Jeff Ma
Hey folks, we have some exciting news for you all. We have just launched a brand new company founded on the tenets of our love as a business strategy philosophy, the same philosophy that you've grown to know and love. This new venture is called Culture Plus. Culture Plus is a culture as a service company that provides training experiences, consulting services, and digital tools to help companies achieve high performing and high reliability cultures and teams. To learn more, visit culture-plus.com. That's culture-plus.com. And now, let's get to the show. On this show, we're usually focused on the typical corporate workplace environment. But when we say our mission is to bring humanity back to the workplace, we really do mean to any and all workplaces. Today's guest is James Kovacevik, and he's an expert in maintenance and reliability in the world of manufacturing. We end up having a really interesting conversation with James as we explore what love and workplace culture looks like from his lens, when we get a chance to explore a domain that we don't often look into and apply our theory of love against. Enjoy the show.

Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm joined today by my co host friend and co author, Frank Danna. Hey, Frank. Hey, Jeff. How's it going? Nice hat. Thank you. He never wears hats. It's weirding me out.

Frank Danna
Very strange. It's got it's got Mickey on it. Okay, let's continue.

Jeff Ma
Frank, every episode. As you know, we dive into one element of business or strategy and we test that theory love against it. Today's guest is James Kovacevik. James is a trainer, Speaker consultant. And he specializes in bringing profitability, productivity, availability and sustainability to manufacturers around the globe. He's also the host of the Rooted in Reliability podcast. He's an expert in the maintenance reliability space. And I'm excited to explore today where love might fit into that world. So James, welcome to the show.

James Kovacevik
Thank you, Jeff, and Frank for having me happy to chat about how love as a business strategy fits into maintenance or liability, because most people will think it fits in but I'll be the first to tell you it's always around people and engaging those people with, you know, full transparency.

Jeff Ma
Well, there you have it, folks. That's the whole show.

Frank Danna
That was a great show.

Jeff Ma
That's all we needed.

Frank Danna
It was really good, fastest episode we've ever done.

Jeff Ma
First, we got icebreakers almost forgot about icebreakers? A simple question, Frank, you're gonna go first, and Jim's gonna get the same question. So you get all you get time to think about it. Frank, what fictional world or place would you like to visit?

Frank Danna
I would love to visit High Rule. So I know it's weird. But I'm also playing a lot of Zelda Zelda Breath of the Wild and kind of going through the Zelda franchise. very nerdy, very nerdy. But I am a huge fan of Breath of the Wild. I've played it a lot with my kids. And I love the different regions and the different climates and the different places and different groups of people that you interact with and engage with. I think that would be a fascinating place to go to. Because it's, it's mystical and mysterious and interesting, and I don't know, that'd be kind of a fun place to go.

Jeff Ma
Isn't it also full of weapon wielding monsters and creatures around every corner? Essentially.

Frank Danna
Adventure is out there. You know what I'm saying? You just got to go for it sometimes. Sometimes you got to fight.

Jeff Ma
Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. James, same question. What fictional world or place would you like to visit?

James Kovacevik
So, I'm going to take a little bit from Frank here, I'm going to go with Mario Kart World. Reason being my two daughters love playing Mario Kart. And we actually did a little go kart race up in Niagara Falls two weeks ago, two weeks ago, and they fell in love with it. So if we could do fictionally and go Rikkyo control bananas on each other and stuff like that on top of it. I think that'd be great.

Jeff Ma
Both of you went very dangerous routes in this question

Frank Danna
was very, very Nintendo centric. You know what I'm saying? So we should go to Super Nintendo World in Japan because they have a Mario Kart in real life there.

Jeff Ma
They do. Yeah. Alright. I didn't know that. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, that was awesome. I'm going to switch gears completely back focused on you, James, because I think the kind of elephant in the room is, hey, maintenance or liability, love as a business strategy. Think you already spoiled the answer right out the gate, there is a connectivity there. But before we get into that, James, tell us tell the audience a little bit more like about what you do, or the world that means reliability and also like your passion in it.

