Bessi Graham  
If we pretend for a moment that our business is only ever going to break even would the world be a better place just by our core business activities happening. So we're not going to be able to make a donation. We're never going to be able to set up a foundation. But we're just going to run this business. How has there been a contribution? What does that look like?

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders tend to shy away from, we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear real stories from real people, real businesses, real life. And today, I'm joined by Bessi Graham. Bessie is the CEO and co founder of Benefit Capital. And she's an award winning entrepreneur, with over 20 years of experience working with business owners, governments and large funding bodies to bring doing good and making money back together. Bessi works with established business leaders who want to build on their success and align their company with their values, but are concerned about the impact of these changes on their bottom line. She shows them that they can do good and make money at the same time. And in fact, doing good might be the competitive edge that their business has actually been missing. Bessi also hosts her podcast, both success and integrity with Bessi Graham. So be sure to check that out later. And Bessie, I'm so happy to have you here all the way from Australia. Welcome to the show.

Bessi Graham  
Thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. And I typically open with the same question every time and I have for you. It's it's centered around you and your passion. What is what would you say is your passion? And what story arc in your life brought you to that passion today?

Bessi Graham  
Yeah, so the passion, if you looked for I always talk about things as like a strategic thread. What's the common theme that sort of runs through things and for me, that has consistently been around this real drive to awaken for people the possibility that business can be a powerful agent for change, and that you can actually do good and make money? So I have always been someone who likes to question why things have to be done a certain way and, you know, pushes back on just taking on board, what others say, is the way it has to has to be. And that has always just been really present for me in terms of how I've interacted with whether that was authority, or you know, the rules, what does that look like? And so what that has meant is that this common theme around both leadership and business, have always been present. And so I studied politics and international relations. But in my master's, I went into focusing on counterterrorism and looking at the aspects of how we actually influence others, and how how does leadership play out? What does it look like to actually create change good and bad. And so there's, there's been themes that keep coming back up. And so often probably like a lot of entrepreneurs, my life can look random, if you kind of looked at it in a disconnected way. But Jeff, I would say that, that that passion around doing good and making money and really awakening that in other people so that they have that shift in their mindset and actually look at the world differently question things and try to come up with answers to questions that are more connected to who they are and what they believe, rather than just what they've been told. has been that consistent passion that's kind of led me through many different businesses and iterations of my work and life.

Jeff Ma  
I love it such a powerful mindset to have to approach life. It's amazing that you found that for yourself and you center rounded I'm, I'm curious. I guess the first kind of mindset shift for the audience here could be is why. Why in your opinion, from your perspective? Is business or business success, considered? The opposite or or just not congruent with integrity or, or good or love or any of those things? Yeah, well,

Bessi Graham  
I would say that that is actually a, quite a relatively new thing, in that if we look, historically, business, trade, commerce, all of these things are deeply human. It's how we have always interacted, it's how we've been able to have something that we are passionate about, or a skill that we have to hone that craft, and be able to then take what we have created or made, and swap with other people and say, Okay, well, I've got a lot of tomatoes. And I will swap those foods for, for some bread from this amazing Baker, or what does that, that look like there are these pieces that are deeply human and a great expression of beauty and love and all of those incredible words that we are drawn to, and that bring us a sense of fulfillment and satisfaction. And yet, what we have seen is that in the 70s, what began to take over in terms of the language was around these ideas of obsessing around profit. And that business was about profit maximization and shareholder valuation being the, you know, the prime piece of of what we focused on if we were running a business. And that has taken hold. And if we go back to that piece of how do we, as leaders, be more nuanced in our thinking and question things more, we have taken that as if it is just a written rule, and it's a given in business. And yet it isn't. And it is only a newer thing, it does not reflect the roots of business, or who we are as entrepreneurs, as business leaders. You know, I don't know about you, but certainly in my experience working with hundreds of business leaders around the world, I've never met anyone who started their business with the pure focus of being, it is all about making money, I'm happy to tread on people's throats, I'm gonna get where I want to go. And that is my driver. People don't start businesses for that reason, yes, they want to be rewarded for that effort or for the risk they take there's, there is aspects of money, that can be a beautiful recognition of our work. And there's nothing wrong with wanting that. But it is not the central driver that I see of why people start businesses or why they persevere. It's hard work of running a business. And so I think that there are some misguided aspects of how we have characterized business. And then there are misguided aspects that we have taken on board as business leaders, where we then repeat back language that says, Oh, well, you know, I set up a business, not a charity. So really, I need to focus in the business if I'm here, and in work mode. With that hat on, I have to think about what makes commercial sense. How do I, you know, spend as little as possible and make as much as possible. And so in taking on those ideas, we have just accepted that the purpose of business is profit maximization, rather than stopping long enough to sit with and ask, Why did I begin this business? How could I think about it in a way that allowed me to show up more fully as who I am, and live out those aspects of success and integrity without having to choose one?

