me like, kind of I know you gave the high level, but what's your what's your passion that comes through that business?

Dustin DeVries
You know, it's really I think just working with people, I don't want to, you know, it's always hard to answer these questions without sounding like too cliche, but it really is working with people helping them solve their problems, I think especially we work with a lot of small businesses and startups. And so a lot of times they're wearing a bunch of different hats. They may not be very technical, we work with people say in like the oil and gas industry where, you know, they've embraced technology, but they're usually you know, dealing with things related to to petroleum and energy and things like that. And so being able to take something like helping them build a website, helping them automate their business or do something like that, and be able to break it down in a way that they can understand kind of breaking it down in layman's terms, and not just geeking out, I mean, I do have a tendency, because my background is in software development, and went to Texas a&m, back in the late 90s. Graduate the computer engineering degree. So you know, I can do some of the geek speak, but I really enjoy trying to break things down in a way that people people understand. And I think that gets into kind of that customer commitment that we that we try to portray within our business.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, absolutely. I think what you know, for those who follow the show, but I'll just say it out loud here. One of the things we try to do on love as a bid strategy here is bring a wide variety and diversity of guests and conversations to the table. And we've we've taught, we talked to like experts, academics and everything, what we've learned is that, you know, it's not really about the pedigree, the background or anything like that. We're always looking for stories, and I think people's stories really connect us. And then we tie that there's always a connection back to whatever we do for a living, or workplaces and things like that. Dustin, I know that. You mentioned the situation with cancer. I know that's a big part of your story. I wonder if you can, if you're willing to give a little more detail around that. Just how that how that affected you personally.

Dustin DeVries
Yeah, sure. So it was, you know, it's crazy, because I've never had health issues been relatively healthy person other than, like, average person started with weight from time to time, which lived a little healthier lifestyle, but never been in a hospital, you know, never any kind of any serious health issues whatsoever. And then it was back. And it's end of 2017 beginning of 2018, I just started having some weird pains, I started losing some weight, just like what is going on. And actually the weight loss I thought, you know, attributed to, I was going for walks every day, I was trying to eat a little bit healthier, do some things like that. But then I started having just these weird cramps and weird sensations and, and just sort of brought me to this point where you know, had to go to the doctor because I couldn't walk more than a mile to before I'd have to go sit down. And it's like, okay, something's not right. And I wasn't usually type, go run into the doctor in the hospital, when things go wrong. That kind of this mentality is kind of taking our users analogy, like taking your car and get a tune up or to get an oil change. I always find something else wrong with it always worried about that. We've been wanting other doctors so kind of shied away from all that right. And so I'm fine. That's it. Yeah, this is really bad. Like something's going on. And I can't function I've got to go on same time, and I'm running my business we have about, you know, close to 20 employees. We're a small business. So you know, I'm intimately involved in all of our projects with all of our customers intimately involved all of our employees in terms of the work we're doing, I'm not detached to the on my perch, while everyone else does everything. It's like very involved with everything. So all this is going on. It's like there's never a convenient time to get cancer. Right. But I mean, certainly not when you're trying to run a business. And so my wife is the co founder. So you know, we're both basically running this business and so I go in, so I've done some tests find out after a month or two thing and it was like some kind of GI issues something related to that. Finally went got an ultrasound and found this mass that was in my body. I mean, it was embarrassingly large. It was like 20 Something centimeters in size, like size of a football essentially, it's like holy crap, even fit in my body. I'm not a small guy, but like still, it's like what is going on? I found out it was wrapped around my aorta. And the initial thought was it was probably going to be a sarcoma, which is not not the good kind of cancer to get. So I spent about a month digesting that freaking out. Us changing you know, we were prepared we live in So I mentioned beginning to live in Austin. But you know, Houston is a great place for anything doing like there's MD Anderson, which is a great Cancer Center. Went on MD Anderson thought yeah, this is Really, this isn't just like, you know, stage one, let's go work through a few things and maybe graduate up to the big Cancer Center. So we went down to Houston and start getting test guided biopsy and everything else actually found out the good news and all this it wasn't a sarcoma, it actually ended up being testicular cancer, had metastasized into my retroperitoneal lymph nodes, and had ballooned, and these things do happen. Getting that large is a little bit uncommon, for sure. But I'm not the only one who's ever experienced something like this. So fortunately, I went through, fortunately, or, unfortunately, went through four rounds of chemotherapy there, and Houston. That was obviously brutal, really, you know, very difficult to, to work, tried to work. So I needed that sanity, I needed that regularity to my day. But when through all of that came out the other side, when I was done with chemo, the the masks have gone from 20 Something centimeters down to I think, like six centimeters. And basically they said it will keep shrinking over time. I think my last checkup that was in 2018, like September of 2018, is when I finished up chemo. last checkup I had was in 2020. And I think the maths was now under three centimeters is all scar tissue. So you know, basically the thought is, I'm cancer free, they can't quote unquote, say cancer free until it's been at least five years, size is still a little bit of a concern, because there is this residual mass, but when you're starting at 20, something centimeters is gonna be some scar tissue. And that's pretty much expected that, you know, I would have some kind of scar tissue mass that would be about the size, no continuous shrinks slowly over time, but but some cancer free now I don't have a lot of side effects from that other than I have some neuropathy that I deal with, I'm certainly a lot of blessings that came out of I think anyone that's ever been through that and been able to get through to the other side and, and survive it, and be able to reflect back on it. You know, walks away from that with something, right, you have some tangible value that you know, silver lining, whatever you want to call it that comes from that. And I certainly feel that way. And it's changed the way I reflect on life, the way I run my business, the way I work with my team. It was, you know, somewhat of a life changing experience, if you will.