James Kovacevik
Alright, so maintenance, reliability, you know, a lot of organizations, throw around those words, right? We need better reliability, we need to improve maintenance. But what actually goes on there is what you know, a lot of people aren't really sure, you know, you talked to a lot of people, and they still have the vision of the Maytag repairman, sitting around in the shop, wait for something to break, and then you call me and say run out, fix it, then they run away. Unfortunately, that's not the way it really works. And if you operate that way, you're not going to be very reliable, you have to have good maintenance. But that's only one part of being reliable in manufacturing, in organizational processes, that type of thing. So maintenance reliability, to me is maintenance is a way to maintain reliability within a system or process. However, it's only one element. If you want reliability, you have to consider the design of that asset or system or process. Maintenance will only maintain to the inherent level or the design level of that maintenance, or that reliability of that asset. Bad design, no amount of maintenance is going to fix it. So you have to have good design, you have to have a good maintenance program. But then you also need to have the people that are there in place to execute that maintenance. And when we talk about people, it could be skilled trades people, it could be engineers, they need the right skills, knowledge, ability, and more importantly, leadership and support to do what they got to do to maintain that equipment. At that design level. There's lots of pieces that go into it. So we talked a little bit about the design side. You know, you can improve things by having more spare parts, having better PMs. But that's only part of it. There's how well do we perform our work? How well do we verify work? Do we follow SOPs and procedures, those are what the really big levers that allow you to drive and get that reliability piece. Myself, I got started as an electrician on the floor. When I say the floor, I mean the shop floor plan floor, how not to be a maintenance supervisor, that was a big shift for me going from appear to a supervisor. And then within a year of that I became the manager of that department. So pretty big shift in perspectives and relationships during that time. From there, I was able to work with a few large multinationals leading maintenance reliability programs for their manufacturing sites across the globe. So having to work through diverse cultures, that sort of thing working in South America, Africa, Europe, Asia, the Middle East, implementing these types of programs as well. Doing that, I realized there wasn't a podcast out on this stuff. So I started my own podcast Routed in Reliability. We released episode 287 this week, it's a weekly podcast. So almost three years, thank you. And then moved into the training consulting space. And here we are.

Frank Danna
That's amazing. I wanted to ask you a little bit about reliability and high reliability. I know, when I think about high reliability, I often think about health care. And you know, the zero harm approach to and the necessity of having high reliability inside of a healthcare organization. What are some of the tenets of of maintenance, reliability, some of those kind of Cornerstone values that are built into that, that you'd like to communicate to individuals and organizations as you're working with them?

James Kovacevik
So there's a couple of different pieces to it, I'm gonna say there's a process piece, and then there's people piece. Alright, so the process piece, you know, you need to have your basic methods for establishing what maintenance are we actually going to perform. So how do we develop preventative maintenance procedures? Where do we develop predictive maintenance activities? How do we select the right spare parts? There's those types of process pieces. The other side of it is really the cultural piece, I would say. And I say that because if you don't have a good high performing culture, people are not going to follow SOPs, they may not be doing the right things coming from the healthcare space and referencing the high performance there. I'm not sure if you've read the book Checklist Manifesto, by chance?

Frank Danna
I have not I'm shaking my head yes, but I haven't, haven't read it.

James Kovacevik
Okay, so So in there, it actually is written by a doctor talking about how to drive high performance or high levels of reliability in healthcare space. And it comes down to using checklists. But the checklist is only a tool that has to have a good culture built around it. And the same issues they had in healthcare, aviation that the checklist kind of helped overcome. Same problems and maintenance reliability. Highly trained people, right? Yeah, mechanics, electricians, engineers, very highly trained. Do they want to be told how to do their job the same way every single time with SOPs and that? Not necessarily. That was one of the challenges in that book with doctors? "I'm very, very smart. Why do I need a checklist to remind me how to wash my hands or sterilize the equipment" or so and so forth? It's because people miss things they will they overlook things because it's so common practice to themselves. So we have the same sort of things within maintenance. So you need programs or systems, you need the culture, and then you need the accountability behind all those things.

Frank Danna
I'm wondering if you could if you could share a story, or an example of when maintenance reliability, failed, doesn't have to you don't have to name names or anything, but it just to kind of paint a picture for our audience. Tell us a story about where it failed, and then maybe walk us through some of those components of how it could have succeeded. Had you had the right process, the right people, tenets and the right accountability built in? Do you have any stories that you could share with us that kind of kind of help us help illuminate how this works in real life?