Jeff Ma  
I get the sense also, that the majority are like to think that most the majority of people who may be guilty of some of these more cutthroat and kind of profit centered mindsets, aren't necessarily doing it on purpose. I feel like they're not an inherently evil people and people with ill intentions. How did I guess? How did we arrive? Is this a societal thing? Is this an economics thing? Is this a technology thing? Like what what has brought us to this point where it's become almost synonymous? If you watch a movie, you know, the richer you are, the more evil you are, etc? Well, how do we get here?

Bessi Graham  
There's multiple things jumping into my mind, you know, one is I don't know if you've ever read any of Keltner his work, but he has done incredible research for over 20 years around power. And that comment that you just made around, you know, these in movies and these ideas of the richer or more powerful someone gets hurt how that plays out in in ways that we don't actually think, Oh, great. He's done some interesting work around what he calls the power paradox and how the things that actually got us into a position of power and authority are actually quite different to what we think they are in society, we have these notions, you know, like the Machiavellian ideas of, you know, it's cutthroat. And it's quite aggressive in how you achieve power. The reality based on if we actually look at a broader sense of history and look at the research is that we gain and maintain power by having a broader focus on others. And by having empathy and by people actually feeling a sense of rapport and trust in us, and then they give us more authority. So there's these interesting pieces around how power actually plays out. But the paradox comes in with the research does actually backup your point around without the consciousness to really stay in a place of integrity, power does corrupt, there are these pieces where we then begin to behave in the exact opposite ways that allowed us to achieve that position. And so it probably is worth people having a look at some of his work. And looking at some of that power paradox. He's got some really fascinating work that's quite easy to access and read. So that's one thing that comes to mind. The other piece, there's two other ideas that kind of come up for me when we think about why does this happen? And why do people behave in that way? I think we have to look at some of the aspects around what is the what are the incentives? How are we incentivizing the right behavior. And when we think about something like this obsession, on profit maximization, particularly on having very short term, reporting cycles, and needing to prove to either an investor or a board or anyone that you are making money and making it quickly, we have incentivized all of the wrong drivers for business leaders and business owners in the way that we've set up those structures and systems. And the, the, the incentivizing piece, what it does, is in the absence of someone being able to bring their whole self to work being able to have these aspects of, of love of feeling fulfilled, and, and showing up in that more human way. Because they aren't having those aspects around purpose or meaning being addressed. And they're being driven towards these short term goals and incentives, what happens is actually the only way you can get that that hit or the dopamine of like, satisfaction in that is to achieve that goal. And so there isn't any purpose or meaning in what is being put in front of you. And so the only way you can do that is more money, you know, bigger percentages of profit and chasing some kind of satisfaction from that, which is exacerbated by the third point I would make, which is those of us that tend to be entrepreneurs that that gravitate towards positions of leadership, or running organizations tend to be people who are achievers. We are the high performers, the ones who love to have a goal and to chase after that. And so when you put all of those things together, I think that is where you have this really tricky situation that is driving both really unhealthy aspects that are not sustainable, either environmentally, energetically for us as humans, we can actually function and keep consuming at that level. And yet we've created that system. And then they also have this very disconcerting, sort of reality for us as business leaders, which is it's very confusing. When you think I am ticking all the boxes, I am hitting those goals I am achieving I have position or authority power money. Why on earth? Am I feeling empty or unsatisfied? Why am I questioning is this it? But all of those pieces we just talked about? That's why people in these positions of authority are not actually satisfied and don't have that sense of fulfillment.

