Gayle Lantz  
I do see increasing interest in senior executives looking at their behaviors. Sometimes they're in organizations and they're they get feedback, 360 feedback or they just get more input than they might have years ago to help them get better perspective on themselves. I think self awareness is everything, everything, the most effective leaders that I work with.

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, the podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders tend to shy away from, we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I want to have some conversations with real people. And here's some real stories and talk about real business in the real world. My guest today is Gayle Lantz, the dynamic founder and CEO of Workmatters Incorporated, specializing in visioning, strategic planning and team and executive development. Gayle has guided businesses such as NASA, Microsoft Southern Company, UAB, Protective Life, as well as many other small and midsize firms and she helps them shape cultures and ignite transformation. Gayle is the host of the CEO on the go podcast, which is ranked in the top 5% of all podcasts globally. I'm gonna have to find out how she did that later. And she's the author of the award winning book Take the bull by the horns and creator of the leadership journal, which is available on Amazon. Before starting her business over 20 years ago, Gayle held an officer level position with TIAA, a leader in its industry serving those in the academic, medical, cultural and research research fields. Her voice in her work had been featured in local national and global business publications, including Businessweek. Harvard management update Fast Company, Wall Street Journal online in the New York Times, a regular voice in elite publications from the Wall Street Journal. In New York Times, as I mentioned, she's pushing the boundaries and redefining what's achievable. So please join us as we dive deep into the thoughts of Gayle Lantz, welcome.

Gayle Lantz  
Hey, thanks,

Jeff Ma  
Gayle. Such an amazing kind of resume of things that we just listed. But I always am most curious out the gate about you as an individual as a human, and especially where your passions kind of reside. Can you share a little bit about what you're passionate about? And how you found that passion?

Gayle Lantz  
Yeah, it probably found me. I think the passion that has been the common thread throughout most of my life, is helping people through difficult experiences, different difficult, emotional issues. So I think in the way that I operate now working mainly with senior executives, when I look back, I can see that pattern and how it even started with me, as a child, having to work through some some challenges. Usually, they're in the area of some kind of transition, when you're moving from one phase to the next, or moving from something that you've known well, to something that's very different getting out of your comfort zone, those are all kind of the themes that I'm drawn toward, that I want to help people through. I've just done it differently over the years.

Jeff Ma  
How did you find your niche kind of in like, as you mentioned, you work a lot with CEOs top most leaders. It's a small audience overall, compared to the greater audience out there. And it's a much needed thing. But how did you find that place? Where where you really found yourself excelling in that specific type of consulting and help?

Gayle Lantz  
Yeah, well, I think it probably stemmed from the experience that I had, when I was in the corporate world, as an executive at a pretty young age in my 20s, having a lot of responsibility. And in in that time, in my life, it was very stressful. And I was traveling a lot, still figuring things out. And I knew that I'd gotten to a point where something needed to change. And I didn't know exactly what and that I would need some help figuring it out. And so I sought out an executive coach at the time when I was in that place, and my life and my work where I just knew there's something else that I need to be doing something here needs to change. I just couldn't do it on my own. So I think that kind of grounded me in the path that I took to want to work with other people who were kind of like I was where they had been in their career for a while working in high level leadership roles. But they just needed a kind of a voice of reason or a thinking partner to help them move through some of the difficult situations. So I think that's probably where it I started applying that to the executive market. But I've really wanted to help people in general for a really long time I started out kind of in the mental health field, just helping people with really serious issues suicidal homicidal, really challenging mental health issues. So I think it prepared me well, actually, for some of the experiences and projects that I've been working on since them.

Jeff Ma  
Amazing. Absolutely. And one of the reasons I was excited about today's conversation is because you do work, like, as you mentioned, with all these, like executives, and people who are driving the vision direction of these larger organizations, which impacts you know, hundreds of people that that work with them or under them. But the topic today was, like, I could have talked about a lot of things, but I really want to dive into, like purpose and meaning. And I think it's all connected, because I think that a lot of people in the workplace today, we won't generalize, but you will hear a lack of purpose, sometimes a lack of meaning for them personally. And it's tied off into also the organization indirectly or directly to the leader leaders in the organization. And there's this, there's this thread that sometimes missing between a business's vision and their kind of values and their, their, what they're out there to do, and how leadership represents it, how they bring that forward, and how they drive that through and down to each individual. And there's this, there's so much power when we talk about culture, when we talk about love as a business strategy. That's driven from from having that purpose. And so I really wanted to pick your brain today around this topic. And and hopefully, you can kick us off maybe maybe a maybe almost like a one on one, if you will, when it when you say purpose driven? Yeah, what does that mean to you?

