Joni Goodman  
People feel like especially the higher in the ladder they climb, that they have to go things alone. They have to go it alone. And so we can't we can't become fully self aware by we're not meant to be on this journey alone

Jeff Ma  
Hello and welcome to love as a business strategy, the podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm here to have those real conversations with real people, real stories, and talk about real business in real life. So my guest today is Joni Goodman, and she's the principal at jdg advisors. She collaborates with her clients, employees, sales professionals, leaders and executives, together with them boosts learning initiatives, sales and leadership to achieve development goals. Joni is known for creating safe spaces where leaders can put down their armor and lean into growth. She strives to make a difference in the lives of others by tapping into and igniting them in their potential and greatness. Joni is a captivating speaker and engaging facilitator success oriented sales training expert sales meeting and event planning executor and a game changing executive coach coach with over 20 years in the learning and development space where she's delivered DEI workshops, disc MPI V, behavioral styles instruction and situational leadership curriculum. She's a certified professional in talent development, and was selected and trained by Brene Brown to be a certified dare to lead facilitator I believe one of the first in the world. So recently, she was named as one of the Texas executive women's 2023 women on the move honorees. She's the past president of the ATD Houston chapter annual Leaders Conference planning advisory committee chair and a past national advisor for chapters. She's also a published author in the book of road tested training activities, Association for Talent Development training toolkit application and 101 ways to make training active. Joni has been a featured speaker for the HR Houston Gulf Coast symposium ATD ice at the Houston ATD San Antonio gulf coast of diversity council and Texas executive women just to name a few. And while she's clearly an experienced expert in many, many things, I am particularly excited to have her on the show today, because of her work and her perspective around something that sits really at the center of everything we talked about in love as a business strategy, which is self awareness. So I am very excited to dive into that. And I'm honored to have Joni Goodman with me here today. Welcome to the show. Joni,

Joni Goodman  
thank you so much, Jeff, I'm excited to be here.

Jeff Ma  
And you know, all these things you've been doing over the last 20 plus years, specifically just in this field, you know, what is something that keeps you going? What is like your ability to stay in this space and work clearly very hard? For others? And for helping others? What is driving that for you? I'm curious.

Joni Goodman  
Yeah, well, there's a lot that's behind it. But the one main thing is being able to see others fully tap into their potential and know that I played a small or big role in that, and helping them to discover who they are to, you know, break through to a better you. And while I'm helping them do that, that is, in turn, also continuing to help me become more self aware as well. So it's a win win.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. And, you know, I've been looking forward to the conversation, because, you know, I haven't yet dove deep on this show. After all this time, I haven't dove deep into something that I actually am surprised I haven't because it's such a integral central theme in everything that that I believe in and what we believe in, which is self awareness. And so I'm excited. So I want to dive right in. And it's kind of a weird question, but maybe you could define self awareness. It from your perspective for us to start.

Joni Goodman  
Yeah. So, you know, it's something that I myself was not very self aware. In the beginning. And you know, a lot of the research and statistics show that most people by and large are not I'm not self aware, and perhaps it's for the reason that we're talking about now is because people don't understand what it means. So what is it all about? So it is really getting to know yourself from the inside out, and how that impacts you as an individual, and then how that externally impacts your world, personally and professionally. So what are your strengths? What are your gifts? What are your passions? What are your pitfalls? What are your struggles, you know, what are the battles that you have, that you are working to overcome. So being aware of all of those things, and how they impact everything in your life, how you communicate, your actions, your thoughts, your stories, all the things.

Jeff Ma  
And I know that, you know, at least in my experience, that it feels like the higher up with the people that I talked to and work with the higher up you move in a ladder, or in a company or in just seniority. It feels like self awareness becomes harder and rarer to achieve is that what you're seeing too? And if so, why? Absolutely.

