Katie McLaughlin  
Many folks are maybe familiar with kind of the four box of urgent versus important. And we live so much in the urgent box, even if it's not important and not enough in that quote, unquote, not urgent but important box. And that's that's really what team health is all about. You.

Jeff Ma  
Hello and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff MA and I'm here to have conversations and hear stories with real people and real businesses and real life. My guest today is actually a returning guest to this show. Almost two years ago, she was on the show, but I, in a very rare occurrence, was not available, so I had a substitute. You all know Frank. Some of you know Frank,

Katie McLaughlin  
I believe interviewed case. This is my first time getting to interview two years lady later, Katie McLaughlin. And Katie is an engaging speaker, workshop facilitator and strategy consultant with over 15 years of experience in high growth companies such as Wayfair, up serve and Rocket Lawyer and in 2020 Katie founded the McLaughlin method, a boutique consulting firm specializing in improving team and company culture through actionable, interactive skill building programs. She facilitates team workshops as the core focus of her practice customizing sessions to fit specific industries, team dynamics and outcomes, and she leverages her background in theater to create fun, judgment free environments where teams can improve collaboration and achieve goals through empathy, open communication and conflict resolution, which I love. She has facilitated 1000s of workshops helping teams build collaborative cultures and achieve immediate improvements in empathy and connectivity, and that is why she's here today. Welcome back to the show. Katie McLaughlin, how are you, Katie, I'm great. Thanks so much, Jeff, and I'm excited that we're finally talking on the air. That's right. That's right because we chatted to to bring you onto this show. Like, we had a little chat offline, and we're like, oh, this will be great. And then when the day of recording came around, I don't even remember what happened, but because it was two years ago, two years ago. And so here we are, how the last two years treated you.

You know, it's like, I think everybody is experiencing, it's been like, this really weird time of, like, trying to emerge into our  "New World. Post", post, "pandemic". You know, I feel like this year 2024, is kind of the first year where people are starting to actually feel some more "normal", but it's always our It's our new normal, right? And so that's definitely been reflected in both the work that I've had with clients and the things they're going through, and, of course, in the workplace as well. So yeah, I think, I think I was hesitant coming into 2024 but I think nearing the end of 2024 I think post pandemic is okay to say. 

Jeff Ma  
Now, I feel like this is, that's a good point you bring up, because I think it's been almost, I don't, I was scared to say it for a while. Like, can we say post like, almost, like, you hold your breath. But the new normal is here, and here we are. So Katie, I am curious, what is your passion, and how did you find it?

Speaker 1  
Oh, well, my passion is people. And I know that that maybe sounds kind of generic initially for you know, a coach, a business consultant, a facilitator, but I have always found people really fascinating, and both through my own journey, like self reflection, mental health, like personal development wise, as well as, of course, as a facilitator, because most of my career has been in learning and development or coaching or training in some way, and I Just, I think it's so fascinating how our brains work, and also how our brains get hijacked by emotions, some of what I imagine we'll talk about today, but you know, also, just like the beauty of connection, you know, between different people, and how we really are Better Together, you know, So that's I'm really passionate about people. And for me, you'll see my for those of you watching video, you'll see my theater masks behind me, and you heard in my intro that, you know theater is a passion of mine, but it's a passion because of the people components of theater, and like that realness of experience and the richness of understanding people and relationships and thinking about how that impacts our society and, of course, business,

Jeff Ma  
yeah, and we're here to talk. I invited you to talk about, I guess, Team health is this is the title when we talk about teams, I think one of the reoccurring themes on this show revolves around leadership, revolves around behaviors, which I'll never stop, kind of pushing for and trying to change the world in. But I don't know that we I don't know that we spent enough time kind of talking about the team itself, as I was really excited to kind of break that open with you. And I guess I'll start with this with a question around when it comes to teams, I think I've seen many schools of thought, and I think there's some who prefer to approach their team or from a leadership, leader's perspective. They look at a team and it's, it's X's and O's and science, it is. Here's, here's how you lead, here's the strategy, the procedure, here's what works, here's the XYZ playbook. And on the other end of the spectrum, you have, you know, it's humans, it's, it's raw emotion and relationship, and it's, it's all those things. And I guess, you know, there's everything in between. So what, how do you define a team or and what, where do you sit on that kind of