Gayle Lantz  
Yeah, well, I think purpose in like he said, it's a really big topic. And it's been out there a lot, you know, the purpose driven, fill in the blank, but I think for me purpose, there's, there's like, the purpose with a big P, like, what is the purpose of life? You know, purpose, why you're here are the big questions. And then there's purpose, maybe with the smaller P you know, what, like, why are we having this meeting? Why, why are we holding this workshop, right? So I think two, they're both important. So it depends on where we go for talking about our life, then it's really important, even even in business, it's important to think about the bigger purpose and to just make sure there's as much alignment as possible with the work you're doing and what you consider to be your purpose in the bigger picture. And I think to your point, a lot of people don't either know how or they've lost sight, and leaders need to help keep purpose front and center. And it's, it's really hard for them, especially today, because the pace of change is so fast, there's so much distraction, all the other employee issues, burnout, people leaving their jobs. So sometimes purpose gets thrown out the window when you're just trying to get through the day. And and I really liked that you emphasize that leaders play such an important role in that process, when sometimes they themselves have lost sight of, of why they're doing what they're doing.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, there's a bit of the put your own oxygen mask on before helping others. So yeah, going on. Yeah. So what does what does a purpose driven leader look like to you? Like if you're painting that picture of the ideal state when it comes to purpose, like, paint me that picture? Yeah, that's

Gayle Lantz  
a great question. I think I think they're fairly confident and know what their values are, what they stand for. They're clear on their mission. So they kind of exude that that kind of confidence and spirit of everything that they do really is it's evident that that purpose is what's driving them. It's not hidden. It's not something that people would have to wonder about. People in their organization see that clearly in them so that they understand what it is that's really driving them. If that makes sense. I think everybody's purpose is a little different. And how they interpret purpose is different.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, I, in my, in my travels, in my conversations, I come across what I would consider many purpose driven leaders. But what I find kind of more often surprising is that those same leaders aren't necessarily able to bring that out of others, or translated into others or, you know, they're highly visible, that I feel that they're there. their drive and their purpose is on display. But can you talk a little bit about why that might happen? Or? Or where we need to focus on to? Yeah. To address that?

Gayle Lantz  
Why there's a disconnect? Yeah. Is that what you're asking? Yeah, I think sometimes there are assumptions made at the top, you know, you leave the leadership meeting, you say, Okay, we're just going to tell our people this, here's the message. And depending on how that's delivered, it may fall flat if leaders haven't really considered how they can communicate the message in a way that resonates with the people in the organization. I've shared this, this example before in other conversations, but I remember when I was in the corporate world, and we had the CEO, kind of explaining our vision and mission, and it would it took over an hour it was it became very complicated in a way that it was just kind of a monologue, and kind of hard to grasp or buy into. So I think the more modernized approaches involve, having conversations with people with team members to help get them understanding and talking about what is that purpose mean to them. So I don't think it can be dictated, I don't think it can just be communicated down the line, I think purpose is something that really deserves to be in the conversations that leaders can have. And that's, that's where I see my my best clients, the leaders that are purpose driven, making sure that they're weaving that back into the conversation in some way and reorienting people around why we're doing what we're doing.

Jeff Ma  
That makes so much sense. Because what I see all too often is that there's this invisible kind of hazy line drawn when it comes to if you look at an organization as you climb the ranks. And for some reason beyond a certain line, every leader above that line starts viewing these types of topics as tactics and strategies for a like faceless sea of people that are beneath the line. And, and that's where you consistently see these culture initiatives come out as like words, and, and just kind of like catchy catchphrases and inspirational kind of messages. And I love that you kind of pointed out the need to still have the conversation. Yeah. And break through that line a little bit, even if you're all the way at the top. To stay connected, right?

Gayle Lantz  
Yeah. And that can happen a lot of ways. You know, a lot of the experiences that I create with organizations is having people share stories, specific examples, where that purpose is evident in the organization where they're modeling what needs to be happening. And that's a very tangible way to help employees understand what it is that the organization is trying to do and why. So I really like introducing the element of storytelling in that process.