Jeff Ma
Oh, thank you for sharing that.

Frank Danna
That's, that's definitely an incredible story. And I'm happy that you're, you know, from from what it sounds like on the other side of it and kind of just moving forward? How how did that impact your, your your workplace in regards to having a 20 or so employee team, your wife also being the co founder. So this is interconnected in ways that most organizations aren't. When it comes to dealing with a medical crisis and having to go through that process? What type of culture did did the organization have? In order to kind of sustain the the business as you were going through this or the relationships that you were building with clients?

Dustin DeVries
That's a good question. And I think that one of the things I'm happy about I'm proud of that I did when we entered this chapter of my life of our life, because you know, my wife is very much involved. In fact, I sometimes joke that I almost feel like the main support person, the spouse or whoever it is, sometimes has it even worse, because they're suffering dealing with all this and they're having a usually run point on things because the other person's unable so um, but you know, what I'm what I'm proud of. One of the things I'm proud of going into that whole experience was that I always treated relationships and the way I deal with people, you know, I hate feeling indebted to someone to the extent that like, and it's a little bit of a tangent, but like, going and borrowing a ladder from a neighbor go down to like, home people on rent one or something, you know, just because I don't want to put anyone out I don't want to feel indebted to people and that's almost to a fault and I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. But I think because of that I've always tried and then kind of coupled that with like, Stephen Covey wrote a book The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, right, and I don't remember the seven habits I haven't memorized but one of things I do remember from that was the whole idea behind the emotional bank account where you can make investments and then you know, you're able to make it withdrawal and not be overdrawn. And so I've always kind of approached all my relationships that way doesn't mean I'm always trying to give people things and make them feel like they're indebted to me you know, it's not that but it's always making sure that my my ledgers are in the black so to speak, right I'm always you know, I'm not overdrawn with anyone if I am you know, I'm doing something to fix it or, or whatever the case may be. So I think we always try to treat our employees pretty fairly customers as well. Always trying to go above and beyond, you know, under promise over deliver kind of thing you know, Just always managing that so that when we went into this period where it was like for a few months, not really sure what was going to happen, everybody was more than happy to come out and, and help and be supportive. And it also really changed my mindset from a personal perspective, just because I think that I'm sometimes a bit cynical about things. And my wife tells me, I'm really cynical, I think I'm more of a realist, but, you know, working between those two sutures, but like just realizing just how good people really are, especially in this day and age where everything is so politically polarized ours polarized, and we all just tend to sit there and think that, you know, we look at ourselves, we think everyone else is crazy. And it's like, you know, I just realized that really recalibrated my thoughts with people and thinking, you know, people are generally good. The average person is a good person who cares about others and wants to do the right thing. It was really cool to see and how many people wanted to help how many people wanted to be a part of not because they wanted to, like have something have some pellet, they could add to their, you know, what, a right to their belt, but like, they actually generally genuinely cared, you know, and I think that's something that kind of put myself in that situation as an outsider and having a friend going through any kind of medical crisis or anything like that, any kind of tragedy, thinking that, you know, I was always a little bit more hands off, maybe at times with with people that were hurting. Or maybe it was, it's better to be more forthcoming, not bugging them and harassing them. But you know, not just being standoffish, be like, Oh, you've got something big going on, you don't want to hear from me, you don't want to deal with me. So there's, you know, so many different things that came out of that, that really changed my worldview. And my perspective,

Frank Danna
do you think that you're kind of the pre pre cancer Dustin? When you were building this organization, this business from 2013? To 2017? Were you thinking about work life integration, or work life balance as being a little bit more structured, more rigid? In terms of how you were building the organization? And did that change after that? Or do you feel like you had I had built this consistency around how to view, you know, work life integration and balance.