Speaker 1  
spectrum? Well, I think because our society and our kind of institutionalized or system, like systematic way of thinking about teams is so data focused, is so checkbox focused, I think that's why myself and others like are trying to really push the spectrum, or the pendulum, in the other direction towards the people and human side of experience. And you know, we're really seeing that in what people are looking for from their organizations, that they want to be treated like a human and, you know, the there was a lot of talk when, like, millennials, I'm a millennial, entered the workplace, and how we were, you know, kind of shifting things and starting to demand more. But I actually feel like we started to lay some groundwork for Gen Z, who's coming in, and it's like, nah, nah, like, this is required and, and so that's why we're, you know, we saw the great resignation, which I don't think has really ended, but there's been so much more focus on, like layoffs and things like that. And, you know, at the core the team is that core that you relate to, connect with, interact with, on a regular basis. And you know, in general, companies are like, oh, we need to invest in culture. But again, that's seen as a checkbox activity. And if you've got a leader who has a team, and the organization is not going in the direction culturally that they want to Well, what can they do? They have a team, and they can have impact there. And so, if nothing else, look at the sphere of influence that you have. You know the areas you can "control". I say quote unquote, because we can't control other people. We can only influence them. But you know that that is an area where we can have the most impact, and it is our teams that have the most impact on how we feel about our jobs, how we feel in the workplace, whether or not we feel valued by our organization, and we need to do work there, and if we do work in each team, then that broader team, you know, the organization, is going to get better and stronger.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, I find that to be quite a hurdle for some right? Because if I have a team as a leader, I still have a boss, and technically, I'm a part of that boss's team, and it's one of those things where sometimes you feel like everybody's waiting for the train to move before they get on it. They want to see that from the very top, there's a push, and that's just not happening fast enough for for some and why I'm hearing you, what I'm hearing you say is like, just get your little Caboose going yourself,

Katie McLaughlin  
yeah, get the engine going,

Jeff Ma  
go and see if they'll follow

Speaker 1  
Right exactly. Yeah. And then they're going to want to hitch their train, you know, their little, you know, cars or whatever, they're going to want to hitch that car to your engine and your train that's already going right. It's how you as a leader can make a bigger impact on your broader organization, because it's not just about creating a great team, it's creating a great team so you can do great work, and your leader cares about your team doing great work. And so you know, if you can do both of those at the same time, which is the goal, you know you're going to make a name for yourself as a leader. And. If people are going to want to work for you, they're going to want to stay, and the rest of your organization is going to be like, hey, this team, this leader, they haven't lost anybody like and people keep wanting to like, transfer to their team from outside of their organization. What's going on there?

Jeff Ma  
So let's move it into Team health, which is the title of what we said. So define, I guess, Team health in your in your definitions, because two different words, team and health, but where, how broadly do you put them together? What does it mean when you say team health?

Speaker 1  
So I use team health as kind of a comparative metric, or, you know, informed by or inspired by this customer health metric that a lot of software SAAS companies use to be thinking about potential churn risks for their, you know, subscription customers, etc, most of my career has and a lot of my customers are in tech. And, you know, it's all about warning signs, and that's really what team health is about. What are some potential warning signs or sticky situations that, if left unresolved, are going to continue to erode that team experience, where the goal is that as a team, we're working together. We're all on the same train. We're going in the same direction. We're each playing our part and, you know, bringing our full selves to it, and feel like we're stepping into a healthy environment for us, mental, mentally, physically, work, balance wise, you know, just enough challenge, but also feeling like we can leverage our strengths. You know, it's a really comprehensive thing, and isn't just, you know, check the box activities, but i i Help laser, laser in leaders and teams to some of those indicators that teams aren't, aren't actually as healthy as you think they are, and where work needs to be done.

Jeff Ma  
So I just heard you kind of describe it, or define it, kind of in the inverse or in the negative, which is like, these are like health. Your health is defined by making sure none of these things are found. Is that. So it is kind of, I guess, a little bit of a like, like, looking for symptoms, looking for busy disease, looking for unhealthy things, almost in that same sense, right? So, you're, you're kind of a doctor, when you think about it, right?