Joni Goodman  
One of my coined phrases is that the higher up the ladder you climb, or the food chain you go, the less emotionally intelligent you become. And that is, it's certainly a fact. But it doesn't, it's a fact that can be changed and transformed. Because everybody, I don't care what level you're at what title you have, everyone can do this inner work. And I think what causes that is people feel like, especially the higher and the ladder, they climb, that they have to go things alone, they have to go it alone. And so we can't, we can't become fully self aware by we're not meant to be on this journey alone. So doing this in a way where you're supported by other people. And so that requires a lot of things to do that. First of all, you have to trust yourself. And you have to be able to trust other people, or at least one other person, whether that be a coach, a mentor, a colleague, to be able to do this. And again, that spans the gamut of titles, roles, higher up the food chain, you go to, you know, individual contributors.

Jeff Ma  
That makes that makes sense. And it makes me want to kind of move almost, again, I think self awareness is a really big broad thing, there's so much to be self aware about. And also, the way we even view it as a concept. I know that like there's one level of just understanding ourselves better. It's a completely introspective exercise at times. But for me, I'm most interested in self awareness of our behaviors. Like I feel like, you know, to me, this is the crux of so much of the good and the bad that come in company cultures and in teams that are efficient or effective. You see leaders with varying levels of self awareness, specifically around how they think they're being being perceived by their team or others, versus how those people actually feel about them. Can you speak a little bit to that specific specifically self awareness around our behaviors? And like what you see in that, that arena? 

Joni Goodman  
Yeah absolutely. So one thing that wasn't mentioned in my bio is I'm actually a biochemist by trade. And so as I've parlayed into leadership, development, and leading women's programs, and training and facilitation and coaching, I have become what I call or deem as a quote unquote, assessment junkie. So there are tons of assessments that are out there that are anything from personality, to behavioral to emotional intelligence, and I'm certified on several of them, because I firmly believe that anything that is going to help anyone to be even remotely a little bit more self aware than they were is going to impact them, especially around their behaviors and their communication. So I use several instruments in my practice, that can help people to glean and gain some insight into what are their behaviors, and to your point, how are they perceived? And, you know, how do they think that they are? And so there are several really good assessments that are out there. And the key thing here again, is to be supported when you're doing that. So it's one thing to do the assessment and to get the results, but it's another thing to understand it and have someone to help talk you off the ledge sometimes, especially when you read something in there, and you're like, I don't agree with that, I'm not that. And then you, you start to speak to folks in your life that you're close to that are in your inner circle, that are going to be the people who tell you, not what you want to hear about what you need to hear in a loving way. And they say, Yeah, you do kind of do that. And you know, then you're like, oh, no, how many people have I, you know, negatively impacted by that. And, you know, we start to beat ourselves up. So having a coach to support you, in that is extremely helpful. And you have to process through all of those feelings. It's it's normal to when you become aware of something, and sometimes even positive things are hard for us, as well. So it's important to process through all of that.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, I get the, you know, I get the sense that a lot of people will associate kind of these realizations about their self like about what other people see in them, is that there's this feeling that conflates kind of intention, and impact. Where you hear these things you're like, that was not my intention. Like when I when I speak that way, I'm not trying to do this. And there's this frustration that comes with it. And there's sometimes I guess, a reaction, where it can be demoralizing, to say the least. But also it can create feelings of like injustice and feelings of kind of like, almost antagonistic feelings where you're frustrated with others, like, how do you how do you keep people centered on themselves in that equation? Because we can't, can't control others, we can only control ourselves. So what's the dot? What's the narrative there?