James Kovacevik
Yeah, there's a couple of different examples I can share. Working with a certain organization, they had a high speed piece of machinery. Alright, so it's filling bottles of liquid at a very high rate of speed, you know, 300 bottles per minute plus. Now in order to do that, it's an old, mechanically driven piece of equipment. So lots of timing belts and chains, and bearings and camps and all these different things. If those are set up, even slightly off, at half a degree, one degree two degrees, you can actually have the machine self destruct because stuff will start crashing into each other. So usually, there's a good SOP in place that the staff can follow to make sure everything's set up correctly, there's a testing location where they can test and verify that set up correctly before it goes out onto the machine. And there's even a checklist. So once it's installed, that we do step one, step two, step three, and so on, so forth. Well, in this instance, there is a very senior employee been there for 30 plus years, incredibly smart, incredibly talented, did the rebuild, did the check, soldered on the machine started up and crashed. So now instead of having, you know, just the time to replace this component, it was down for an extended period of time, nine plus hours, because it trashed a whole bunch of other pieces of the equipment, start going through the investigation. The individual didn't use the SOP, put it on a test stand, but the test stand, allowed some of those errors to pass. And then when they installed it on the machine, the checklist was involved to verify a few things. Normally, this employee was very, very good at doing that those types of things, following the checklist using SOP, but they had an off day at home before they came in. So, you know, did we have the right accountability? Do we have the right culture? Not going to say yes or no either way on that one, we had one of the right systems. But you know, if you're having an off day, raise your hand. And I don't know if it was a safe environment to do it at that time and say, Hey, I probably shouldn't be working on this right now. I had a bad day this morning. Let me go over here. But I don't think that culture was there. So we start getting into, you know, psychological safety, those types of things that is really, really important. Because if you make mistakes, someone could get hurt or worse than that.

Frank Danna
Right. That's, that's a great story. And it definitely highlights more of the cultural and behavioral aspects of high reliability and maintenance reliability in the space. And you touched on psychological safety as being paramount in this situation. So tell me about some of those other kind of behavioral elements that are required for a culture that needs to operate from this, this place of high reliability.

James Kovacevik
I think there's a couple of different pieces. So the psychological safety piece I think, is vital. No, I made a mistake. I'm not sure you know, I don't think I can do this day whatever the issue is raise it, though repercussions No, nothing. Okay, fine. We'll have you do this day or whatever we have that there's got to be a willingness to learn as well, like a continuous learning and development program. Technology changes very, very fast. So as new equipment comes in, we got to make sure we're training people on that. And that's often the first thing to go whenever times get tough in a manufacturer or organization is training. So we have to have psychological safety, a good training and development program. And that's not just formal training, it can be on the job training, so on so forth. The other thing, it's got to be a team, you got to be very heavily team based. So you have very specific trades and expertise. For example, you might have machinists, electricians, controls, instrumentation, all these people play a very important part to making sure that equipment runs correctly, it's set up safely, and so on so forth. If that, if there's not a team there, then what you end up having is a lot of problems where people are pointing fingers at each other, instead of actually working through an understanding the root cause, or trying to place blame. And then no one ever wants to participate in the root cause after that, because it becomes a blame session. So there's a lot of different pieces in there that that's required. Now, when we think of some of the best organizations from a maintenance or liability aspect, US Armed Forces is probably one of the best, I would say, the stuff we apply in industry is stuff that nuclear Navy has been using for 30-40 years to maintain high reliability and their assets. They have some of those, some of those cultural pieces, I don't know if they have all of them, but they also have a very high level accountability built into their systems, which helps to overcome some of the other pieces as well.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, I think when I mean, we brought this up upfront, but it's just like, we've always we had love as a business, right. And we've always held the strong belief that, you know, love when we say love is a business strategy. We mean, any and all businesses like we mean, this should apply to every workplace. And most often the people we work with, and the companies we work with are more, you know, agencies, you know, kind of busy, like tech businesses and things like that. And we don't always have a chance to cover, you know, manufacturing and plants and other things. And one of the things I think that's one of the conceptions around it is that these these places are driven more by processes and checklists and things that, you know, people just need to strictly follow, and you won't have any problems. And I think, where, where that reliability conversation comes in, I think what's really compelling about what you're saying is that, you know, people need people to make these things work, people need an opportunity to be able to, to speak up and hold themselves accountable, and the people around them accountable. Right like this. You mentioned that the US armed forces and things like that having a high level of accountability. How do you create this accountability, I guess, in, in a culture or in in an environment, that's, that's lacking it, because a lot of this, unlike the armed forces in our forces, kind of build it in a different way. But like in the average workplace environment, that accountability has to come through, like the mutual kind of trust at times and the mutual psychological safety, that they can speak up and call each other out and hold each other accountable without fear of repercussions and things like that. How do you how do you go about building that?