Jeff Ma  
No, absolutely. I'm curious. There's a saying it's used a lot, I guess that it's lonely at the top. And, you know, I can't help but see that play out, truthfully, in a lot of cases. And when I connect that to our conversation here, and we're talking about this, it's really a drive this is like it's driven and driven through passion, it's part of our why we wake up in the morning, and all these things that make us combined for our satisfaction, or like kind of gratitude in the world. And then you have this like element of, of loneliness, when you're a leader of feeling like you're pushing these types of things alone. And there's the I see a stark contrast between kind of what the leader once leader has a vision for, then you trace it all the way down to kind of last the last row, and what they want, and what they are passionate about. Where where's the best, what's the best way to kind of connect that lonely leader at the top kind of down and make them maybe make them feel a little less lonely? I feel like a lot. No one else is driven or purpose driven the way they are?

Gayle Lantz  
Yeah. Well, and that's a big question with their multiple answers that are coming to mind. But one of the obvious things to do is to connect them with the front line, just to have them spend more time there to understand to build relationships at all levels within the organization. Part of the problem, it can be structural if the top leaders are more isolated, and they really don't have the opportunity to engage with people at all levels. So there are ways to create that and even apart from townhall meetings and that kind of approach where you just pile a bunch of people in a room and you're asking questions. I'm talking about having a coffee or one off, you know, join me for breakfast like, I want to have a one on one, if I'm a CEO or senior executive, just for the purpose of listening, just to get a pulse on what's going on No pressure, just, I'm just wanting to make sure I understand what the issues and challenges are and how I can help support you. So it doesn't need to be a formal interview process doesn't need to be a formal mentoring program. I know there are a lot of them out there. And that can be great too. But it really does not have to be complicated. It just starts with the intention to reach people within different parts of the organization. And to foster that conversation among each other to because chances are it's not just the the leader at the top, there are other leaders as well that probably need to be better connected to other parts of the organization. So perpetuating that the other the other answer that came to mind is helping leaders who are feeling lonely, to find their own peer networks, and bounce some ideas around with some of their their peers, those are I run those senior executive and CEO peer groups as well. So there, you might find some ideas based on what someone else is doing, you know, who's feeling the same way and getting some some outside perspective that can be really valuable to? So

Jeff Ma  
that makes sense. Yeah. A theme striking through here in the conversation CEOs get out of your office. Yeah, go go talk to people go Yeah,

Gayle Lantz  
and get out of your head, you know, that's the problem. Because a lot of times, you are the only one that knows kind of all the moving pieces, and you feel such pressure or this heavy load. So I think it's really important to, to get the other perspective and inspiration too, that you can find from other people who are doing similar things and who can support you and the work that you're doing.

Jeff Ma  
Gayle I know you work a lot in kind of like the visioning the planning, strategic kind of side of things. When working with leadership in this context, how often would you say, you know, behaviors come up? I feel like there's a lot of, and this is like a loaded question. Because, you know, obviously, I have my view on this. But I think a lot of leaders have a lot of problems to solve a lot of, you know, more problems and solutions. And, you know, as leaders, you're looking for that plan, you're looking for that strategy, you're looking for that tactic to guide you through it and make it make sense. And I feel not enough, not often enough, we're taking kind of putting that to the side a little bit. And also talking about behaviors. When I say behaviors, I mean, like, how you actually kind of have self awareness about yourself, how you show up in an actual space, how you present yourself, how you communicate, and all those things. Where's that? Where's that sit in your formula.

Gayle Lantz  
It's an important element. And I do see increasing interest in senior executives looking at their behaviors. Sometimes they're in organizations, and they're they get feedback, 360 feedback, or they just get more input than they might have years ago, to help them get better perspective on themselves. I think self awareness is everything, everything. The most effective leaders that I work with, are self aware, or they're working on that they it's something that they understand is so important. And they're even going so far as to identify some of the key behaviors that they would like to model or take on. I'm a huge advocate of not trying to be somebody that you're not leveraging your own natural strengths and way of being and the way that you behave naturally. However, that being said, sometimes there's some tweaks or some adjustments that you can do to help make you more effective, there are assessments that you can use that help pinpoint some areas that might want to help improve effectiveness to so I think behavioral and communication styles specifically, are incredibly important. And I'm excited that more companies are putting a stronger focus on that you're gonna have the best strategy, you're gonna map out the most beautiful plan, have all the steps, it does not matter if you've got people are misunderstanding each other or where there's conflict created, or they're not talking to each other to make it happen. And so that's, I think that's a really important part of the process. Agreed. And is usually becoming more important after you've had a major problem.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, unfortunately, that is true. It generally seems to be the case. That's when I get the phone call at least Yeah, yeah. When it comes back to coming back to purpose, and when it comes to what what would you say to a leader who may not have Have a clear statement or an understanding for themselves of what their kind of purpose and their drive is. Maybe Maybe they, I just want to make money. I want to make this successful. I just want to be, you know, business like little top of the business world. What how do you help them out?

