Jeff Ma
Hey folks, we have some exciting news for you all. We have just launched a brand new company founded on the tenets of our love as a business strategy, philosophy, the same philosophy that you've grown to know and love. This new venture is called Culture Plus, Culture Plus is a culture as a service company that provides training experiences, consulting services, and digital tools to help companies achieve high performing and high reliability cultures and teams. To learn more, visit culture-plus.com. That's culture- plus.com. And now, let's get to the show. Hey, folks, if you've been looking for the episode, that's a deep dive into psychological safety. Well, here it is. Today's guest is Mehmet Baha, who has traveled around the world to deliver speeches and trainings on leadership, resilience, high performing teams, and of course, psychological safety. He breaks down his approach to psychological safety in such clear and straightforward ways. It's going to give you some great ways to start improving You, yourself and your teams. So I really hope you enjoy this show.

Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from and we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. Hello, I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I'm joined today by co host and co author, Mohammad Anwar. Hey, Mo, how are you today?

Mohammad Anwar
Hey, Jeff doing good.

Jeff Ma
As always, we're going to be diving into the stories and the lessons of one guest testing our love as a business strategy theory against it. And today's guest is Mehmet Baha. And he's the founder of Solution Folder, which provides learning solutions to make companies more collaborative and agile. He has more than 18 years of work experience. He's residing in Germany, but he's also been in Ireland, Turkey, Cyprus and the US. And he was also one of the first employees in Facebook of Europe. And he now delivers speeches and trainings all around the world around agile leadership, resilience, high performing teams, psychological safety, and the like. So welcome to the show. Baha, how are you?

Mehmet Baha
Thank you, Jeff and Mehmet. I'm doing well. And how about you?

Jeff Ma
Oh, you know, it's we're recording this in the New Years, our first podcast the new year. So it's an honor and a pleasure to have you here joining us is great way to kick things off.

Mehmet Baha
Likewise.

Jeff Ma
Speaking of that, I have an icebreaker question. And I'll make Mohammad go first. So you get some time Baha. Today's question is what's named name a positive thing that happened to you last year? So in 2021, what was a positive thing to come out of 2021?

Mehmet Baha
Yeah, the first thing that comes to my mind is my book. So I released my book last year in April. It's called the Playbook for Engaged Employees. It was always my dream to write a book. And last year was a great opportunity to finish the final details of the book, release it as a soft copy as well as a Kindle version.

Jeff Ma
Congratulations. Thank you. Awesome. Amazing. I know, what about you? What is a positive thing that happened to you last year?

Mohammad Anwar
And if you had to pick one, I'm thinking just the fact that we survived 2021. Like, it was a tough year, you know, it's a tough year for the whole world coming out of 2020. Oh, you talk to me during one is going to get better, but during during one, you know, hung around with the COVID pandemic. So I think just coming out of 2021, give me one, it was a positive thing. I think personally, professionally, you know, health wise everything. So that's what I would say, Well, are there a lot of other plethora of other things, I think that's, that one's worth celebrating.

Mehmet Baha
Um, yeah, he's very important point.

Mohammad Anwar
Is to be Thank you. Well,

Jeff Ma
I want to jump into all the things. One of the really thing one of the things I'm really interested in talking to you about today is psychological safety. I know you have, you know, a lot of stuff that you talk about a lot of really important things that you say about it. Before we get there. Maybe kick us off a little bit about, you know, who you are, kind of where your passions come from. I'd love to hear a little bit more about you, if you don't