James Kovacevik
Yeah, that, you know, the psychological safety is one piece. But I think, you know, giving the giving the individuals on that team, the opportunity to develop their own systems and processes and involving them in the development of those from the beginning. Reason being is if they have the opportunity to sit down and look at the problem we're trying to solve. Maybe we have a bad rebuild on this component 60% of the time, it fails on startup. That's the problem we're trying to solve. So we involve all those individuals, can electrician, supervisors, engineers, and so on so forth as a cross functional team. They can go back and forth and work on what are the challenges, what are the different perceptions. And as a collective, they develop what the solution is, in my experience, when you empower people to develop the solution, they're more likely to own it, and hold other people on that task force or team accountable to it as well. It's not where, you know, the consultant comes in and says, This is how you're going to do it. Because then no one's gonna pay any attention to that, right. They have no ownership of it, but you empower them and give them that ownership, you're gonna start to hold each other accountable, as long as they know, it's safe to do so.

Frank Danna
Yeah, my question actually, kind of segues into that idea of safety again, because I'm wondering how, how do you get leaders because this, you know, one of the things that we talked about as a business strategy is the idea that leadership has to be aligned to creating a culture that is psychologically safe and creating a culture where trust and forgiveness and accountability and all these elements are visible. How do You get those leaders to the point where they are okay? With someone on a team speaking up, like that example you gave earlier of someone saying, Hey, I had an off day, and the leadership team, not saying, We're gonna hold that against you now, how do you what are some of the steps you take to get leaders to the point where they're able to be okay with that, and not only be okay with that, but emphasize the need for it?

James Kovacevik
Yeah, that's a big challenge. In my experience, depending on where you go, the type of industry, the company itself, that can be a major challenge, the way I've typically approached it, it's probably not a formal way of doing it. But I take the time to sit down with all those different groups of people, whether it's one on one with mechanics, electricians, whether it's in small groups wherever, just talk start to establish a relationship. Right? And if you start that right off the bat, and the way I typically do it is my first week or two on site, tell me your problems. And just let them vent? Because I'm the new guy, right? Let them vent, get all that out. And they say, okay, which ones are these are the most important to you? And how do we start overcoming some of these, then once again, you start asking them for solutions. And as you as you start to make some of these minor changes, which might be you know, we're gonna change shift schedule, or we're gonna move one person from this shift to that shift or whatever, we start to socialize. So socialize those ideas with them ahead of time, get their feedback, get their engagement, and then slowly, by doing that, with the smaller issues, they become more comfortable talking to you or comfortable approaching you. And then you start to get more of that in place. How we do that with some of the others as well, that becomes a challenge, right. So if you have a production manager that, you know, has never done that, and it's always this is the way we're gonna hold it against you. Yeah, now you have to influence from a pure level, potentially a leader level, right, as well, to kind of drive some of that. And the only way I've seen that successful personally is maintenance has to kind of get their stuff in order before we can start influencing outside of the department to overcome those things.

Frank Danna
It's interesting. So you have to, you have to kind of create the case for change. Internally, the reason for this, this this behavior change in this culture change. Because I can imagine that, you know, and we use this term, loosely, but intellectual arrogance can also come into play, where you run into people that are incredibly well educated, we talked about, I mean, when we're talking about maintenance, specifically, there's a high degree of education that has to go into because it's very specialized, right, just like in the healthcare space. How, how you navigate that, though, sounds like it's kind of, it's kind of challenging, because if you have someone who's done something for a long time, and you come in and say, Hey, we're going to be applying what you may consider to be softer skills to this approach, what are some of the tactics that have worked with for you to help some of those more challenging individuals, or people that are pushing back a little bit against it? What are some of those ways that you've been able to communicate the need and desire for changing and for growing?

James Kovacevik
And so when I when I'm trying to overcome those things, I do a couple things, you know, I always make sure to frame up the problem, what is the problem we're trying to solve? Right?

Frank Danna
It's not them. They're not the problem.

James Kovacevik
Correct. It's what's the business problem we're trying to solve? Right, or the machine problem we're trying to solve? So they understand that this isn't focused on them. This isn't, you know, this is the problem in a business standpoint, make sure you know, they understand the need for that. So why is this a problem? And if it hasn't, it's been this way for a very long time, why do we have to change? Right? So you got to create that compelling reason, compelling reason, you know, might be small and minor, that we got to get more throughput, or the machines getting older, we gotta change how we maintain it, or, you know, you're getting ready to retire in the next six months.

Frank Danna
There you go.