Jeff Ma  
There's lots of process there. I think there's, it's, it's it makes a lot of sense. At the same time, it's almost sitting in a space that's almost alien to what we know. Still, even though I mean, coming from me. I'm all about love as a business strategy. So I'm on the same page as you. And yet, the picture you paint is so out of reach. So help me understand, I guess jumping to this jump all the way to the end? Yeah. What what is the solution? How do we, you know, as you say, connect, you know, doing good and making money? How do we bridge that together?

Speaker 1  
Well, it's interesting, because so with you saying it feels either, you know, foreign, or it's this alien, very hard to reach concept. I would say that actually, part of what I have seen happen for, for leaders that I've worked with at least, is that there is something about these ideas that deeply resonate, and I think they resonate, because we know they are true. So there may be then this gap that says, Okay, I love that idea, Bessi. But give me the practical aspects, like you're saying of how do I get there? But I wouldn't frame it as new. And I wouldn't frame it as foreign or any of those kind of aspects? Yes, it might be something that requires a mindset shift. And it's quite a big one. But I think that it is us stepping back into something that we know we want, and that is possible. And so I think that's an important sort of distinction to make, in amongst what can be quite a heavy or intellectual concept to get your head around. So that's the first piece, I think, when we start to look at, how do you actually do this? A little bit like I brought up that piece around, this idea of profit maximization or shareholder primacy in business is actually new. So let's not accept it as this long held truth. Let's see it for what it is and question it. The same would go for these ideas of coming to a place of your own understanding of what success means for you, or what does it look like in your particular business to do good and make money. And that is to say that none of this is new. So if we go all the way back to ancient Greek thinkers, they always talked about that the most important thing, and the most difficult thing was to know yourself, but that is the starting place for any of these explorations. And so I would say, even if we were looking at your business, and saying, Okay, let's really get into your business model, let's understand what you're doing. And then figure out what does it look like to do good inside that business, we would have to start by knowing and understanding you, as if you are the either the founder, the owner, or the person leading that business, there is a need to have that clarity around self awareness. And so I always start with the reminder to leaders, that we have to lead ourselves before we lead others. And if we want to have an incredibly clear articulation of what is our vision, where are we headed as an organization, what do we want to be part of in the world, then we need clarity in two main areas, we need clarity around our values, because that's what we're grounded in. That's what allows us to come back to that from a place of checking if we're in alignment. And then we need to have clarity around our vision, because the human component is the need to be grounded in something and moving towards something. If we're only grounded in something, we will get bored, they'll there'll be those aspects of like, oh, I want to be moving I want to be making progress. And so I would say that they're the the foundation or elements that need to be there around that Know thyself piece. And then there is some really practical stuff, obviously in a in a short conversation, it's difficult to unpack all of the practicalities of how we get into doing good in each business. But the mindset shift piece that's important before we get into the particulars of a business model, is to first check that we have addressed what I call the two cap strap. So it's this idea that people might say, Yeah, that sounds great, I think you can do good and make money. But when I drill into what that means for them, they think, okay, in my business, I need to make as much money as possible. And then I'll be able to give a bigger donation, or when I sell the business, I'll be able to set up a foundation and contribute to the the issues I care about in the world. So they have what I call, they're in the external camp. So we're good sits external to your business, it might be enabled by it. But you're not actually thinking about the core business itself as a driver for positive change in the world. So the shift that I work with business leaders to think about as the starting point for their business is, how do we get into the internal cap where we're saying, if we pretend for a moment that our business is only ever going to break even? Would the world be a better place just by our core business activities happening? So we're not going to be able to make a donation, we're never going to be able to set up a foundation. But we're just going to run this business? Has there been a contribution? What does that look like? And it's not that I want you to stay in that place of never making a profit or never making a donation or setting up a foundation. But for me, they need to become the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. And the decisions that we're making, how we spend money, how we treat our staff, how we engage with our customers, or our suppliers in our supply chain, those decisions we have control over. That's where we need to bring the concept of good back inside the business.

Jeff Ma  
That's so profound. That's an amazing question to kind of ponder over around breaking even still adding value to the world, which, which which makes perfect sense, I think one of the hurdles in thinking that way, has to be this element of survivability for some businesses. So because there are businesses that are breaking even, and that's it, and the next month, the next two months might not even be a reality, if they cannot focus on. You know, I want them to call it profits because they're not profiting but they don't focus on revenue to survive. They don't and, and in their minds, is it's a, you know, do or die situation. Is there still room in that, in that space to be thinking like this? Can they afford to be still working on that element?

