Jeff Ma
Today's episode is a fantastic conversation with Denise Cooper. She specializes in executive coaching and leadership training. With over 25 years of experience in the world of business, she shares some very relatable stories with learnings that you can definitely take away and apply. We discussed the realities of trust in the workplace, what it means to be human, how to look at your own values, and the topic of redemption. All of that and more is ahead. So buckle up, and enjoy the show.

Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from and we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. Hello, I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I am joined today by my co host, Chris Pitre. Hey, Chris, how's it going?

Chris Pitre
Doing great.

Jeff Ma
Awesome. And as you may or may not know, we are co authors of the book by the same name love as a business strategy. And each episode here on the podcast, we'd like to dive into a different element of business or strategy, or meet somebody new and test our theory of love against it. today. Our guest is the founder of remarkable leadership lessons. She's an executive coach, a leadership trainer, speaker, she has a podcast. She's an expert in neuro leadership, behavioral and psychological principles. The list goes on and on. And I'm hoping to be able to talk about all of that. Welcome to the show, Denise Cooper, how are you?

Denise Cooper
I am fabulous and getting better. What can I say?

Jeff Ma
Thank you. Denise. We always had to start with an icebreaker icebreaker no matter how awkward it is, we still do it. We just are very stubborn that way. So, but one thing we do do differently than we that's different from how it used to be, is that we make Chris go first. And then you'll get the same question. So it's less it's less difficult for you. Chris, the question the icebreaker today is, well, if you could donate a million dollars to any charity, what cause would you choose?

Chris Pitre
So for me, the cause that I would choose is domestic violence and helping women and victims of domestic violence get on their feet, and have a safe place to return or get, you know, all the needs that they have. Especially if they feel like their oppressor has been sort of controlling everything about their lives. I know that sometimes it's the reason why people stay in those relationships. And so that would be the charity that would give to first and foremost.

Jeff Ma
Thank you, Denise, same question, if you could donate a million dollars to any charity, what cause would you choose?

Denise Cooper
Hmm. I'm not sure I know the name of one. But I would give it all to reforming education. I think we have got to rethink education in this country. So that it's much more equitable, but it also allows parents to actually be involved in the educational process of their children.

Jeff Ma
I love that. I agree. Yeah. 100%. Denise, I want to dive into this. I know I rambled off, one of like some of the many things you're doing. But I want to give you a chance to kind of introduce yourself, if you could just kind of tell us about yourself and what your passions are and why you're here.

Denise Cooper
Oh, passion is easy. I think that the we're at a at a point in time where we really have to rethink what the workplace is, you can be all about profit, or you can be all about passion and people, you can make a lot of money in each way. But I think the idea of us only thinking about profit and people is widgets and assets, etc. This just leading us down the wrong way. Hence why I'm so interested in children because I think ultimately, getting them educated and thinking about things in a different way is how we're going to really see it. Because the rest of us are just set in our ways. And I'm not sure that we're willing to take the hard make the hard choices, to bring equity, inclusion and love into the workplace. So that's what I'm really passionate about. Now, my background, 25 years that I admit to because I just don't look like I'm older than that in HR. And I've done everything from been working for labor unions all the way through to the Chief Human Resources officer. So I've been actually been on both sides. I've been an employee advocate like for real with a labor union, several labor unions, actually. And then now I've been on the other side where I've worked specifically, and how do we change the workplace and how do we dismantle the systemic issues that the way we think about HR human resources is Then, as you know, we talked offline that you know, big push of HR is really, from a paralegal point of view, make that English, that means that they are HR is there to keep managers out of jail, that those orange shoots still don't make it. But what that does is it keeps an imbalance of power. And it keeps people from feeling like they belong, and they have a role in the workplace at all. And so I started this work because I had to take care of my parents and was the time it was tough to find a company that would live with my philosophies. And what I've been doing is really pushing managers and leaders, executives in particular, to change the way they think about the workplace and change the way that they lead. And to lead from a place of if people are truly our most important asset. What does that actually mean, when we have to behave? What are our expectations? How do we have accountability conversations that are very different than, you know, top down command and control Do as I say,

Chris Pitre
yeah, this is really interesting. And I, and I love this sort of how this lived experience of yours turned into a passion turned into a business turned into sort of the ability to touch lives, and executives and humans all over the world, all over the world, and all over the workplace. And so I'm curious to know, like, when it comes to your, your experiences, working with different executives, working with folks that are are saying that they want their employees to be the greatest asset, but could be doing the exact opposite when it comes to decisions, behaviors, etc. What do you find to be the biggest hurdle or the biggest, I don't wanna say pushback, but the biggest obstacle that they have to overcome, when it comes to sort of aligning those those words with their behaviors and decisions,