Joni Goodman  
Yeah, so I think it not to overuse the word here. But it's being aware of what is happening in a lot more than just the circumstance of something we read, or something we observed. Or something that someone told us, it is being aware of what physiologically is happening in your body that is telling you, hey, this, this doesn't feel good, or when you're especially having a visceral response to something that is an indicator that it's likely a pattern that's been with you for a long time that you may have not been aware of, and you're just becoming aware of that. So understanding, you know, what's physiologically happening to you, when you get triggered? What are your thoughts? We you know, what stories are rattling around between your ears? And what are your actions as a result of that? Are you someone that you know, retreats? And if somebody has given you some feedback, or made you aware of something that doesn't sit well with you, and you start giving them the cold shoulder? What What are your actions that happen there? So it's really being in tune to what that emotional responses. And in the dare to lead work we talk about, we are feeling beings that sometimes think before we do, we're always expected to do something in all aspects of our life personally and professionally. And sometimes we allow ourselves the time and intentionality to think about what we're doing. And other times we're in high pressure, high stakes kind of things. And so we don't give ourselves a lot of time to think about it. But whether we are doing thinking or thinking doing, we're always feeling and that's the part that we're usually lacking some awareness in. And so there are some indicators that can help us with that. And it's certainly something that we don't talk about, especially at work.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, what what kind of indicators? Do you mean in that?

Joni Goodman  
So like those physiological signs that I was talking about, you know, what happens is your does your heart start racing? Do you get sweaty? Do you get flushed? And becoming aware of that? And what is that telling you? Because sometimes that can also mean hey, I'm really excited, I'm passionate about something and I can use that energy for good. But other times, we don't understand what's happening, we don't realize that it's happening. And that's when we move into those emotionally hijacked responses of that fight, flight or freeze type of action. And so being aware of what physiologically is happening, and then again, focusing on our thoughts, so what are you what are you telling yourself, when those things are happening? You know, what's rattling around between your ears, and then you know, what are your actions and one way to really get in tune with that is through journaling. And I know that's like the New Age. The modern diary, right is journaling and that is something that has really helped me personally, so much so that I have developed some journals, and I have 14 days of journal prompts that you can sign up for and get to help you go on that introspective journey. And then at the end, you receive all 14 of those journal prompts. And you can share those with other people. And you can also share what you discover as you go along with your journaling practice. Because when you get it out of your mind and on paper, that's when you can do something about it, when you become aware of it, and it starts to loosen its grip that it has over you.

Jeff Ma  
I'm looking forward to exploring those prompts or myself very soon, I'll get those from you right after this. Yeah, sure. When it when it comes to leaders, it feels like the more you know, the higher up we work into the organizations, the more of our focus in our our job calls for us to be looking at others and to be looking outside of ourselves to fix problems with other people and other external factors. And I'm wondering if you have any, like tangible, I guess, like initial probing questions or starting points for I guess, people for reaching people who aren't even aware that they aren't aware, if that makes sense. I think that's just I just see a personally, in my perception, I see a plague of, of leaders who kind of hear what we're saying, but can't kind of get over that initial hurdle of actually holding a mirror up and taking what's really a difficult and vulnerable step of kind of taking a hard look at themselves. Is there? Is there an approach, you can share an advice to give to that person who's listening?

Joni Goodman  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, first and foremost, before you're going to do something like that, you yourself need to embark on that awareness journey as well. And know you're not going to be complete, necessarily, but you have to be willing to go there as well, because it puts you in a vulnerable spot to do that. So that you can then understand when you're approaching someone else to go there, how difficult it was for you, you can understand you can empathize with where they're at. So you can give them some grace as they're going through that process as well. But I think the important thing is to make sure that when you're going to open up a dialogue about that, that the environment is safe and sacred and that there is trust there, before you open up a dialog like that. And to let people know that there's not going to be any retribution, you know, this is not something that's going to negatively impact them on their performance reviews, or, you know, their performance discussions or promotions, that this is truly to help them to be better. Because when we as individuals get better, we as a group, as a department as a project team, we all get better and excel together. But we have to go on that individual introspective journey. And so I think it's that safety and security, that really helped people to be able to open up and something that you read in my bio that I pride myself on is being able to create that safe and sacred space. And so it's starting out and letting people know that all voices are important, and that all voices are going to be honored and heard. So to express all of their information as as individuals and then collectively as a group, and to give them permission to be brilliant and imperfect. So it's that fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. You know, if we're only thinking about being imperfect, then we're in a fixed mindset, you know, we go into judgment and of ourselves and other people. And if we give ourselves permission to be brilliant, then that's an indication of we're we're on a growth trajectory. But that growth is not necessarily always a linear journey. It's some times a twisty and windy road, and it has peaks and valleys. So we are going to be really good and excel at what we do at times. And we're going to make mistakes because we're humans, we're human beings first, before we're human doings.