Gayle Lantz  
Yeah, so first of all, I would say, that's perfectly fine. There. You know, there's, there's no judgement here. I think if they're eager or curious to know, what is my purpose, to help them understand that it's not something that you necessarily have to work hard at figuring out, I believe that your purpose is there. And that it can be revealed, that it that you have a lot of stuff in the way, I don't know how to describe this in the best way. But maybe you can relate to it, you're super busy, you've just got all these things that you're doing doing doing. So you have a lot of stuff that's in the way that's keeping you from even seeing what the purpose is. And I also think that your purpose can change over time, depending on what you experience who you are. I know, that's been my personal experience when I was well into my business, probably 10 years or so. And my, my dad became very ill he had Alzheimer's, and I had to take about a year off. Our family was really trying to help him and I started learning about dementia all time, like, I kind of put my business on the side, my bit my purpose, which ordinarily, you know, work matters want to help help companies bring more meaning and purpose to work and help engage employees and create great leaders all that I didn't care about, at that moment, given the personal issues, I felt like my mission, my purpose, at that time was to help educate people about the importance of learning more about dementia, and how to cope, because that's what I was doing. And I flew to the Alzheimer's Association in Chicago, you know, started building relationships with it, I was like, I felt like a different person had emerged, at least temporarily. And that became my purpose. At that time, different from my business purpose, I think so I think kind of have multiple purposes to but that was the one that was front and center that I felt like I had to act on. Then I still feel strongly about it today. But I remember feeling like there wasn't much I could do to help him at that point. But I wanted to help others. And I actually ended up speaking at one of their corporate partner events, just by building that relationship. And then I came back after my dad had passed and said, Okay, I'm going to re enter my business and kind of reestablish what my new purpose is. And I think that my business has also progressed differently. Because I sense that my, I still have an underlying purpose of wanting to help people and organizations move through change and transition and difficult experiences, but the way I do it, has shifted. And I think the perspective that I had even because of what I experienced with my with my dad makes me better at what I'm doing in this next iteration of how I'm evolving my business. Does that make sense?

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. And I really appreciate you sharing that story. And thank you for that. Because not only is it an important kind of humanizing element of who you are and what you bring to the table, but it's a amazing almost an aha moment for me in the sense that like, when we talk about purpose, I guess I'm guilty of kind of framing it as this like calling from, from a higher place. And this thing that is like, so well formulated, and kind of like you just like stays with you from like, all your life, the perfect statement. Yeah. And I love that that's just this is real, it's like in the moment, it's what you what you can't stop thinking about, it's what you want to make happen. And that can be your purpose, and it can add on to another one shifts from here to there. And I think that's really important, for my mindset, least to shift around what it means to be purpose driven.

Gayle Lantz  
Yeah, yeah. And to not lock into it, if you think that your purpose has kind of evolved to be open to that, to not to have to follow it and be letting that be, you know, be the beacon when you need it to be but also be willing to look at it differently or evolve that if you need to at the same time.

Jeff Ma  
I love it such a shift. And it's so important. I think for for me when I when I think of my purpose, for instance, doing this podcast and coming here and wanting to help people, maybe I need to kind of you know, shift, you know, where my like core core driving, you get so stubborn, kind of to yourself, like almost as if you committed to something. Yep, I can relate. You don't want it you don't want to give up on it. But deep in your heart, it might have shifted a little not that it needs to go away. It just means that you need to like rethink it have that growth mindset around it. Yeah,

Gayle Lantz  
it's so interesting. You said that because just before this interview with you, I did a session on podcasting for group of entrepreneurs and We started getting into questions about what you know, what technology do you use? And how many episodes should you have? And how long should they be? And how do you run it and all that. And finally, you know, I just, I just really wanted to leave them with the idea of why do you want to do it to start with what is the real purpose for wanting to start a podcast or be a guest on a podcast, like, get clear about that, and I hope that that, that helped them because it's so easy to get swept away, and all the tactics, and you could do this, and you could do that when at the end of the day about everything, not just about the podcast, but to really step back and go, Why, why is this important? And is this important now? And how is this you know, purpose driven in the moment?