Dustin DeVries
So I think I was already thinking about work life balance, cuz I remember, you know, we've, we've gone through some other challenges in our personal life, you know, we went through, mentioned that we have two kids that we adopted, we adopted through through foster care, this is back in like 2010 2011. And there's some challenges related to that some challenges of our own just dealing with, you know, when you go into that arena, the type of things you experienced the stories you hear, not necessarily about our kids, but just in general. And so there was a lot of that, I guess, going on. And so I feel like, when it comes to like work life balance, it was something that was kind of already on my mind. Like, when I left, when I left the semiconductor industry and started out on my own a lot, a lot of that was for that reason to acquire work life balance, we were also dealing with infertility issues, which, surprise, surprise, maybe somehow is related to my diagnosis years later, right. But we're going through that, and so we want to just sadness, you know, every time we'd hear about another friend, and a couple, having a baby, you know, it's like, happy for them, but then sad for us. And it's like, so what I was able to pull away from the nine to five grind in the semiconductor industry, and be able to have a little more flexibility in my work life. To be able to handle the things I need to be able to put attention into my wife, and then as well, you know, into our relationship. And then when we brought kids into our home, and then you know, adopted them a year later, you know, they, they had some, some needs as well. So there was definitely this desire to, like, distribute out my time a little bit better be more on top of things so that when I am in the office, I'm being productive, and I'm giving it my all. And then when I'm not I'm able to devote to these other buckets that are important in life. So it was there. I mean, I will say that it probably, you know, recalibrated after cancer again, because I realized, Okay, well, there's things I want to do things I want to accomplish, and life is short, and maybe I feel a little bit like I'm living on borrowed time, you know, because I survive this, like, let's make the best of it. And so, yeah, there was after cancer as well.

Jeff Ma
You know, these these kinds of events in life, as you already mentioned, really, really change our perspective. And I appreciate you sharing the story today, because I think not all of us have had the, you know, benefit or curse of you know, these types of things happening to us ourselves. But I think I'm really I'm curious if you can articulate kind of, more specifically, what changes in perspective you've had or maybe examples of, of where you really see things differently. Now, after having gone through this? How does the world what are the some of the different perspectives that actually apply now?

Dustin DeVries
You know, definitely taking things less seriously taking certain things less seriously maybe other things more seriously, you know, my time with my family being present as a father as a husband, and you know, I don't I don't do these things, well, I could do a better job. But they're at least you know, they're things I do work on. So I think there's that that perspective, and definitely just having more patience with with people, you know, even things like now you're going through COVID and all this, we've got employees that are taken off to go get vaccinated, go get a booster shot, you know, and like we're before maybe didn't really think about now I'm like, Well, you know, like, if you need to take some extra time off, like, obviously, that's totally fine. And don't let's not worry about PTO on this sort of thing, giving some flexibility there and stuff like that even considered for a while moving to like a, you know, structure within our business have kind of the, the, where they call it bottomless PTO, or, you know, not having any limited, unlimited. Yeah, unlimited, I'm going with a model like that, just some legal aspects of it, we opted against that, but it's just something I've thought about with with our employees, like being compassionate to them. And like when somebody has some kind of personal issue that comes up and somebody's sick, or somebody is in the hospital, or whatever else, just trying to be aware of that and not just be so structured, like, okay, when are you going to be back, okay, we need to fill in all the logistics around how we're going to cover for so and so. But just maybe saying like, Hey, give me some time, just just take it, don't worry about the PTO, don't worry about all this stuff. And it doesn't mean we don't track PTO at all, we still do. But that's one of those things, I just feel like, it goes back to that that whole emotional bank account thing of like just giving to people being you know, it's not really that big of a thing to tell someone, oh, don't worry about, but then PTO, because you're gonna take half a day, because you're feeling bad after your COVID Booster. It doesn't, that's not a big impact us as a company, but to them, you know, knowing that we care and being able to do that sort of thing, I think is is huge, because at the end of the day, you know, we care about things employees, and as owners and whoever, whatever your role is, you certainly care about the financial aspects of everything you do. But there's so many other intangibles that are just as important if not more important, to your happiness and success in your job than than just, you know, what kind of paycheck you're bringing home each week. And I think that's something that we really tried to focus on more, but our you know, our team is distributed, we have a development team in the Philippines and other development team down in South America. Um, you know, so we don't have a says a challenge for everybody these days, because everybody, most people are working remote, especially in high tech. But um, you know, so it's difficult to build that culture the way you can when you're all you know, in the same office, but we've tried to nonetheless,