James Kovacevik
We got to make sure that your apprentice is ready to go for this and can take over when you retire. Right? So you got to make sure you frame it up from that perspective, then I involve them in the solution development. Right? If I don't involve them, and empower them to start doing those things, they're not gonna own it. Now, that's not always an option right off the bat. Because depending on where you've been, they may never have been given that ability and you offer it, they're kinda like, what? What do you what are you doing here? So then it becomes a lot of one to one conversations, you know, establishing a relationship trust, and even helping them by giving them multiple suggestions for how to solve it, and then have them start pros and cons of each and then you start developing it through that way. So we get them engaged in that.

Jeff Ma
James, what are you as you go into, like manufacturers and talk to them and work with them? What are you generally seeing, I guess, like, I know, they're, they're bringing you into to solve a problem or perhaps, you know, get get that that you're, you know what you specialize in? But when you start Talking about the people side of the problem. What are you seeing? Is it coming as a surprise? Are they resistant? Are they kind of like, I don't want to deal with feelings, I just want you to fix my, my problem, like, what are you, you know, give me give me a taste for like what you see when you enter these environments.

James Kovacevik
So when we, when I first entered the environments, everyone thinks that their process is special, and they have these special issues that no one's ever going to solve. You quickly, you quickly realize that it doesn't matter if you're making fighter jets pumping oil out of the ground or putting something in a bottle 80% of the problems are the same? Well, what it becomes is just customizing the solutions to some of those specific problems. Usually, it stems from two things, no processes to begin with no formalized processes, everything stripping off tribal knowledge. And second is the culture of the maintenance department. Most departments that I walk into, don't have a really good culture. It's either adversarial, with the company. So the company versus the maintenance department, you have very different perspectives. Or, you know, at this point, what I'm seeing in a lot of organizations is there's a very big split and the demographics of the department's themselves, you have the baby boomers are getting close to retirement or retiring right now who've been in that role for 3040 years. And then you have some of the new people coming in, that have a very different perspective on things. Neither one I'm going to say is wrong, they both have very good perspectives. And oftentimes, if you smash them together, we get the best vote, we get the best of what we need, right. But they come in and even hat, there's trouble between the two groups because of the different perspectives. So when you walk into this site, it's really only 30 40%, technical maintenance, you know, like root cause analysis, business processes, that sort of stuff, the rest of the stuff is cultural. And the other thing that you see, as most of these organizations, they have tried to make these improvements multiple times, and it failed. So it hasn't been sustained. So then you get up, here's another flavor of the week. Yep. Oh, wait, this guy, oh, he's gonna be gone in a year. And you get that sort of thing you got overcome that culture? And you go back to how do we empower and sustain? It?

Frank Danna
Sounds a lot like, I mean, yeah, it's so interesting, all of the elements are talking about right now could apply to any company, like, you know, you're talking about a highly specialized area of maintenance, reliability, but in the grand scheme of things, people are people. And when you when you come in to an organization or group of people that just don't have a good culture, it's us versus them. We've tried these types of things before, we're just here to do a job. You know, we, you know, it's very interesting how we hear similar similar things in a variety of industries. And it's the same for this this space as well.

James Kovacevik
Yeah it's it. I agree. 100%, I was working with a client not too long ago, and they had a change manager. So someone who specializes in change management, yeah, wires, large project, right. She came from software space. And she was kind of overwhelmed initially, because bunch of maintenance acronyms and stuff like that. And once she got through the first couple weeks of understanding some of these, some of these pieces, she made the comment, this is the exact same thing I did when I was implementing ERPs. Because it's almost the exact same thing. Because it comes down to people. And if we don't engage them, empower them, treat them as peers, give them trust and all those other things. They're not going to make any changes.

Jeff Ma
Pushing forward into kind of in the future here, like what what do you what what kind of tactics I guess do you bring in when it comes to sustaining change? I guess, because I think I think it's one thing to come in, I imagine that your job is often surrounded around an immediate problem or something to solve when you first step into a space. But in terms of like the unforeseen, like preparing teams to be resilient, if you will like to be ready to handle the next big hurdle? What What kind of approaches have you seen are taken there?

James Kovacevik
Yeah. So when we talk about that flavor of the month, we're trying to avoid that. Right. So the whole sustainability thing. So there's a couple of approaches, we take. One, we want to create internal subject matter experts, right? If they're relying on me to solve these things all the time. It's not the culture is never going to change this. Just go call James.