Denise Cooper
it's a couple of things, Chris, the first thing is, is that they've been taught bad habits. If you read the books, if you kind of go through some of the things, and I've ever booked to that I tried to have a different voice in it. But if you read most of the books, it's really about, you know, set the goal, communicate the goal, set some measurements in place, and then if they don't make the measurements, figure out how to get them out of the office kind of thing. And so it's almost it's built on this robotic, mechanistic philosophy. And that's what they've been taught. Most managers, if they went to school and got an MBA or got to be a started a business, they're just taking old habits that at one time, may or may not we can debate whether it ever worked. But they took what has been taught to them, and they just bring it into the new place. And they don't really rethink it. And so that's the first thing is, is what they just been taught some bad habits. The other piece of it is, is that for the most part, we don't spend a lot of time understanding who we are. And, and the impact of who we are on other individuals. often say intention is invisible, but everyone judges us by our behavior. And then they take our behavior and assign their attention, intention to what they think they that our behaviors, communicating to them. Most of us walk around thinking my good heart shows on my sleeve, and you just, you know, hey, you're a good person. You know, if I made a mistake, forgive me, blah, blah. So that's the second reason. And then the third reason is, we've we're now at a time where we have stripped out so much in organizations, that whole lean and mean philosophy we've been on for the last 20 years, that we do not have room in organizations for growth, learning and making mistakes. And so because we, if you can't have room to risk doing something wrong, then you can't have room to learn. And so that right there takes you into the series of I don't want people who don't know the job, I want people who know the job, or at least that's how we think about it. We went through a whole plug and play, if you've got the skills, you've got the expertise, let's just stick you in there. And what that's done is it's created another tagline, we're learning organization, but from a operational point of view, a systemic point of view. You can't do it if you're if you don't allow people to make mistakes, and you have enough cushioning cushion for people to actually learn.

Chris Pitre
Yep, it reminds me of, we have a peer Jeff and I His name is Nathan, and his daughter's in school. And she comes home she comes up with like, you know, shares all the like the the greatest things that our teacher says and you know, one of the latest was mistakes or evidence of effort. Right? So like, whenever, whenever someone calls out a mistake or whatever it's like, well, it's just evidence of effort. So that became Like a RT mantra at one point, he just said, like made a mistake, but it's an evidence of effort. But it is one of those things where you have to recondition your mind, right? And sometimes going to those little childhood quips does help you sort of recenter Mike Wait, but actually, it is true, right? I would rather have evidence of effort, then paralysis or indecision, right? Are those things where you're not taking any shots? So no, I completely resonate with that learning organization mantra that people are trying to say, but deep down in the organization, probably not the case, especially we look at performance management systems that are erected, when you look at the way that decisions are made on promotions. Chances are, people are not getting promoted, because they they showed failure.

Jeff Ma
Denise, I, I what you're saying super resonates with me. And I think we're seeing in ourselves time and time again, in organizations that we enter with all the right goals and intentions and even written values and mission statements. But you're right. Like, it's it's kind of this ingrained, kind of inescapable environment that has been built over time. And it's just, it's just pervasive into every process and tool and every just it's part of the culture that's just completely taken, you know, hold of what I would say is basically, General, corporate America overall, suffers from this. So what is what is your, from your perspective? kind of the way out? Right? How do we, I believe in our talk offline, you said, you know, you don't see much discussion around dismantling these systems and who's and who owns dismantling the systems? And I really want to hear your perspective on how do we get out of this problem?

Denise Cooper
Well, if so, the way we get out of the problem is, is that we really start figuring out and saying, speaking, truth about who owns the system, as you mentioned, and the people who own the system are actually employees, and the managers put the managers as employees first, they are the ones that have to come up with the agreements, the boundaries, what accountability looks like, between them, because you can't have people making mistakes over and over. And I get that, right. But the reason people generally are making mistakes, if if that's such a thing, is because the we aren't communicating good boundaries of what where you can go, what you can do what's in your power, what's not in your power, and until employees actually begin to say, I have a role here, I belong here. I'm a part I'm a partner and creating the success of this organization, it's tough to break that kind of hierarchical command and control. Now, there's a difference between the role you play. So you might have a role as a manager that says that you manage these resources, you have to come up with these business outcomes, you have to manage money, time people, product services, those kinds of things. And that that role gives you decision making power. So you make decisions around those kinds of things. Being being responsible, because of the role you have, just means that from a hierarchy of code, thinking of how decisions come out, you have responsibility for making those decisions. But the co creation of how that shows up in your organization is just that employees implement that. So you got to get them involved, you got to get them so that they think you got to tell them, hey, for your role, this is what you do. Go for it, that kind of thing. And so let me let me kind of take it out of the world of theory, if you don't mind. And put it like in a real life thing. So one of the things that one of the clients I had a few years ago, he came into an organization and he was project manager, he was over the whole company's project management office, he was looking to hire some people hired the HR came to him and said, Hey, you know, we've got some great candidates from the outside, but we really want to give somebody on the inside a chance, but they failed to tell him was that this young lady was not considered a team player, and that she wasn't really skilled for the role that she was in. So he finds this out a couple months as they've gone into it, when the meetings are going such that she's supposed to help people make the change. How people figure out you know, what are the deliverables? When are they going to be done? Who does what, etc. And people would get in the meeting? And they would say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. The deadlines would come by, guess what? nobody's doing it. So now this this manager, they He, he's stuck between a rock and a hard spot. Does he write her up? Because she's not performing? Or does he step back and say that my my belief is, is that we need to tell her what's going right in and what she needs to do to get back on a path of success. And so our coaching together was really about how do you have this conversation with her, because she was angry, and she had every right to be angry. She's been with us, because she had been with this company seven years, no one told her that she was failing. So the new guy now is stuck with telling her she's failing. Well, she was angry, she wasn't in this game, she felt betrayed the whole time. And he had to work through bring his humanity to work. To help her understand that feedback is not negative. The fact that you've been failing doesn't mean that you're going to continue failing in a future. But in addition, the other thing we talked about is, is that you've got to create an environment, which she can have redemption. So he went around, and he spoke to everyone on the team, the managers above those people on the team and said, Look, it's not okay that your people lie, they get in these meetings, they say they're gonna do stuff, then they blow her off, that's not okay. And you have to hold them accountable for their word, got agreement with them, then helped her coached her on how to set the expectations, how to make the project plan work for them, and also put some measurements, because change happens. And if one of the things I say is, if you're not getting people screaming about to change, they're not engaged in a change, because we don't like change. And so she had to learn that just because people were complaining about to change wasn't a bad thing. It was actually a symbol that they are engaging in the change, their frustration about it was a way for her an opportunity for her to uplevel her skills and to make the process work better for them. I'm happy to say, obviously, over the eight months, nine months that they were there, the two of them got to be friends, she learned to uplevel her skills, and she changed he helped her change the perception, her reputation, her brand, whatever you want to call it in the organization from someone who was just mean and forceful and not engaged and not skilled properly, to somebody who was really good at what she did. Does that help explain kind of both the theory and how it works in action?