Frank Danna
yeah, for me, it's interesting, I mean, hearing about the approach that like, it sounds like your company is truly driven by empathy. And, and sort of motivated by empathy, at least that's how it sounds as an outsider looking in is that there's this very empathetic understanding of, you know, not just feeling what someone else is feeling, but being willing to, to support in a way that allows them to see the compassion behind it, that it's not, hey, I need you to recognize that this six hours I'm giving you today, you have to pay that back on Saturday, right? Like, that's not what's happening here. And the value of that is that everything on your balance sheet, all of the finances, the business outcomes, all of what you're trying to do, ultimately, payroll at all, all those numbers equate to a person. And so if we're taking care of the people, the bottom line is taken care of. Right. So creating, creating an environment and an ecosystem, where people feel like they belong. Like they're included. Like there is real compassion, you're going to see performance improve, you're going to see individuals care, and be willing to show up and sometimes even put in additional effort when necessary when they know they have to support others. And and that's something that's true for us. I'm wondering, is that something that you have also seen in regards to the the outcomes from operating from a place of empathy?

Dustin DeVries
Without a doubt, and I think the challenge though, is to make it authentic, because it does it does come from an authentic place, right, right thing is a small company. It's much easier for us to do because I'm talking to every single one of our employees on a daily basis and I know what's going on and you know, we're constantly in contact with each other. When you get to be a large organization. Obviously, that's a real challenge. You start systematizing a lot of the stuff right? That's what comes out is maybe not as genuine and I don't know that all you know, some Times look at some of the things that go on. You know, sometimes I have my own doubts about certain brands and like, do they really empathetic? Are they really, you know, is it really about, they see some kind of financial benefit, or maybe some other kind of benefit, but I think at the end of the day, you know, don't don't necessarily want to someone's doing the right thing. You know, you can always be judgmental about that. But, and that's not even my point in this is to go off and start criticizing things, because I think that there's a lot of good that's going on in that from that perspective, as well. But definitely, for us, I mean, leading with empathy, and like, just trying to do the right thing, not necessarily thinking about it from mean, it, it certainly crosses my mind, you know, and I think back to, like, some of the first customers we had, and you have an opportunity to make a lot of money on one project, or you have a lot of you have an opportunity to build a nice relationship that's going to create a long term relationship. And I've always tried to play the long ball from a business strategy perspective with our customers, right? And, you know, there's probably some you think, like altruism, and some of these sort of things, like, there's probably some element of like, yeah, like, back my mind, something constantly subconsciously thinking, well, if I do this, it's going to benefit our company more, we're going to make more money. But I'm not trying to lead with that, you know, I'm really trying to check all that out and just say, Let's do what's best for employees, for our customers play that long ball, because I think it will pay dividends down the road, if we treat people the way we would want to be treated in the same situation. So it goes for customers, it goes for employees, you know, it goes for everybody that we associate with our vendors, whoever it might be just treating them them fairly and being respectful. And again, I think we have an unfair advantage being a smaller business than maybe larger companies do. Because we're able to do that, you know, just more reactionary than, as opposed to having some kind of system, you know, right, an SOP plugged in somewhere that we're pulling out. And you're gonna figure out what do we do when someone says they have a sec? Okay, well, we go to section 3.1. And do that, you know, it's not like that, right?

Jeff Ma
Well, on the flip side, I think as a small company, I think small companies that go through a situation where their top leader or their top leaders are both taken out by an event like this, typically have a very hard time surviving or bouncing back from from from that that event. So I'm curious what, what behaviors or cultural aspects you might attribute your company's ability to survive that, that period of time through that, because it's not an easy time, when you know, like you said, you're able to talk to each person, you're able to be the center point, and the kind of leader within that space very easily when it's small. But at the same time, when you're taken out by something like this, a lot of people are left without their leader. And without that, that, you know, guidance. How did your team stay resilient during that time?