Bessi Graham  
Yeah, so I think they can. And in fact, I think you need to even more in that category. Part of why in my language. So this year, one of my big focuses is that I am writing my first book. And the challenge or the discipline that I've had to force myself into is, I've now been in this space for over 20 years, and things that I think are obvious, because I've been living and breathing it and not obvious. And one of the phrases that I've always used is this idea of you can do good and make money in writing the book and in drilling into unquestioning business leaders about the pushback that they have with that idea, the piece I've added on so if I look at what's the core message of my book, it's that you can do good and make money. In fact, doing good is the competitive advantage your business has been missing. And that second sentence is the piece that I think is what will help more business leaders start to engage with this because it shifts it out of the category of a nice thing to do. And it moves it into a category where you're saying, Ah, I'm unapologetically looking for a win win here, I need to keep designing this business model until the pieces that I am putting in place, the way I'm making decisions, the systems and processes in the business, all of those things need to not be compromising on either side, but they need to be mutually reinforcing. So if we go to your example of many businesses that are really it's an effort just to break even if you then look at this idea of doing good and making money and say, Ah, how would I engage in a way where it actually made the business more successful, profitable, sustainable, whatever word you want to use, but at the same time, it felt more fulfilling, I was making a difference and I was contributing. And that's where we would get into from a business model perspective and where you focus. I say that there's lots of different ways you can do good through your business, but there are three really natural entry point If one is around a customer focus, one is around a team focus, and one is around production focus. So depending what your business is, there will be a natural entry point there. If, for example, you're in that category, you're only breaking even, it's hard to justify doing these extra projects that are nice and good things to do. But they feel like a distraction from your core business. If the people that you work with so your customers, if the passion and driver of how you contribute in the world is that you actually achieve really incredible transformations for a client, there's changes in either their family or their life, or how they run their business. So the the changes that are occurring for the customer are really positive and a real driver for you as an organization. Then if you focus on that in your business model, and say, what are the ways that I just become more and more obsessed with getting the best possible transformation and outcomes for my customers, then in the process of doing that, you're doing more good in the world, because there's the flow on effect of what your customers are able to do. But if we look at it from a business model perspective, what happens when our customers are getting better results, is it automatically increases recurring revenue, referrals, the renewal aspects, everything related to revenue generation increases, because we have people going out into the world, raving about what we're doing the results, they got telling other people to come and work with us. There is this beautiful, mutually reinforcing piece, that you can be unapologetic about it because you didn't make more money, because you took advantage of someone, you made more money because you are achieving better outcomes. And, again, we don't have time to go into it in loads of detail. But if people wanted to look at some of that more, I have components on the podcast and the website that I talked about that. And I think that it is just that mindset, again, of how do you create the when when I'm not asking people to make decisions about doing good that actually put them out of business? That would be unhelpful, but it's starting to always look for, okay, how do I keep working my business model until I'm creating that outcome that has a positive contribution to the things I care about. But at the same time, it actually makes financial sense for the business.

Jeff Ma  
Like, like how that's framed, and it goes back to me wondering, as I picture this playing out for leaders and entrepreneurs, you know, what you said earlier about self awareness really stands out, because it's going to require almost a pause in this hectic kind of turmoil cycle that we get stuck in, to take a breath and look at what you mentioned in terms of our own values and what we consider success, right? I'm, I can't help but feel like we live in a day and age, information technology, social media, where self awareness has become a rare commodity. I feel like the world seems to be screaming at us all the time, what we should be and what success looks like, and what our values should be. And all these things. Do you do you find that to be true? And how do we fight that noise? If possible? How do we how do we seek that self awareness through all that clutter?