Mehmet Baha
Yeah. And as you mentioned, my name is Mehmet Baha buys my last name and everyone calls me Baha. Since I was a child. I was thinking about how I can make a difference in the world. And this led me to get a scholarship Fulbright, and I did my Master's in the US on the topical conflict resolution. I studied in Washington, DC. After that, I started working around the world. I worked in Turkey, at United Nations as a consultant. And then I moved to Ireland, Dublin, that was 2009. And I started working at Facebook, I was one of the first employees of Facebook in Europe, as you mentioned. And after that, I got an opportunity in Germany. This time, I started working at German Tech company. This German tech company was developing eye tracking technology, specialized tracking glasses. And I was working there close with the CEO and the owner of the company, which was a great experience, I was in charge of expanding sales in Latin America, Spain, India, when I was struggling a lot. And this German company does not exist anymore, because it was acquired by April. And for the last five years. I'm the founder or Solution Folder, I do training and give talks on the topics of psychological safety, resilience, agility. And in my free time, I like to travel with my family, and play puzzles with my five year old daughter, and also play the percussion. I'm a musician as well, I have played percussion with different bands. And coming to the topical psychological safety. It's one of the topics that I'm really passionate about, not only reading, investing, investigating it, writing about it, but also living it is through my own experience as well.

Jeff Ma
Awesome. Thank you for that. And, and I just I guess I'm just curious, like you have such a, an interesting story and journey through life. And you've always just wanted to make a difference in the world. What, what connects psychological safety to that goal for you? Like what, what brought you to so much passion about psychological safety?

Mehmet Baha
Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe one of the reasons could be related to what I studied conflict resolution. In psychological safety, you need to know how to deal with opposing views, challenging situations, even in conflict. Conflict topics, topics, which which involve conflict, originally come from Cyprus, and I come from the Turkish Pardo line. And as you might know, the island is divided, there has been a conflict in the island for many decades. And it was one of the reasons may well, I was born on the island of Cyprus, this conflict situation, then studying in the US conflict resolution, and then working in different companies around the world. And then this topic of psychological safety. I think I heard about it. While I was working at Facebook, and then especially around 2013, the topic became very popular. And in my work, I started from the perspective of conflict resolution five, six years ago, and then evolved into leadership development. And then in the last two, three years, with more focus on psychological safety.

Jeff Ma
I feel like I feel like psychological safety is a topic that, especially in more recent years, along with other awareness of social and even mental health issue, all these things that have just gained a more global awareness. This has really come to the surface. It's a term that's been around, but not necessarily at the forefront of what people talk about or care about. Now. We hear a lot about it. So what's different? Like what do you think is is is different about psychologically today and how we understand it?

Mehmet Baha
Yeah. Yeah, right. The concept has been around since 1960s. It was created by Warren Bennis, together with another researcher in the 1960s. They were basically looking at psychological safety learning environments. And then around 2013, Google started this project called Aristotle. The question was what makes teams high performing. And while they were looking at academic papers, they came across Amy Edmondson, professor at Harvard Business School. And then there was an article written on New York Times about this project, our social psychological safety, and since then, the topic has became very popular. Psychological safety meets on the research a medicine is a work environment, where employees feel free to express questions, concerns, ideas, mistakes. This is very important. Let me repeat it. psychological safety is a work environment where employees feel free to express their questions, concerns, ideas and mistakes, and especially in these times of COVID psychological safety is very important, as people are working remotely. And also the health and well being aspect of it. Many people trying to juggle homework, homework or their kids homeschooling, as well as their own work responsibilities at home. And it's crucial for leaders for us to create a psychologically safe workplace where employees feel feel safe to express their concerns, ideas, mistakes, and questions as well. And these can allow us to have high performing teams as well as having employee engaged employees.

Jeff Ma
Nice. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if I'm jumping too far ahead. But I'm already curious. I mean, we talk about psychological safety quite a bit, I think it's, it's, it's, the basics of it is even understood, you know, like, widely now, it's not a term that would throw any many people off anymore in the business world. But I think it from my experience, at least, it's often misunderstood, or at least, it's often a buzzword, if you will, kind of like, well, we need to build psychological safety. But ironically, oftentimes, just saying that out loud, kind of removes psychological safety from the room and you know, you sit, you say, this team doesn't have enough psychological safety, and everyone's like, Oh, we better get some psychological safety. They like they all watch what they say. And they are all very careful about not, it's almost like this really strange conundrum. Have you as you talk about it. And as you go around teaching and coaching about it. What is your approach? Like? What is how do you how do you truly build real psychological safety?