Dustin DeVries
Well, you know, I mean, even though I said, you know, was kind of anti systematizing empathy, right, like, we did systematize other aspects of our business. So, you know, doing things like coming up with standard operating procedures for the way we work. And so, you're trying to get to where it's not just based on heroics, it's not just based on this person knows this, and this other person knows that me as the owner, I'm the one who's shuffling everyone around, make sure the right people in the right spot. So then if they're not, then nobody knows what to do. So there's putting the systems and processes in place, which definitely helped. But, you know, again, I think leaning on the team, and being empathetic and supportive to the rest of the team really benefited us greatly, because when I went down, and my wife sort of went down, as well through all this experience, right, because we're both kind of offline, you know, the people stepped up and you know, the, the thing that I kind of joke about is, like, that's the ultimate way to stress test your business, right as take out the two founders and see what happens. And that's kind of kind of what we did. And also, you know, I purposely wanted to say check done, and there was a lot of things, I think, when you're going through something like this, you know, if I would had a different type of situation, you know, some people get cancer, and they go through, like massive surgery, or they have something that's super debilitating, and it goes on for years and years. And, you know, fortunately, wasn't that it was like a four month period, five month period where I was really the chemo was like, three months, you know, and within that, you have days where it's like, okay, I'm not going to be out for like, days, seven through 12 Because that's when things are the worst, but then the rest of the 21 day cycle, you know, I'm, I'm able to function somewhat. And so I would, I was still getting online, and I'm still doing, you know, a decent amount of work just because I think for me, I needed that normalcy. You know, I think sometimes I think we all are maybe like that a little bit. You know, we're creatures of habit, we have our routine. So I didn't want to jeopardize any thing, you know, I didn't want to jeopardize my health and be this guy, it's like, I'm gonna keep working even though like, you know, I'm like, going through all this, this craziness, I wanted to make sure I was healing, and I did take my time when I needed to, but I needed that normalcy as well, and to stay connected with people. So, you know, really wasn't like just checked out for three months. But at the same time, I think we had built the right systems and the right processes, the right people, who put a lot of emphasis on making sure we hire the right people. And so because of that, you know, everyone's just super accommodating. And we have a particular account manager slash project manager, who has been almost like an Executive leader within our team, and she really stepped up and just really drove things when, when we were out. And if she still with our, with our company today, and really appreciate what she did during that period. And but she's not the only one. There were others business analysts on our team that the development team stepped up, everybody, you know, really did step up. And I think it really goes back to just treat people well, then they're gonna be, you know, they're gonna feel like they want to they want to do the same. Law of Reciprocity, right?

Frank Danna
Yeah, I think that's interesting. And it feels like, you know, in talking about this, there was also a sense of dropping kind of pride and ego and titles, for the benefit of everyone, right, and making sure that there was this this common care that was showcased across the organization of like, we're going to get what needs to be done, done. And we're gonna do it, whatever it takes, essentially. And I think that's very interesting, like, learning hearing about this from you. And sort of learning in real time, I can hear that there was this, this approach towards kind of the reduction of the ego and the necessity around titles, and there was more vulnerability around, hey, I'm ready to jump in, I'm ready to empower other people, I'm ready to be empowered by other people, I'm ready to kind of create this, these more like tighter bonds of trust, like all of these elements were at play. At least that's how it sounds to me in order to be able to effectively do what needs to be done even in that short period of time.

Dustin DeVries
Yeah, I think I think you're right, um, you know, to kind of respond to that. I mean, one of the things I think about, this is a management tactic picked up. Not from a business context, but I apply it to business context. And that's the idea of the upside down pyramid management structure, where, think about the CEO, co founder, whatever it may be at the top of the pyramid, and then, you know, at the bottom is all your individual contributors, and you got layers of management in between there. And I've always tried to think of it more as being upside down. And it's, you know, what don't sound like too gimmicky. Or, you know, we have, we have our faults, too, you know, we're not so in a perfect company, but like, just thinking about, as, like with employees, the best thing you can do, as a manager of a set of employees, is to empower them to be their best. And I truly believe that, because I think that if you're having to pull them as opposed to, you know, enabling them, I think there's always an opportunity, there's a missed opportunity there, if you don't, if you don't approach things that way. And so I'm not, I'm just not that, that type, like, I've always thought, in an ideal world, like, if we grow this business, to a point that I can be, like, you know, chairman of the board kind of thing and have an executive team and lean on the like, I don't, I don't do this necessarily, because I want to be famous because I want to be powerful. I think if you think about kind of the three things, kind of vices or whatever you want to call them drive people fame, power, or fortune. If if I'm doing my anything, it's probably by the financial side wanting to but I don't, I don't care about, like, having power or feeling like you know, I'm managing a company. I don't Yeah, I think the there's maybe a part of me when I first started business, like felt kind of cool. Like, yeah, start my own business kind of talking to people about it. Oh, like so far beyond that, you know, I think to me, I just want to do well serve our customers build a company of good people make some money in the, in the process. And, you know, I don't I don't I don't know how some of these people do it that build these massive companies and they have no intimate and what's the word anonymous, they can't say it. You know, they don't they're no longer anonymous, right? They everyone knows who they are. Right? And I don't I don't know that I'm really that type of person. I would rather be able to, you know, have a like, not being front and center, I guess, you know, and that maybe that ties into ego. Maybe it has to do with just being you know, not I'm big on those sorts of things. I don't know what it is.