Speaker 1  
Yeah. And of course, there are, like, leading indicators of a healthy team. You know, one of those things is, you know, do people have at least kind of two people on their team that they at least like working with. They don't have to be friends, like for a long time in the employee engagement space, the whole Gallup question of, you know, do you have a friend at work? We all thought like, oh, that means people want to stay, it doesn't. It just means that they're going to take their friend and be a complainer with that friend, and then them and their friend are going to leave together, right? But if you like working with them, that's a leading indicator that there's some like positive interactions, there's some collaboration that can happen. But you know, that's not the only thing, right? If you can also maybe laugh together as a team. That's a leading indicator that there is, like, healthy energy, healthy culture, supportive, maybe not taking each other too seriously. And then there's also other healthy leading indicators, like opposing viewpoints can be brought up in a constructive way. And so that's not it's like healthy conflict. So you know, where we don't all have to agree, and it's actually really important if we don't all agree, because we get to better solutions faster, and it that's what also like, breeds a safe place for diversity and diverse ideas by really being inclusive of all those perspectives, and not taking it personally when someone contradicts you, or what have you, and you know, being open to that. So those are some of the kind of, like positive things that you want to be striving for, or can be indicators of we're moving in the right direction too.

Jeff Ma  
So you're, so, you're the team health doctor, and a patient comes in and you look at a team what's, what's that? That big thing that stands out right away, where you're like, oh, like, you need surgery right away. What? What it like take them to the or, because this is, this is bad, like, what is that big like? Maybe even obvious, but kind of just what is that big thing that stands out, that your team health is in bad shape.

Speaker 1  
Well, so whenever I step into a workshop, you know, with a team, there's usually an immediate energy that is like. Like that is super present and very like divisive, you know, it's clear that, like, when I ask, because I, you know, always have people kind of stand in a group, especially if we're in person, you know, it's clear people kind of group together with their their people that they feel safe with. And when I start to kind of mix up the group, that they are maybe a little hesitant or what have you, you know, but beforehand, when I'm, you know, talking with folks, it often looks like these kind of intangibles that people can't really figure out. Why aren't we performing? Because, at the root of it, the leader is looking at, why aren't we hitting our goals? Why aren't we meeting our metrics? And that, you know, that's one thing. But then there's also these moments where it's like, oh my God, our team is so full of drama, right? Like, feel like we all really relate to that concept. Like, Oh, right? Or, gosh, they're just like, not willing to, like, get over something and get on the bus, because, you know what? Business does change, and we do sometimes have to suck it up and make changes that we don't love. But there are ways we help people to get on board the bus to make those changes. And if we haven't done that work, that's where we need some of that surgery, because people need the opportunity to say, in that instance, I I think you made the wrong choice right, and it just because they've voiced that, like, I think you've made the wrong choice. And here's why. Doesn't mean that the actual organizational or team has to change, or the strategy has to go somewhere different, but it's acknowledging their need for talking it out, or being able to express themselves, be seen and have the leader respond like with a genuine I hear you. I understand why that's important to you, or help me understand even better, why that's important to you, so that way we can all move forward together for these reasons. So those are some just initial thoughts that come to mind for me based on your question, yeah,

Jeff Ma  
and for me it I'm a huge passion advocate for the presence of curiosity amongst really any humans, but especially in a team, when we talk about vulnerability and trying to build empathy and trust and all these things across team members, I think I often see this lack of curiosity, which whether it's, you know, when people don't get along like they're busy debating their side the argument, rather than being curious about what the other person is saying, or if they have an experience, they make assumptions, and they don't have the curiosity to wonder if they could be wrong, or seeing something different, or assuming the wrong intent, all these elements of curiosity, I think, have been lost in the busyness of our, of our day to day,

Speaker 1  
right? The pressures, right? And the stress and that, you know, those fire drills and deadlines, yeah. I mean, it's like many folks are maybe familiar with, kind of the four box of urgent versus important. And we live so much in the urgent box, even if it's not important and not enough in that, quote, unquote, not urgent but important box. And that's, that's really what team health is all about, is what's in that maybe not urgent but important box, and when does it become an urgent thing? Right? We are, like, literally blocked as a team. We are not getting we're not getting past this, you know, argument, this conflict, and we need an intervention, because, like, we've now moved this important problem into the urgent category where we are, like, full stop and not going to meet these really important customer deadlines or investor deadlines, or, you know, or what have you. And that's where it's not just about firing people. It's not just about as a leader, maybe, or taking on all the work yourself, right? It's about, okay, how do we how do we get at the heart of the problem? This is my favorite stuff to do. How do we get at the heart of the problem, address people's needs about that problem, which are usually an opportunity to voice what's going on and then move forward together in a collaborative, supportive way, by addressing everyone's needs.