Mehmet Baha
In? Yeah, that's a good question. Actually, my experience is a bit different. So the companies or organizations that approached me about psychological safety are the ones who are conscious who are aware, which are conscious aware, in which would like to bring their leaders to the next level. So they're not organizations, which are interested in just emotional intelligence or time management. They're the ones who have already taken all these trainings, radical candor, etc. And they are still having some issues, and they want to go to the next level. And in case, these organizations approached me, what I offer is trainings, it can be an online course, specifically for organizations, self paced online courses, or a learning journey or psychological safety, which includes training, and then coaching, and then again, training they have time to implement. The idea is to learn the concepts in my approach, they learn concepts, inspiring stories, and application. So first, they learn about key components or psychological safety, let's say sense of belonging, reliability, trust, respect, constructive conflict, and then they practice they learn practical insights, they put them in practice, and then we will build upon them. So that's one part of it. The second part is about situational humility. Again, a nice concept, but the main thing is how to put that in practice. The third aspect is around mistakes, how to deal with different mistake types effectively, there is a lot of confusion in the minds of business professionals about mistakes and how to deal with them. And another aspect is about feedback. The way we share feedback plays a crucial role in creating psychological safety. And the last part, my approach includes driving behavior change. This is about the neuroscience or mind, our behaviors, how can we set our behavior and goals? How can how can we be aware or habits, sub optimal habits, which can negatively affect psychological safety? And how to change those habits with more constructive ones. So it's a learning journey, where people learn concepts, put them in practice, and make a difference in their lives.

Jeff Ma
I love the way you just broke that down. That's great. Mohammad?

Mohammad Anwar
Yeah, I have a question. Like this is from my own experience of trying to build psychological safety inside of teams. And everything you said is very valid and applicable. But what has your experience been in creating a psychological safe environment for the leaders themselves? Like I know the leaders are responsible for creating that safe environment for the teams. But where in your approach? What's your concept ideology around psychological safety for leaders with their teams, and does that exist? And how should it exist?

Mehmet Baha
Yeah. So your question is about how can leaders create psychological safety in their teams? Is that correct?

Mohammad Anwar
No. The question is, how can the leaders themselves be psychologically safe with their teams? So they bring their full selves, they can share ideas, they can share mistakes, they can, you know, give feedback and whatnot, or receive feedback, like, how do we make it safe for the leaders as well?

Mehmet Baha
Yeah, that's a good question. So what can be the behaviors of leaders that can contribute to psychological safety in the team?

Mohammad Anwar
Psychological safety in the team, but also for themselves? Because one night, yeah, what am I like, just to give you an example, like the example that Jeff gave, in the pursuit of creating psychological safe environments for our teams, I feel like the leaders tend to lose their own psychological safety. Can you give an example. So for example, if I'm very, I'm willing to share ideas or give feedback or admit mistakes, as a leader, I am afraid to do it in you have worried that I will make it unsafe for others. So I will keep quiet, I won't speak up. I won't share my ideas. Because if I speak up, and I'm the leader, nobody else will speak up because they're like, Oh, the leaders talking so we shouldn't say anything or leader shared an idea. So we shouldn't object to their idea. And so I become overcautious of being myself, and sharing my ideas, sharing my mistakes, as the leader of the team that's creating the is responsible for getting the safe environment. So where does the table turn for the leader to also be psychologically safe, because as a leader, you are a crucial aspect of the team. So where's the psychological safety elements for the leader themselves?