Jeff Ma  
You've used the word I use the word earlier, introspection, which I love, and I would love for you to kind of, I guess, help clearly define in your terms, what introspection really is and like, what it looks like for those who might confuse it with, you know, other forms of like reflection, other things like that.

Joni Goodman  
It's the ability to be able to go within yourself Have, and to be open and curious with what you discover. They're so not passing judgment of patterns that you discover or not, you know, overinflating yourself of, I'm amazing. And I'm more amazing than you. And so you start to make other people feel small. So it's really being able to go within and stay open and curious with what you discover, and allow yourself to be supported as you're doing that. So not having shame around things that you share, and not moving into a space of, you know, comparing yourself to other people, or even judging yourself for after you share something with someone.

Jeff Ma  
There's a lot, there's a lot that there's a lot to think about in this space, there's a lot to work on, do you consider this entire process? Like difficult? Or like, is this? Is this a hard thing to do? Is it something that's that should that should come naturally? Or how I you know, I don't even know how to frame this like scale of one to 10. How difficult is all this? How, what can we expect in terms of going on this journey in terms of challenge?

Joni Goodman  
Well, one of the phrases that I use is discomfort leads to growth. And I don't think that anybody ever grows exponentially from their comfort zone, it's usually at least one step out of your comfort zone. So it really depends on where you're at, in your journey. Sometimes it may be a one out of a 10, it might be a 15. And like this is really super challenging, like, Oh, my goodness, I've discovered that, you know, I have this behavior that makes people feel small. And that's because I'm always trying to make myself feel better. And that was not my intention, I just need to feel better. But as a result of that I've made other people feel small. And so when I discover that, you know, the one of that's out of 10, to overcome that, because it's been with me so long, and I'm just now becoming aware of it is a 15. And other times, it may be a one as far as something that we're chipping away at. But it will be uncomfortable at times. And when you're in the thick of it, that's when the discomfort is the highest. But when you get to the other side, and there is always another side, you can look back and reflect on how far you've came. And that is the journaling that I mentioned, I personally have utilized that tool. And I used to do it on a regular basis. And then sometimes I'll take a pause. And usually when I pick it back up, it starts with me going back and reflecting on where I've been. And sometimes that's a celebration and other times it's like, oh, no, I'm still doing that. But again, it's creating that awareness for us. But now when I do that, versus when I started several years ago, I am in more of a space of being open and curious when I discover that I'm still doing something that's detrimental to me or makes things harder than they should be. And I am more open and curious as to what are the lessons that are there for me to learn from this so that I can continue to grow?

Jeff Ma  
Would you be open to sharing one of your personal self awareness realizations or lessons with us for yourself? Sure.