Chris Pitre
Yes, no, that was very helpful. I always loved the practical, I think it does give people a sense of like, how does it like actually work out? I think one of the things that sort of the believers and advocates of this space often get is that we speak conceptually and theoretically more than we speak practically. So no, it always helps. And I think that you use the word that I really want to sort of dig deeper into, which is creating an environment of redemption. Because our word is forgiveness, right? Or, you know, unforgiveness if it's not there. And I think that many organizations don't use those words often enough. And that's where reputations form and they can't change. That's where the belief that people don't change sort of can be rooted in is when there's not that environment of redemption. So I love that word. And I'm curious now, when it comes to redemption, and creating environments of redemption, what have you learned or what have you come across in your various clients situations, or even your own personal life? away from that one example that you just shared?

Denise Cooper
Well, I choose chose redemption, because you're right, most of the time we talk about forgiveness. But people have a kind of an interesting relationship with forgiveness. It's really I said, I saw I'm sorry. And then you kind of go back to doing whatever you were doing. But I said, Oh, sorry. Yeah, what redemption means most motion gives you action to change what you have done in the past. And so another example is, recently I was talking to a young lady, African American woman who had been over the dei program for the company, and another person who was of Asian descent. And her got into a big argument. And it was over data, the interpretation of the data. Well, her style is not an empathetic communicating style, fat, fat, fat, fat, the style of communication of the other young lady, the Asian young lady was more emotional and needed to hear the emotional that that I hear you I understand you, it's going well, et cetera. The two of them weren't were at odds because their communication style wasn't there. Long story short, she the my client who was the black female decided to get Off the committee, everyone was looking and talking about, you know what happened, you know, the back channeling that often goes with who said she said they said who won who did win etc, etc. HR got involved in it. And suddenly they wanted to make it a a investigation on discrimination and putting down people, etc etc. And so what I coached her to do was, is to simply say you need to decide whether this is something you want to file a charge against, or not. Because they had taken her off the committee without asking her without doing a full investigation about it, none of those things. And if they and I, as I told her, if you could just simply talk to this young lady, and you guys work it out from a trust point of view, it would have worked, but we had to get past HR, because they wanted to follow a charge, they wanted to make it a big, hairy deal. And the point that I was helping her understand is first you have to say that just because you disagreed with someone don't take it personal. And that you have to communicate to the other young lady that because we don't agree on this point. Doesn't mean that we're at odds with each other. And so what she went and did was have a cup of coffee with the young lady, they Yes, it was not an easy conversation, I'm making a sound a lot easier than when you're in it and you're sweating about it. And you're feeling like if I say something wrong, or this person isn't going to believe me, or they're not going to hear me and your stomach is knotted up. And you're just kind of like, Oh, I'm gonna say the wrong words. I mean, so both of them were sitting there in this piece, but the process of going through, can we find a place where we can trust each other first, that I'm not here to do you harm. I'm here to figure out a way that we can work together and have that conversation led to the fact that the two of them could forgive each other for having a communication style that was different, that they may have said things that the other interpreted differently, because we all come to the place with our own intentions, right? intentions invisible, behavior is what we judge people on. And from that place, they were able to find a way in which they could work together, pushing HR out of the side, you all get out of this, let us figure out how to make this work because we have to learn how to communicate with each other, to listen to each other. And to ask questions is sometimes quite insensitive?