Mehmet Baha
Yeah, so you mentioned a few points. The first one is about vulnerability, and the second one is about mistakes. So in my approach, let's say one of the components or psychological safety is vulnerability. In that topic, the participants learn about the concept of memorability, and then there is an exercise the exercises as leaders, what is one thing you have done recently at work? And what have you learned about it? They share this with each other. And the next step is, okay, so in which team meeting, can you share this with your team members. So they need to write this down and put that in practice. So they need to be role models and what they're learning. In this second point about mistakes is, there is a lot of confusion in the minds of business professionals. I was once in Spain, there was a HR conference, I gave a talk and sit down, sat back and then one lady from Google Switzerland office took the stage, she talked about the innovative culture at Google, and how they learn from mistakes, be grand applause for her. And then one gentleman, Senior Manager at one of the world's biggest telecom companies took this stage. And he started saying, in our company, we do not allow mistakes, we try to do everything correctly. I don't understand why people tried to make mistakes. And at that moment, I didn't know how to react to them, how can this be possible? So this clearly shows the confusion in the minds of many professionals. And coming back to your question about the leaders, how can we be psychologically you know, show the psychological safety behaviors, about mistakes, there are basically four types of mistakes. And once we are as leaders know these mistake types and how to deal with them, then we contribute to psychological safety. These mistake types are unacceptable mistakes, improvable mistakes, complex mistakes, and intelligent mistakes. So the first all of them are created by me inspired by the researcher I mentioned in the last two of them complex, intelligent mistakes are taken directly from the researcher. So, first one unacceptable mistake. Let's say we work in a factory. We are given all the training resources, guidance, help support to put a safe to helmet. Despite all this, we do not put a safety helmet and we suffer an injury. This is an unacceptable mistake. The response to that could be warning or sanctioning. Or another example is let's say we work in a bank. We have access to a big amount of data. We get this data, and we sell this to third parties. Again is gross misconduct. In that case the employee, the contract can be finished as well. Unacceptable mistakes. We as leaders need to ensure that unacceptable mistakes do not happen in the first place. In case they happen, they should happen rarely. The second you say type is improvable mistakes. Let's say you have an unfinished product or service. And you present this to customers to get the feedback. The idea is to learn the shortcomings of the product and service in an effort to improve it, we need to allow improvable mistake. The third mistake type is complex mistakes. They're caused by unknown factors in the known context. A typical example is a superstorm in New York in 1990s is superstorm causes a flood in one New York metro station. For such complex mistakes, we need to analyze them to prevent them. And the fourth mistake type is intelligent mistakes. Intelligent mistakes are about breakthrough products and services, we are trying to enter into a normal territory, we launch this product or service, it's not successful in the market. Still, we get learnings from that. And next time we try to improve it for intelligent mistakes. We need to celebrate them. So coming back to the spring conference, the lady from Google, she was mainly talking about intelligent mistakes that we need to celebrate. And the gentleman from the telecom company, he was mainly talking about unacceptable mistakes. So many leaders and managers,we tend to punish people making mistakes, we tend to punish automatically, people make mistakes. So first, regarding unacceptable mistakes in the first place, we need to create the right conditions so that unacceptable mistakes do not happen in the first place. In case they happen, they should happen rarely. And as leaders, managers, we need to allow improvable complex, intelligent mistakes. And thirdly, we need to celebrate only intelligent mistakes. And coming back to your question about vulnerability and mistakes. people participating in these trainings or learning sessions, they need to understand these and put them in practice otherwise, as you say, they just talk about these concepts without showing the right behaviors. And without being the role model of these behaviors

Mohammad Anwar
make sense. And what about the actual team members themselves. So say, for example, leader does everything they're supposed to do to practice these behaviors to create a psychologically safe environment, but yet the team members in their perception, they are not psychologically safe, despite the demonstration, despite the right behaviors, what is what is the antidote to that type of situation where the leader can be practicing all of these behaviors, or role model all of the psychologically safe behaviors for the team. But the team members themselves, manufacture in their mind that they are fearful, they're scared, they are unable to bring their full self unable to share ideas, because they've manufactured in their head because of some incident from another leader from another company, I will never speak up. Because the last time I did that, I got fired. Because the last time I did that, I was punished. So I don't trust leaders. And I even if this leader saying please share your ideas, doing demonstrating all the examples. In my mind, I am still not going to do it. So what's the antidote to the team to also contribute to the psychological safety because I feel like we emphasize so much on leaders, leaders, leaders, where's the where's the training and the the behaviors for the team members to bring their right behaviors, but also to make sure the other teammates are not being impacted by those teammates and their meters? So how do we how do we address that? What's your thought process?