Joni Goodman  
So I would say for me, the hardest thing that I have had to overcome on my own personal journey is anxiety. So a lot of worry. And that was something that I struggled with as a child and I say as a child, because the symptoms were most prevalent there. And as I got through elementary school, the symptoms magically went away, and they didn't go away at all, I just figured out how to push them down. And the way to which I did that was by solving everyone else's problems, and magically was a deflection for me to not focus on my own. until I reached a point in my adult life where my life was falling apart. I was getting passed over for promotions at work, my intimate relationships were failing. My friendships weren't as I desired them to be my relationship with my family wasn't there. And long before Taylor Swift had the song antihero, I was saying it's me. Hi, I'm the problem. It's me, I need to do something about this because I'm the common thread in all of this. And that's when I began my journey in working with a therapist on a regular basis. I had mentors all along the way, but started formally working with a coach as well. And so that has been something that has has been an ongoing journey. And there are times points in time where I'm looking back and I'm celebrating. And there are other times I'm looking back and saying, still got a lesson to learn, they're still trying to get it still trying to grapple with it. And you know, circumstantially just what we've gone through in the past few years with the pandemic, and you know, the world to which we live in, has changed dramatically, and all aspects. And so, you know, the anxiety was in check, and then it started to rear its head again. But I had a lot of tools that I didn't have when I initially started on this journey, to reach to, to reach for and to work with, and individuals to connect to and to be supported.

Jeff Ma  
That's awesome. I appreciate you sharing that. Thank you. Of course, I think the last piece I wanted to connect all together. And there's no wrong answer to this. But I wanted to hear from you. When, when you think of love, where does that fit into your equation, where does love show itself the most in all the things that you work with, believe in and kind of, are an expert in? Well,

Joni Goodman  
I think just like our heart is in the center of our bodies, love is at the center of everything, and especially in the discussion that we've been talking about, in really becoming self aware. So you have to love yourself first. And that's all aspects, even the perceived flaws. And all you have to love yourself first, before anyone else can you before you can, before anyone else can. And before you can truly connect with anyone else to be able to do that. So you have to love yourself or so to me, love is at the center of all of it.

Jeff Ma  
There you have it. That is very, very important. I 100% agree. And I hope, I hope that people are hearing what you're sharing today and taking that really hard, I think personally hard first step of first breaking through the kind of assumptions that we have it figured out or that this isn't for me, because what I'm hearing from you is that you've been practicing this for so long, and you're still on this journey. So it's a journey, not a destination. Exactly. Absolutely. So, Joni, I really appreciate you taking the time today to share all of this share, in depth all of what self awareness means to you. Because I think I think it's something that people need to hear and, and not just here. But here's seven different types of seven different ways from different people so that maybe one of them will land in a space where they will finally be able to start that journey or if you're already on the journey as a reminder, that is not over. So I really appreciate you and everything you shared today.

Joni Goodman  
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Jeff Ma  
Is there anything that the listeners can look out for from you anything upcoming, anything that you'd like them to, you know, know about? That's that's that's, that's kind of pertaining to all of this?

Joni Goodman  
Yes, absolutely. I'm glad that you asked. So one of the new things that I have launched this year is programs specifically designed for women. And that is because as I reflected on my journey, I've benefited the most from those types of programs. So just this week, I released the experience 2324 virtual workshop, which is a two part workshop that's happening on December 12 and January 9, and the reflections 23. Part of that is to really be able to reflect on 2023 and get inspired and cast a vision create a vision board for 2024. And in January actions 24 is all about releasing that vision out into the world and then putting together an action plan to help support you on that journey. And this workshop as well as a few other ones that I've done earlier this year. Is the precursor to the encounter you luxury women's experience that is happening February 9 through the 11 here in Houston at the Houstonian Hotel. So those are some events that I have upcoming yet this year and the start of 2024 I can't believe or mid November. It's

Jeff Ma  
crazy. Absolutely. And those events are specifically geared for towards like prophetic women professionals, correct? Yes. Absolutely. Awesome. So that's really awesome work you're doing I hope people get a chance to check that out. And on our end, we hope you're checking out love as a business strategy and continue to check out this podcast. Hope you enjoyed a conversation with Joni today and if you did, please leave a comment or review somewhere share with a friend And we really appreciate spreading the word. Because this is all a labor of love at the end of the day, and hoping that people get some perspective and some self awareness out of the conversation. So with that, we'll be signing off. We'll be seeing everybody next week. Thank you so much.