Jeff Ma  
My last question, or line of questioning really is, is really around, kind of connecting this directly to a lot of what myself and the listeners are working on, which is, at its core behavior change. It's a mindset change, that attitude changes a lot of things, but the end of the day, the hope is that can find ways for ourselves and to help others around us, of course, you know, make a difference in terms of how we show up how we, how we treat others, how we how we react to, you know, being triggered, and how we, how we, how we do those things. And so, to me, that's always been very connected to purpose. You, you have to understand kind of what it is you you care about your own case for change, like your change doesn't just kind of impart itself, just because you think it's a good idea, you have to care enough for that change to happen. Yeah. So my question comes along line of, how do you, I know, you're saying, find your purpose, and it can be different, it can be malleable, but to me, I think it's really important for people to find some part of their purpose connected to kind of helping, or at least being something positive for their organization, and those around them from like a human element of, of care. And I think it's to me, I firmly believe that it's in all of us, as humans, that we naturally care, we naturally want people to be happy around us, we want to make people happy. And somewhere along the lines, you know, work needs in stressors and things like that, kind of turn that into, you know, sometimes toxic environments or unhealthy relationships. I'm trying to word the question, and I haven't really gotten to it. But I might put it very bluntly, like I want, I want to be able to change people's purpose, or at least add to people's purpose, an element of care and love, really, if it doesn't already exist, or if I can elevate that within their purpose.

Gayle Lantz  
I see where it coming from? Do

Jeff Ma  
you have any advice for me,

Gayle Lantz  
I would say be careful about trying to change anyone. However, you might be able to influence or share what it's meant to you. Show the power that it can have tap help others tap into what they do truly care about. I do think kind of like you at the end of the day, people are probably driven by something that is very, like you said, oriented around helping human beings in some way. I don't think it can be forced, I don't think it can be imposed on. I think all you can do is continue to do what you're doing, exposing people to different ways of thinking about why they do what they do, talking about love as a business strategy as a means to to challenge their thinking and open up new opportunity for them to perhaps broaden or shift, you know, whatever's driving them. I try to honor whatever is someone's purpose, or however they express it. Because I think who am I to tell them even though I kind of share your belief about how important it is. I just know how difficult it can be when you're trying to to make that happen. And I think the best leaders can help others actually discover what that purpose is provide the space provide that non judgmental opportunity for people just to talk about what they care about. And when people can talk about what they care about. That's really the indicator that you need to see about what's what's underneath that in terms of a purpose. So leaders can stir up that all they want and stir it up in themselves to if they've lost it to your point if they feel like they are at a juncture where they need to do something different or new or iterate to the next level to ask themselves the questions you know what is it that really lights me up now? What am I on fire about? What do I care about now, so that they can relight that fire and have that ultimately lead them in in a direction that makes sense.

Jeff Ma  
That's helpful. Thank you. Yeah, real quick. Can you talk a little bit about take the bull by the horns, the leadership journal? Oh, yeah, those things and where people can check that out? Yeah, we'll

Gayle Lantz  
take the bull by the horns came out a number of years ago was my first book and I jokingly say, my next book is going to be stopped taking the bull by the horns, it does not need to be so hard, right? But take the bull by the horns is a good, easy read, with really great tips questions to prompt you and your team if you're interested in that each page has two chapters. So super easy read. The leadership journal is just simply a weekly tool that leaders can use to help them focus 10 minutes or so once a week to answer the same five questions to challenge their thinking, have them reflect on what really matters, fostering gratitude every week, it's so powerful. So that's another simple tool they can use. And then I'll have a new book coming out. Hopefully by the end of the year, but I'm excited that that's coming out too. So thanks for asking.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. And of course, the podcast See you on the go. I hope to be a CEO one day so I can join you on that podcast. Yeah,

Gayle Lantz  
CEO on the go. It was so great to have your colleagues on there for love as a business strategy episode. They did a great job. So yeah, so I'm like you I'm continuing to run my podcast in a way that makes sense for me that I think is fulfilling my purpose right now, but it's subject to change at any time.

Jeff Ma  
I love it. I really appreciate the time you spent today. Everybody please go check out the podcast check out take the bull by the horns leadership journal. And Gayle. I really appreciate the insights you had today. I look forward to hopefully more conversations that we can have around work matters as well because I'm very interested I'm very I think what you're doing is awesome and much needed in the world. So thank you for joining us today. Thanks

Gayle Lantz  
Jeff. I appreciate it.

Jeff Ma  
The listeners appreciate you as always check out our book love as a business strategy while you're at it. If you haven't I don't know why you're here. But love is ready. Still. It's still there. still out there. Still best seller and subscribe rate the podcast tell a friend. We appreciate you. So with that we will see everybody next week. Have a good one.