Jeff Ma  
So So let's dive into that a little bit. So what's the what's the right way to do what you just said there? So like that to me, that that's the or that's the that's the operation that needs to be done. What? What does it look like do?

Speaker 1  
Yeah, well, the way that I approach it is, I don't believe it's helpful for us to say things like this. Is why I hate this decision, right? Like, or I, you know, you hurt me when you did this. Or, like, I really hate working with you. Like, those things are really not helpful to say in terms of moving forward. And so the, you know, the first thing that I do is I have fun again as a group, I bring in some of those theater, you know, kind of almost like an improv type games, you know, just being silly, especially when I do it online or virtually, like I have people make funny faces and, you know, wave your hands in the air, things that you like never do on Zoom and or, you know, insert video platform, and, you know, just start to break that ice. And then what we look at is whatever that kind of situation is say it's, you know, a big change. We're being asked to really pivot our work, and it's a really close deadline, okay? And so I have people create images, kind of the 1000 words, you know, an image is worth 1000 words concept. I have people create images of how they're feeling about that particular situation, and I usually have them make it larger than life, something they would never do in the workplace. And the reason why we do that is because emotions are really complex, and we don't have a shared language to talk about them. I have a big passion for words and word choice, and we're really bad at it as humans. And what we what we lack in kind of language unification we have, in a capacity. Neurologically, even I've gotten really big into like neuroscience and how we can leverage that as leaders. But neurologically, images or visuals are easier to understand than language or written word many times. And so if I create an image where, like, my hands are up in the air and I'm squinting and scrunching myself. You know, that conveys a lot more than me saying in probably a diplomatic, typically professional way, of I'm afraid of I'm afraid of doing this thing that's not as impactful as that raw portrayal of an emotion like that. And we're all the whole group. The whole team is creating an image based off of that same prompt at the same time. So nobody's being like, singled out or put on the spot. The leaders in the room too, because they're part of the team, and we then can start to see how we might have a lot more synergy of our emotional experience or reactions to what's going on than we think we do. And that's where we can then start to talk about the challenge we're having in almost a more objective way than just here's what's happening, here's our history, etc. It's okay if this is what we're feeling about the scenario. Maybe sometimes it might be helpful to tease out what's causing that, but other times it's more. How do we want to be feeling about this scenario, and how do we bridge that gap? How do we get there? What are the work agreements we need to create as a team? What are the steps that we need to go through? Are there? Is there more training that needs to happen, or knowledge sharing, you know, and really working together as a team to move through that conflict and that sticky kind of or required team health situation.

Jeff Ma  
I know you work with a lot of technology and groups, and I'm sure maybe even engineers and things like that. How I find that there's one hurdle there in particular that stood out to me as your is because I obviously agree with everything you said, but in practice, when you put a group of people together and you say we need to acknowledge emotions, I feel like one of two things happens. One is just pure skepticism and resistance to that very notion. But also, there's the there's the idea that there's this tendency to rationalize and move straight to logic and solutions and to, you know, like it's, I think a lot of people, especially successful people, because it works well to get work done, rationalize and immediately go to, well, you know, no, we're asking how you feel. And they're like, Yeah, I feel like we should have a weekly meeting. Thing that does XYZ, like, no, like, like, it's hard to separate those two things, like, right, so,