Chris Pitre
Yes. Yep. No. And I think you know, that scenario, typically what happens is what happens in the early stages of some company or organization starting the work of DEI, right, because you have people who bring their core beliefs, and sort of their communication styles and their sort of mindsets and perspectives and lived experiences to the table. And now we're starting in these very vulnerable, often uncomfortable, you know, conversations or trying to sort of figure out some real difficult solutions, many of which will impact systems. And there are going to be those types of conflicts and sometimes deeper, sometimes bigger sometimes, you know, between dynamics of power, sometimes it's not always sort of just about race or those types of topics. So I think that that scenario is something that many organizations who are coming into DEI should understand as a part of the process. And that's typically where some companies disengage, or stop and say, oh, oh, it's so uncomfortable, we're not going to do that. I can't do that, like, this is why we shouldn't start at this, we were fine before. Our culture was great, you know, everything was hidden. And if people had issues that take that home, we don't like, why are we doing this? We're breaking something that was working right, you start getting into that situation. But I'm glad that those two women were able to work that out. And also hopefully show the committee and others in that organization. How do you work past differences of opinion ideological differences, communication differences, style differences, etc. And so that was that's a really cool sort of example point

Denise Cooper
because too often and then even in this situation, and and others, the first thing we do is look for the reasons why the two people have differences. It's very easy to say it's their background, it's this and we're trying to you know, figure this out versus the first thing we ought to think about is both of us are human. No one and I don't care even if you're a sociopath or a narcissist. Nobody wakes up in the morning to say, I'm gonna be a butthead, and I'm gonna be I'm gonna fail just doesn't. What happens is, is the way we choose to behave and implement causes these breakages in the relationship and it starts with us not understanding how to communicate with each other from a place of trust. If I if I say that you truly are a human being, and that being a human being and living humanity is also about, we're not going to be perfect, we can be excellent, but we cannot be perfect. It by nature says that we're not going to do it all well. But if I don't give you space to be able to say, hey, Denise, she didn't go over well, I heard what you said, but it didn't go over well. And I have to be able to take a deep breath. And, and not know and know that you're giving me feedback. You're not judging me. You're just giving me feedback. I need to lean in a little bit and say, What didn't go well? Yeah. So that we can actually talk about your perception, because I can't read your mind. And I tell my clients, I tell everybody tell me all your listeners, stop acting like we can read each other's mind. Because we can't, the only way you're gonna know what a person's thinking is you have to breathe and ask the question, tell me what you meant. Tell me your perspective. I invite you to give me feedback.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, I love the example you just use earlier with these two women. And what I'm really latching on to is that just that mental, mental picture of, of these two women sitting at a coffee table, across table from each other. Just that moment, I think that's something that we love as a business strategy and what we talk about all the time, that's a critical moment right there like that, that uncomfortability you're talking about, is the key to unlocking so much, and that that that's like the fork in the road right there. I think everyone can relate to that. I think when you picture, maybe we haven't sat at a coffee table. But we've been in that, that performance review or that one on one or just that moment, even in a group setting where there's this critical kind of awkwardness, this uncomfortableness and I think I've been on both sides of that, that equation where if you can take the fork in the road to the to the one way that you say, Hey, this is how you made me feel. But I want to know, what you're coming from and, you know, trying to like, open that up. What what's on the other side of that is, is you know, so much possibility, but I've also been in those conversations where that same uncomfortable uncomfortability kind of leads us to immediately put our guards up kind of morph into something we're not in the moment and say, Oh, no, I'm fine. I'm good. Oh, that was nothing. Oh, I was just kidding. Oh, you're kidding. Okay, cool. And you leave kind of feeling good about yourself, but kind of like, you know, it sweeping under the rug. And I think, I think too often, these moments happen in our lives, whether we like we don't even realize it as they're happening, because it was just another meeting or it's just another conversation. And we just kind of dealt with it the way that made sense like that, just that we solved the problem. And I don't think people often enough, realize that you're just missing these critical moments over and over to actually develop a relationship or move towards something really great. Because on the other side of being able to be honest, and truthful and open and really uncomfortable with each other is that ability to like the next time something happens, the next time something comes up, you skip all the other steps and you go you the two of you or the group of you go straight to the solution goes straight to Oh, I know how this makes you feel. So we're gonna we're gonna go right to where we need to go. And and I love that I cling on to that moment, because I love that tangible example, you gave me these two, two women, I'm picturing them in that table. And I'm also just cringing and kind of just feeling it. But I hope the audience also like looks right now within yourself and finds that moment, we've all had one or more of those, or maybe right now there's somebody who needs to have one of those moments with you. Because to me, that's just the launching pad for, for real change out of those really uncomfortable, hard to be honest moments.