Jeff Ma
I think one of the things that we see consistently and working with just humans in general, but especially in a business context, is that your, your next, your next crisis is out there waiting for you. And it's like, it's very easy, especially in good times to kind of be like, Okay, well, let's, you know, let's keep the ball rolling, let's increase profits, let's do more and more and more. And we're not always it's easy to look back at crisis as you've gone through, and see kind of like, okay, what made it work? What didn't and not enough of us are kind of saying, Are we resilient now today, for the inevitable crisis, the inevitable thing that's going to hit us, and it can be anything, it can be cancer, but it could also just be economic downturn, it can be a competitor, it can be any? A lot of things, right. And so I think these stories are important, Dustin, I think, kind of hearing yours is, is important for people to continue having that perspective of how do I build resilience in my, in my team in my organizations, because we are, that's like, one fact, if you're in, you know, if you're in business, you're going to hit a crisis, at some point, you're going to hit another crisis, if you've already had one, it's going to keep that just this up and down a business just, it's just the reality. And I think, you know, building, you know, all star performing teams is one thing, but is your team resilient is is a different one. And I like, I like that you kind of value the values that you had coming into your your crisis just made it, you know, made it work. I don't know if enough people have that, you know, that that that perspective yet. So I really, I really hope people are taking that to heart and kind of seeing that their crisis can be around the corner, what would How would your team react? How would your team bounce back? And come together in those times, I think is an important question for people to ask.

Dustin DeVries
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think the resilience thing is so important, too, because you're, I think, you know, in our business, things come in waves, and you've got the cyclical economy got all kinds of other things going on, too. And I've always admired businesses that managed to show some level of constraint when, when things were really booming, you know, they would grow, they would, they would ride the wave, but they wouldn't go overboard with it, they would try to hold back a little bit, knowing that there may be something, you know, around the corner that they need to deal with. And that's just the, that's just the predictable things, right? Like we can kind of, sometimes it can feel a little bit unpredictable, but you know, in general, it goes through cycles and stuff like that, right. And then there's these all these unpredictable things like health issues, or whatever the case may be. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's something I think it's good for everyone to think about just to be focused on, like, what happens, you know, don't have to go overboard with it. But just be thinking about that, like, what, what would happen if we lost this person, or this person was out for, you know, a certain period of time or whatever? And, you know, like I said, I think I think we managed it pretty well. I don't know that we were that forthright with it. We weren't planning it that well ahead of time. But I think we did. We love the principles that would go into doing that we put into place. So we realize that benefit when we went through this crisis, and yeah, I couldn't be more proud of my my team and the the people that supported me on the business side, as well as everyone who supported me personally, the people who came out of the woodwork that I hadn't talked to for years, who just sent me a quick text and you know, hey, I'm praying for you, I'm thinking about you, or whatever the case may be. So yeah, I think that's just, you know, large extent, you know, life is about these relationships on and nurturing those relationships and trying to be a good person. And then you know, sometimes the things come back, come back around to help you.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. I love it. Dustin, I really appreciate you joining us today. And yeah, and sharing your story, I think is something that we can all relate to, to what at one level or another, and it impacts us at a human level. So I really appreciate you taking the time to share that today.

Dustin DeVries
Oh, no problem. It was it was a pleasure to be here.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in today. We hope you enjoyed it. And as always, I'll never stop plugging our book because love is a business strategy. The book is still on Amazon Best Selling on Wall Street Journal, etc, etc. Please do check it out. And subscribe and rate our podcasts if you can tell a friend cetera. This was a great conversation. Dustin, once again thank you for being here. Frank, thank you for joining me. And with that, I'll be signing off.