Bessi Graham  
Yeah, well, again, I think if you look at there's incredible work that's done around, say, the attention economy and the idea that it's actually not as humans, we are being bombarded with so much information that we cannot possibly process. And if we bring all of this back to that central idea in terms of a common theme in your podcasts around strategy, and this aspect of if strategy is saying no to good things, then part of our job in terms of being wise or discerning as leaders, is figuring out which of those things that might actually be great. Or Yes, I could justify why that would be a good use of time. But I need to figure out what to say no to the filtering, and being able to have tools and frames and strategies to be able to decipher what is the best decision here are going to be the critical pieces that we as leaders need to spend time on and become far more intentional about because otherwise all of those demands, noises, expectations, voices that you mentioned, are just so loud, that our achiever, our goal setting, kind of driven aspect of our personality will just kick in. And we will go hard after things that are not actually trending in the direction of where we want to go. And so I agree with you that it is much more difficult now than it once was. But I think it comes back to again, that discipline as a leader to say, Hang on. My job here is actually around being the person who has a clear sense of vision, who can articulate where are we going? What does that look like? And if something that is important to us, is that concept of alignment or being in flow, you can't be in alignment, if you don't know what you're trying to be in alignment with. If you're just going along with what everyone else says, then how does your team know whether that isn't aligned decision? How do you know when you have 50 pieces of information in front of you and all of these options? How on earth would you decipher the strategic thing to do the aligned thing to do? And so I would say yes, it is difficult. But it is the role of you of leadership. So if you are in that position, it is your job to sit with and discern and not try to always find ways to remove the judgment call or remove the discernment. Often we make a decision by not making a decision, so we can just let it play. And then we've actually made a decision through a lack of conviction or the courage to choose something. So the kind of there's so many aspects of this, that we could dig into the piece that I'd probably then leave that idea on in terms of how we think about that, as an entrepreneur, as a business leader is again, another beautiful ancient heuristics or thinking tool, which the Roman orators used, which was around saying, you know, they had these three pieces of what, so what now what, and I always say that for us, as entrepreneurs, and leaders, we need to make sure we're doing all three of those. Because often, we can be in the category of obsessed with being really smart. And that stays up in that space of what so you can list all the things you can seem like you're this conceptual, big picture, thinker, rattling off all of this, what you need to, though, as a leader be able to then do the sense making and the patterning that drills you down into. So what Okay, I see all of those pieces, what does that actually mean? So what? So pattern that, pull it apart, think about? How do I make sense of all of that information. And then the critical piece, which I actually think entrepreneurs, really, really good at that they need to harness it more is the third piece which is around now what and that is where courage comes in. Because that is where you say, okay, I can see all of the options, I have done the work to sense check and pattern and figure out what the meaning of this is. And now I'm actually going to have the courage to choose, and I'm going to step into action. But if we as entrepreneurs only strengthen the muscle of now what and we're always people who just jumped to action, we will massively increase the risk of landing in the category that you spoke about, where it's actually all of those external voices, the other people's ideas of success, that will be where our action pulls us. And we will not have actually gone through those critical steps, which will allow you to be strategic and will allow you to have a true a fuller sense of success that is based on what is aligned with who you are. I

Jeff Ma  
really wish we had more time because literally some of the most well articulated kind of framings of what this mindset really looks like it's it's very aligned to what we talk about often on this show, but we speak a lot of times and a little bit of philosophical terms and things like that. I think this this conversation strikes a really good balance specifically for business owners and leaders and people in decision making positions like this, about where, where our self awareness needs to go and kind of the conscious Things that we have to spend time on, I feel like this, you know, I'm going to probably clip this podcast and basically send it as mandatory listening to any business owner and send them your way. Because I feel I feel like what you're saying is just so important to, to at least hear if if you're starting a business, or if you're, if you're leading a business, it's such an important pause in, in our mindset to just hear what you said today. And at least try to, to explore that side of things. But I don't think people are honestly doing enough right now. So appreciate you for sharing what you did today. And clearly, so much more we could dig into, but already just it's a it's a lot. And so I really appreciate you for what you've shared today.

Bessi Graham  
My pleasure. I hope it wasn't too much. Sorry. It is that piece of it's such a rich, nuanced conversation that, yes, I would happily sit by the fire and talk to you for hours about it. But hopefully that's planted some seeds without overwhelming the listeners to

Jeff Ma  
it was perfect. I loved it and appreciate you. And I appreciate the listeners for tuning in. As always, I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Bessie. And hope to see you all back next week for another episode. If you get a chance. Be sure to check out besties podcast both success and integrity with Bessi Graham. And what's the what's the title of the book you're writing? Is it a working title? How far along

Bessi Graham  
well, we're still landing on that at the moment. So yes, watch this space.

Jeff Ma  
Well, I'm sure we'll be able to maybe reconnect

Bessi Graham  
back to you when it Yeah, absolutely. We'd love to.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. So with that. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for everybody tuning in, and we'll see you all next week.