Denise Cooper
And here's what I was, you know, so practical stuff. We've all been in those situations, and we live in organizations that aren't perfect. Maybe they're not even into the point where they believe that love is a business strategy right? for humanity. And you know, I would love to change DEI to HEI humanity, equity and inclusion. Because oftentimes the systems we set up pitting one group against another group and give the illusion that somebody is getting something that another person is one of the things I would ask your audience and anybody who's kind of sitting there sweating going, man, I know that or I'm facing this. Step back and ask What are your values? If we say integrity is one of our values, then you have to look at what does integrity mean? You may not be skilled enough to speak up at that moment. But can you loop back around after you've thought about, I need to have a conversation around this example. Had a training program, the HR person that set the training program up for six weeks, one of the leaders decided, you know, well, I only had it for three, I'm not doing it anymore. Sending in an email via the secretary. The HR person was really like, I couldn't see you. Oh, you know, and I just like I said, You know, I think you're something else is going on here. What do you mean? I said, I think you're angry because she handled you. What do you mean, handle me? She didn't pick up the phone. This person didn't pick up the phone, call you and say, Hey, I had a misunderstanding. I didn't know what's this. I'm really busy. You guys could have talked it out? What she did was she had the secretary, send you an email. So that now what do you do? You can't go back to the Secretary and say, Hey, no, this is wrong, because the Secretary is just the messenger. And how often do we kill the messenger, right? And I sat there, and I said, what you need to do is pick up the phone and call her and say, we need to talk this out, not because you didn't, you had a misunderstanding of how long the program was. But because we're colleagues, and because this was going to impact me, you didn't have the courtesy to pick up the phone and just tell me this, those are the misses, those are the moments. So when we talk about integrity Do as I say, you know, if I give you my word, I'm going to do it. If if I'm going to treat you as a human being, if I'm going to respect you, then respect means that you have the courtesy to speak to someone, you have the courtesy to share your point grand, I tell everybody, you may not know what to say or how to say it in a way that the person may say it, it may be able to, to understand it and accept it as the forgiveness of one. Chris, I've really got some I have to tell you, I don't think I can say it in the right way. But I want you to hear my heart about it. And this is really important. And I'm willing to sit here and we need to have a conversation about this. Because what you said was insensitive, or how you treated me was disrespectful, or I felt disrespected out of that. And I want you to understand what you did, because I don't think you did it on purpose.

Chris Pitre
I think that is one of the most effective ways to have that conversation. And many times the people who have feedback to give typically don't want to have a conversation or in some cases don't want have answers. They typically sometimes want to have a conversation or feel like a conversation is indicative of not accepting what I am telling you. Because if you come back, I like how give me more like like, because when you're hearing news for the first time that is truly sort of different than what you have been perceiving you've been doing. You might be curious about it. You might be curious, like you want to dig into it. When I first like I can't leave a comment. I can't believe they're questioning what I said like, and it turns into a situation where you might be painted as somebody who doesn't receive feedback. Well, even though you are receiving it, well, you're just curious about like, one, the actual word like was it one word? Was it This was it away, I said how like, right, sometimes you want to dig into it. And that's always been something that I approach conversations with, try to approach conversations with, especially if I'm the one giving them feedback is like, No, we can sit down and talk as long as you need to, like, let's work through it, like I'm not gonna, you know, drop it off and run, like, throw the bomb and leave. But sometimes it's really difficult when you are when you know, you're coming into an uncomfortable conversation, to be willing to have a conversation versus a one sided, like, I'm just gonna tell you how I felt and leave and let you work through it by yourself. Yeah.

Denise Cooper
And here's why values for a company are so important, right? Our ground rules or boundaries, or whatever your terminology is about it here at this company, we know that we're going to be human, and that from time to time, we may say things or do things that because we don't read minds, and we're all focused on our own. And ultimately, you know, I'm right, because I'm addicted to being right and therefore I am right. And that's kind of the perspective all of us come from. But the ground rules here say that if if feedback is negative feedback is a good thing. And that you need to stay engaged in it. Now you have you have permission to you know, if I picked you at a wrong time, then we got to circle back on it but it's not okay. Not to get to the point where we can be okay with each other because we have To find a way in which we can have a working relationship and co create what's going on. And when we harbor ill feelings. When we harbor things about people, when we start assigning that this person is intentionally inflicting pain on other individuals, then what we've done is we have taken that person, push them out of the organization, and not embrace them, and they are no longer included. Because I may not know why you're at a distance from me, but I definitely will feel when you are pushing me off to the side, when people are talking about me when I'm being excluded. I can feel that every day all day. And that's the piece that I think is so important about having values, value statements, boundaries, and examples, stories of when you get it right. And stories of when you don't get it right. so that people can see that, oh, wait a minute, this isn't about humanity, this is a skill issue, or having a conversation really boils down to skill.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. And you know, it just it kind of draw. I think it's funny because it we are we all I feel like everybody understands the fact that we're humans, like everyone understands the fact that we make mistakes, we say things we don't mean it all that and somehow in the workplace, it's become this place where we can keep saying, oh, we're human, we make mistakes, oh, yeah, embrace mistakes. And then yet our behaviors kind of indicate that you're not allowed to. And in fact, when things happen in the workplace, when we only get some of the information, one side of the story, or just our perspective, as humans, we fill in all those blanks, we automatically say, Oh, they must have been taken this, they must be thinking this of me, there must be talking about me. And all these kind of thoughts fill our heads. And without that outlet of verifying and validating something that we would do in our personal lives with people we you know, care about love and want to be around. You know, I'm not I'm not going to go to sleep at night. If I think that, you know, my best friend is thinking something about me or says something on Facebook made a post I'm like, is that about me? Is that, like, I need to go ask is that post about me because that's, that's messed up. But at work at work, when someone says something, or make a comment in a meeting, we're somehow okay with just being like, that comment was probably about me, I'm not going to talk to them about it, I'm just going to live my life as if it was about me. And these things just snowball, because that's how then you then you respond, you retaliate, you get passive aggressive, you start talking in certain ways. And it just creeps in these relationships, and then between two people, then between groups, then between entire teams, and then and before you know it, this entire culture is just people smiling at each other. Every single person is thinking something differently of each other. Right? That to me, that blows my mind. Because, like, Who doesn't want to work at a place that's with friends and with people they they get along with in love, really? Who wouldn't want that? You know, we we all want that. And yet, I don't know if we all kind of embrace the work that it takes to get there. Because we would rather shy away from those tough conversations and kind of live in fear sometimes it's not the employees fault, obviously, it's obviously the safety in the group and in the in the culture that's built by leaders. But But ultimately, it blows my mind that more people don't want to tackle things the right way. When we understand like, like I opened with the humanity of it all like we there's nothing then nothing I just said is like mind blowing, anybody would like we all understand common human kind of fallible interaction. And yet we don't kind of give each other that grace or that space in our work lives. And that that's this was constantly boggles my mind. I just, yeah,