Speaker 1  
and what's your and that's why I don't ask people like, that's why I don't ask people to come in and say how you feel, right? Because that is a kind of gut reaction. It also doesn't usually feel safe in the workplace. Like team health and and like, creating a healthy culture in your team, psychological safety is a big like for buzz phrase, but at the core of that is, why doesn't it feel safe? Right? It doesn't feel safe because we just feel awkward and uncomfortable. It's not a thing that we do all the time, and we're maybe worried about our job. We're worried about retribution, you know, we're worried about not being seen as professional. And you know, with some teams, it's going to take us maybe either a longer workshop or a couple of different interventions where we're kind of leading up to a bit more vulnerability, right? But you know, at the end of the day, I also remind folks that especially when I'm specifically working on change, I think change and change management, of course, are big topics in the business world. When we're talking about change, every bad change and good change generates emotions. So even if we think about like the maybe, quote, unquote good change of getting married, having a child, buying a house, like some of those things that we might see as a good change also bring with it some negative emotions. There might be some grief of that change of lifestyle, right? There might be some grief associated with, you know, losing connections to other people who aren't in that, you know, identity group anymore. And there's also fears about, like, Can I do this? Well? Worries financially, right? Like, even the best change has negative emotions, so even the worst changes can have bright spots and positive emotions, and usually relating it back to everyday experiences that we all have can help people remember that that same stuff is present in the workplace too.

Jeff Ma  
I love that. And I think kind of, I'm drawing analogies of like you had the exercise of like drawing like a picture is worth so much more in terms of how we process. And it reminds me of how stories do a lot more than explaining right a singular thought or idea. It's like telling a story and experience and sharing that is such a powerful way for people to truly connect without realizing it. Yeah, so yeah, and

Speaker 1  
story is connected to that same part of the brain that is highly visual, and like that part of our brain developed before we developed language. And so we like if when we tap into that part of our brain, that's what like. That's why story makes so much difference. That's why that energy and emotional piece, it's super, super ingrained in us as, you know, physical human beings. And so we can't just shut it out from the business world. And I think, honestly, I think the pandemic really highlighted that for us, right? We're all we were all sitting at home in our stuff, you know, like our physical space, all of our, like, very real human stuff, of, you know, tiny humans, or, you know, pet children and sirens going around, and poor technology and right like just so many things outside of our control, and a really kind of scary thing going on in our world, and that was all part of work. You know, it wasn't separate anymore. And so I don't know that's my hope for that's my hope for the business world, that more and more companies are getting real about the fact that we can't leave emotions at the door.

Jeff Ma  
Well, put Katie. I think this conversation around team health is so important, and I think framing it the way you frame it, in my mind, helps a lot of people, because the same topic can be sliced and diced from different angles and approached as a very technical way and very this and that. And I feel like your perspective here isn't yet another one that probably resonates with a lot of people, so I appreciate you bringing and sharing it today.

Speaker 1  
Yeah, cool. Thank you. Yeah, great to chat. And you know, love all the work that you know you're doing over there as well. What's going

Jeff Ma  
on with you? Katie, do you have anything you want to share with the audience in terms of how they can reach out to you or find you or get your help?

Speaker 1  
So the if you're intrigued by this team health concept and want to know how your team is doing, I have a it takes three minutes to take this quiz to. An initial kind of baseline on your team health. And we'll drop the link in the show notes. You can also see it on my website, McLaughlin method.com, and so that is a really quick opportunity to see both, how are you measuring up on some of those negative team health things, and how are we achieving on some of those positive ones, and you'll be able to hop on a free consult with me afterwards to get like down and dirty into some of your scenarios. So you can move forward. Of course, bring me in to do a workshop, series of workshops, trainings with your team. And coming soon is a what I'm calling the scene at Work Live series, where we'll be doing some of these mini workshops with different business leaders like you, in order to, you know, help illuminate how to how to start thinking about your team and team health differently. That'll be on YouTube and on LinkedIn. Awesome.

Jeff Ma  
Sounds amazing. I'll put in the show notes, but out loud, what's the website? They can go to,

Katie McLaughlin  
McLaughli method.com, and the team health quiz is Teamhealthscorequiz.com.

Jeff Ma  
Awesome. We'll definitely include those. And with that, thank you so much, and thank you to the audience, as always, for sticking through it and enjoy. I hope you enjoy these episodes. Give us that feedback. Love it when you reach out and let us know what you like what you don't like. But check out the book, always plugging love as a business strategy, and you know, we're working on a second book. I don't know if I've shared that yet, but we're working on a second book, so look out for that around the corner. Hope everyone has a wonderful week two weeks. We'll see you in two weeks, and thank you again, Katie, we'll see you later. See you.