Frank Danna
Yeah, you're not in in the culture. Right?

James Kovacevik
So we create the internal subject matter experts. And now usually that involves specialized training, coaching, development, maybe even internships in other areas of the business are planned to build up certain skills. And we have them start leading what we'll call focus teams. Now these focus teams are teams of internal staff who are trying to solve this unique business problem. They go through, they understand current, develop the future state, they understand the business better than I ever will because they operate in it every day, I just provide some expertise on the team development side and the maintenance side, they develop these future states, they go pilot it in a certain area, they generate results, or in some instances, they don't, but they learned a ton of what they don't need to do anymore and thinks they should do now. They consolidate those learnings, and then deploy to another area. And as they're doing this, they're creating more and more expertise in a team. So it's not just the SME, that led the team, but everyone else in there is getting exposure to it, and how it works, and so on, so forth. Now, the interesting thing is, is this initial team is actually made up of not just cross functional people, but people from different areas of the site. So when it finally gets to their area of the site, they've already seen it, been exposed to it, and know what's coming. So that helps with some of the change management side. Then to wrap it all up, you know, there's got to be a training development process put in place for all new employees, refresher training for the current employees. And then, like most businesses, you got put in some sort of performance management piece, whether it's, you know, KPIs, metrics on so forth, and then move all that back up with a continuous improvement process.

Jeff Ma
Make sense? It's incredible to keep continue to see the simple parallels, I guess, to non, you know, manufacturing and other like, it's almost industry agnostic at this point, some of the principles that can be used to apply, you know, better culture, essentially

James Kovacevik
100%, it comes down to empowering your team, making it psychological, safe, safe. And really giving them the opportunity to do what they need to do. You know, when we work with law, these organizations for their leaders, it's, you don't need to know the intricate details of that stuff. That's their, their responsibility very, they know what they need to do, you need to get the barriers out of their way. So they can keep doing it. You know, it's just same principles doesn't matter the industry from what I what I can find.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And, and I think this was a really important conversation, I think for for myself and for our audience, because I think our audience is typically going to be more of the like, office worker, if you will, or corporate, yeah, corporate type of business. But I think it's it's incredibly profound, I think, to keep in mind, the element like, I think it's actually hard for people to really drive home that, that, you know, business always comes down to people at the end of the day, and like, no matter what type of problem you're solving, no matter who you're working with, no matter what kind of project you're doing, you know, people get really focused on the the processes, the tools, the just direct outcomes, the numbers. And we we spend most of our energy trying to trying to help people understand that, you know, people are people and no matter what you'd like, your bottom line is always tied down to people first. And to hear from a different perspective, I think it's just super important because it's very similar. But it's also just such a different world. It's a world that everybody works with and understands readily. And yet, this creates this really good, like relation and kind of empathy for me to see that, you know, no matter how you go out in the world, just as people go about their work lives, all of this matter. All this applies all this should be a part of it.

James, I wanted to also give you a chance to talk about your podcast just a little bit, I want to make sure you could plug it a little bit, tell us a little bit about it, and how people can find it.

James Kovacevik
Alright, perfect. Thank you. So Rooted in Reliability is the podcast. It's focused on, obviously, maintenance, reliability, and all the different aspects of it, whether it's the leadership and cultural side, whether it's some of the specific process side, spare parts management, work management, developing PDFs, all those different things. You can find it at F or reliability.fm. That's a podcast network for at least five or six different podcasts, very various aspects of reliability and asset management and maintenance. Anyone has any questions want to chat? Manufacturing, maintenance, reliability, they can find me on LinkedIn, that's probably the easiest, James Kovacevik or just typing Rooted in Reliability, and that'll find me as well on there.

Jeff Ma
Awesome. James, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today and sharing insights into into your world and your perspective and sharing your expertise. Really appreciate it.

James Kovacevik
Thank you for having me. And thank you for the opportunity and hopefully your audience found some value in it.

Frank Danna
For sure. Oh, yeah. Thanks, James.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, and to Our audience, thank you so much for listening. Thank you continue to thank you for continuing to listen, I hope to get as many episodes under my belt as James has of his podcasts over three years incredible. But be sure on our end to also check out our book. I always plug it, I will never stop plugging in because we're proud of it. Love is a business strategy. Available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc. And please be sure to like subscribe rate, the podcast wherever you're listening to it. And and always, as always tell your friends. So with that, thank you again, thank you to our audience. Thank you, James. Thank you, Frank. And we will see you next week.