Denise Cooper
well, this because we don't get permission in those places. You know, we think the old way of thinking about work is as you just come to work, do what you're told and keep your mouth shut and keep getting collect your paycheck. When and that's that is how we think about it. Well, businesses change, you know, businesses don't last 50 years. Not you know, they change they get bought, you know, if you start doing well, your company's gonna get bought all kinds of things happen. And, and the fact that we expect people to be friends with each other's to care about each other. You know, that let's settle saying that, you know, people say don't bring your feelings into the workplace. How many of us still carry that we Yeah, I know, you're human, but I can't bring my friendship. I can't bring my admiration for you as a human being as a person as somebody I like. And I want to get to know i don't i don't i can't bring that emotion into the workplace. Because then you know, I'm you know, not, not okay. You man can't be emotional and say, Hey, you know, we need to talk. I'm angry. Oh, you can't be that women can't bring it Oh, you're too emotional. You're not tough enough to be a leader. Oh, and so we've got all of this, this noise that sits there, but it really talks about it. Nobody says that's off limits that this is what's on, you know, this is what we're about. Yeah, make that statement, you don't mind saying that. We're about making money. Make a statement. about creating a place where people can excel.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, like when did when did we decide that we could pick and choose elements of humanity to accept and not accept in an environment? It's almost like, I mean, I'm just noticing that real time right now it's like, we, it's very common to keep saying things like, oh, we're just human. We all make mistakes, you know. And yet, we very literally pick and choose a number of other human traits that would just be taboo, completely taboo to talk about, bring them if I, if I had to set up a meeting, just to tell you how you made me feel people be like, Do not waste business time, do not waste on the clock time to have this one on one about how they made you feel. It's like Why not? We just said, we're human. And this matters. This matters to me. It shouldn't matter to the company, right?

Denise Cooper
But you put structure in it. So we have to teach people how to do this. And it's the idea of backup. You know, some companies are saying you have to be resilient, you have to know if you listen to but Brene Brown, it's all about the resilience. When I make a mistake, how do I come back? Or redemption is the same thing. And so is it okay, that a person can make a mistake? Whether it's a business mistake or mistake with a customer, they didn't run the process, right? Or I hurt your feelings? Or I said something that was insensitive? And I don't I don't think most people are trying to be offensive that they are, they can be very insensitive. So I choose that word carefully. But when do I get to come back and say, Hey, you know that that wasn't right. And then I actually can be open to feedback? Where do we set those ground rules? Where do we have that as a walking role model of what that looks like from the CEO, or the executive director and nonprofits all the way down of when I am wrong, when I've changed my mind, I actually come out and say, You know what, I changed my mind, I was given some information, I've thought about it again, let's go and you can start it on the business side. And then roll it into how we treat each other. So get comfortable with the place that you can do it, which is business, and then moving into the other. I know so many great CEOs, and I've been exposed to great CEOs that they purposely listen to what the rumor mill is, most of us are trying to go. Don't listen to the rumor mill this, you know, gossip is not a good thing. But they purposely listen to that, so that they would understand the perspectives of what's going on in the workplace. Because we still put the OSI sweets, all of those executives on a pedestal and we just can't tell them the truth, right. But they can listen to the gossip. They can listen to what's wrong, and interject and say that's off limits. We are not doing that. We're not sure about this, but we are about this, and I want you to have the truth. And I want you to understand exactly exactly directionally where we're going. So it is a practice that starts with Are you interested in engaging and making sure that people have the answers that they need, that they understand how we're going to treat each other and that feedback is really important on all scales, and that you model that that's what changes the workplace.

Jeff Ma
I'm curious what advice you give to to the modern leader because I think I feel like they're facing I think leaders today are facing a very new and unique challenge, I guess, as we talk about these things, as these are realities that we had to face. And it's like, it comes to those points where you know, you can be a leader that that here's all this, you're like, great. I want to be empathetic, I want to be you know, I want to build personal relationships, I want to be all those things very human with my team. And then you're like counterbalanced by this pressure. That has to be kind of harsh on them. Like you just there's no way around it like they're not performing. They are misbehaving. They are letting people down there like all these things that are just the reality of a business at the end of the day, outcomes and goals being missed. How do you coach this leader who you know, is is on kind of stuck between these worlds where they have to be the disciplinarian, but also try to build this trust and things like that.

Denise Cooper
Trust. So trust comes in many levels, right? We trust each other all the time, when it comes to someone is not living up to the performance. So that's specific piece of it. If you've told the person along the way, if you were clear on what the goals were, you help them navigate the reality, which is one of the reasons why the obstacles, the options, those kinds of things. And then you ask them a very pointed, one of the questions I tell leaders all the time is ask people, how will I know this got done because I can't I, I'm not going to be chasing you down. And you tell me that, oh, I'll have it to you Tuesday, but I also ping you to make sure we'll talk about it in the next one, and then I failed to do it, then what you're having now is a conversation of you gave me your word, and you didn't live up to your word. As an HR executive, I can tell you people know when they're failing. But they do is they keep a smile on their face, they keep doing the same things harder, faster, more of it. Because they think if I'm not doing it well enough. And they get they dig themselves in the hole more and more and more, even down to I've had people who, you know, I have one guy who when I was a young HR person, say, you know, he was habitually late. So something really simple. We can't have you habitually late when you're working in a chemical factory, we need you to be here, when the shift changes, right? Now, some jobs, you got to be here on time. And he told me, he says, I'm not going to be a slave to a clock. So because he didn't own clock, and he wasn't good enough, you know, I said, Well, you know, I can, I can honor and respect the fact that you don't want to have a watch. And you don't want to have a clock. But you are hired to perform a job, work as a contract for hire, when you break the terms and agreements of the contract. And one of them is you got to be here at eight o'clock in the morning, ready for work, then what you're in, in fact, telling me is you really don't want to work here, this is not the right place for you to work. Now you have a decision. These are the rules, terms and agreements of the contract for hire will pay you this amount, we treat you this way. And you have every right to choose not to live within this. That's an adult conversation versus coming in and saying you have to come to work at eight o'clock in the morning, and we're going to put you on a performance plan if you don't show up. And other than that, because that's forcing that's treating them like they don't have any ownership for their own behavior. So for leaders, if you treat people like they have ownership for their behavior, that you do trust them, and you hired the right person. And if it doesn't work out, tell them and you know, cut it cut the cord quick.

Jeff Ma
Yeah. Oh, can I can I? Can I upgrade my question a little bit. So what about the leader who's kind of crucial, crucial conversation here is less around a very measurable performance issue, but more around a person's, you know, maybe subjective kind of attitude, slash maybe how they're making other people feel issues around that, that sort of realm. Because I think there's this this because culture is now important. violating culture, or causing harm to the culture is also part of your performance. However, assessment of that isn't always a metric, or a KPI that can be said, Hey, we set this bar for you. You didn't make it that this conversation isn't like you made a promise you didn't keep it. Now you're now we have to have this. Sometimes it's in this gray area, where is the leader? It's themselves that makes the assessment whether or not this person so it gets personal, it gets very, that makes sense. Like kind of where I'm going with this. It's like now how do you how does that leader navigate that where you're having to give disciplinary or you know, somewhat, even if it's come up coming from a place of trust and support, it is ultimately us saying, Hey, I think you have a poor attitude or a poor approach or whatever it is. That's less measurable.

Denise Cooper
So example, CEO have a CFO who fundamentally did not believe that people were the greatest asset. His job was to count the money to make sure that the processes work the way they're supposed to be, and then the profitability will show up. Remember, early on, I said you can be focused on profit or you can be focused on purpose. Both will make a lot of money, but they engender very different behaviors. The CFO was very No, we know we're not going to invest in people. No, we're not going to do this. No, you know, we need to cut these lines here because they're not we're not going to spend the money to help these people get skilled up all of those kinds of things. CEO had to make and they went through the look, this is the way we are here. This is our culture. This is how we we don't treat people like you know, We, you know, you got to stop talking about people talking about people in such a way that they only think about the numbers, it got to things like, you know, we're saying we're trying to make sure that our, our workplace mirrors our customer base. And so we need to have diversity in our workplace. And yet he set up a financial system or budgeting system that basically said, they'd have to fire somebody to make the numbers and the timeframe that they were going to do. Again, back to that widget mentality. The CEO had to have a conversation and says, you know, what, I respect the fact that you are very good at what you do, but your values are not aligned with us. And you have a choice. This is how this company and this workplace is going to be, and you can choose to stay and adapt. Or you can, I can help you find someplace that really is more of a match from a values point of view. Those conversations that you're talking about and referencing to Jeff, generally, the reason is, is that we're unclear and unsure of ourselves, what are the values that we're holding? Remember, I said the person, you know, the woman who sent the note saying, I'm not gonna attend it. It wasn't about the note. It was about the impact of her not having enough respect to pick up the phone and say, Hey, there was a misunderstanding, I didn't understand it, can we work it out? That was the unacceptable behavior. That was the entire intent was not necessarily I can say the person who sent the email or had our secretary Send Email she didn't intend to harm. But her going through the way we go through the 15 meetings, we've got, hey, Secretary, send that know to tell us Oh, blah, blah, blah, the insensitive This is what had to be discussed. So if you if you want an environment, where we are open to people being human and open to the fact that occasionally we're going to, you know, not be sensitive, then you have to be open to hear that feedback. And if I find that you're not open to that feedback, not saying you have to always do something with it, but you got to be open to hear it. Because once something is her can't be unheard. And fundamentally, we all want to be liked. We all want to be accepted. We all want to think that we're doing a great job. Words matter. They change your opinion, over time. I've worked with somebody asked me would I take somebody who, you know, really, this was their last ditch effort been coached down? over my years as a coach, what I've learned is, is yes, I'll take that person. The reason they wanted to take me to take the person is they wanted to have a defensible strategy that they had done everything they possibly could do, to turn this person's performance around. The performance wasn't that they weren't hitting the numbers, the performance was is that the person was biting everybody's head off, was coming across as this, Hey, you got to go do this. You got to go do that. They were telling jokes that, you know, not so it wasn't that they were legally, you know, creating a hostile work environment. But it was certainly making people go. Kind of picky. So there was nothing really clear in the performance, right? Yep. So you set it up to say, this is really what we're trying to get to. And you have this these behaviors that aren't, we're going to give you a coach. That's what they said. And the person said, Well, you know, I'll take the coach, but she can't talk to anybody, the board, nobody in this organization. And I said, Let me talk to him. I did. I said, Let me help you understand something. I'm not saying that you lie to me. But I do think that your perception and your perspective of what's going on, you're going to give it to me that you're doing it right. And it's not what you intend to do that just the problem. your intention is to be a good person, the impact of how you behave is the problem. And that's a skill you need to learn. So if you want to stay here, then the skill you have to learn is to understand the impact of your behavior on other individuals and adjust that. You may not I think we sometimes want to find that tin. You know, if you just do these 123 things, it's all gonna go away. This stuff is work. This stuff is about learning. You got to try it. You got to get back on the horse. When you make a mistake. You got to ask forgiveness. You got to change your behavior. redemption is about changing your behavior up leveling your up leveling your behavior so that you're not making the same mistakes over and over and over. Again, that's the piece that we don't want, you know, we want people to be, oh, I just want to tell you one time, and then your fixed doesn't work that way. I

Jeff Ma
love that. I love that. Denise, I wanted to make sure that I also had time to kind of talk about a few things that you have going on. I can you tell us a little bit about your podcast and your book and and really, you know, anything else that you'd like to share for us in terms of, of what you're putting out in the world

Denise Cooper
here. The podcast is called closing the gap with Denise Cooper, he can get it on all the podcasts or where you hear your podcasts or whatnot, the antenna of it is is to get other people to talk about the topic of how do we bring humanity into the workplace, but more importantly, how do we dismantle the kinds of thinking and the systems that we have in place that keep us kind of lock stepped into this? How are you know, if if you know, we're not going to get rid of racism in a day? And so how do you one of my podcast was from a gentleman who for 40 years, he was the one the only and the first. And he had to endure insensitive comments, actual racist comments, systemic racism, the whole thing? How do we continue to succeed and be happy, build a career life? And how did you step up so that he felt he was courageous and protecting himself? And so these are stories from people who are willing to share their journey? along the way? How do you build a career? When you're a single mother? How do you when you get feedback as women that you know, when you're, you know, not tough enough? And you know, you're not? How do you actually listened to that, and then applies development to it. So that's the purpose of it. And the podcast has turned into something really fabulous, because now I'm packaging it and giving it to my clients as lessons learned. And it comes out every Thursday. So it's turned into this really beautiful thing. I'm not looking for a lot of people. But it's turned into these conversations that people can actually get educational material from the book, which is called remarkable leadership lessons, change results, one conversation at a time, it's just that it's a series of stories and conversations. You can read one, you can read many of them, but they're meant to that take one conversation, and you can really dig deep into what was going on? And what can I do differently? And how was that thinking? And how do I matter? And how does my behavior matter? And if I'm in the How do I change it to get more and more and more? Obviously, I do training coaching with executives, around these ideas of how do we create these better workplaces, and people can find me on LinkedIn, they can then is probably the easiest way, just to look for Denise Cooper, LinkedIn. And my website is remarkableleadershiplessons.com, so I'm always open for conversation.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. And a good one at that. So thank you so much, Denise, thank you for this conversation. It's given me a lot to think about. But I also think that those practical examples and your perspective is really helped the audience, I think, further their understanding of what this what a real kind of humane workplace might look like. And I hope we all found something that they can take back and actually go and try and apply around around themselves. So thank you so much for that insight and the time today to nice,

Denise Cooper
thank you guys for the opportunity. Thank you. Absolutely.

Jeff Ma
And to our listeners. As always, we are posting new episodes every Wednesday. I hope you enjoyed this one. If you did, please do leave us a like a feed us some feedback, review and share it with your friends. As always, Please also check out our book love as a business strategy. And with that, I will sign off and see you all next week. Thank you, Chris. Thank you Denise.