Mehmet Baha
Yeah, that's the that's a really well thought out question. I have two answers for that one from a more How can I put it more qualitative perspective, and then other one with more focus on on employees? Let's start with the first one qualitative one. This is based on the researcher Amy Edmondson. In her book titled The fearless organization. There are seven statements. I can read the statements to the podcast listeners, and as you hear each statement, please think about your team in rate each statements from strongly disagree to disagree, neutral, agree to strongly agree. So basically from strongly disagree to strongly agree by taking a look at these statements, because in your question, the manager or the leader is doing everything possible to create psychological safety up from the perspective of employees, they do not feel psychologically safe for whatever reason. So by going through these seven statements, when employees answer these statements anonymously, at least, managers can have an understanding about to what extent there is psychological safety in the team. The first statement is, if you make a mistake on this team, it is often held against you. Please rate this either as strongly disagree, disagree, neutral, Agree or strongly agree, if you make a mistake on the same, it is often held against you. Second statement, members of this team are not able to bring up problems and tough issues. Third statement, people on this team sometimes reject others for being different. Fourth statement, it is not safe to take a risk on this team. Fifth statement, it is difficult to ask other members of this team for help. Six statement, members of this team would deliberately act in a way that undermines my efforts. last statement, seventh, working with members of this team, my unique skills, talents are not valued and are not utilized. In case we pass these questions to our team members, and we do an anonymous survey, at least to a certain extent we can get we can get a snapshot of the level of psychological safety in our team. And then we can find ways to improve it. Coming back to the second part of your question. So you said there is a lot of focus on leaders managers to create psychological safety. But what about employees? That's a good point. Employees also play a significant role in creating that the way employees share feedback with each other. The frequency of the feedback, the content of the feedback, let's imagine you're in a team, your team leader or manager in you see that certain employees, the way they share feedback, damages, psychological safety, in the team. Instead of dealing with the issue, maybe the way they share feedback, attacks the person in front of them, let's say instead of saying, Could you please you know, do this task this way, they say, let's say you are very responsible, you don't do your work on time you create problem, this can negatively affect psychological safety. And in that case, leaders managers should help team members, gain their skills, improve their skills are sharing feedback, talking more constructive ways, and to create a psychologically safe workplace. So to make a summary, first, these seven statements, it can give us an indication to see where we need to improve. And the second, yes, employees play a part in that as well. Leaders play a more important part, but employees as well, and leaders should need to be role models or behaviors that contribute to psychological safety, and also have employees show these behaviors, why they're giving feedback, constructive feedback, trying to giving the feedback anymore, in a way without attacking others. So it's both ways, but there is more weight on leaders to create this environment.

Mohammad Anwar
That makes no I totally agree with you. That makes sense. So do you do you have any specific training or expectations off employees that similarly like how you take leaders through your program? Are there any programs that help the employees see their side of the equation and psychological safety?

Mehmet Baha
Yeah.

Mohammad Anwar
Awesome. So I guess the other thing I would ask is, if there is a member like one member on a team that is causing lack of psychological safety, and it's not the leader, it's the employee. And it's one member that's causing the whole team member, the team to lose their psychological safety, but the removing of that team member automatically improves psychological safety. What is your approach to those type of team environments? What would you say that is required? To help improve psychologically, is it okay to pull out that person from the team? Or, you know, what is your thought process?

Mehmet Baha
Yeah, that's a that's also a good question. Recently, I got contacted by one person in the in the US. And he had a similar challenge, he sent me in an email asking me how to deal with the situation exactly like your question. There are a few things you can do. First of all, in order for a person to change, let's say an employee who has a behavior which negatively affects psychological safety, the first question is, to what extent is a person aware or his or her behavior, if that person is not aware, then cannot expect that person to change? In case that person is aware, or we made that person become aware of this sub optimal behavior? The second part is interest. So awareness, and then we go to interest? To what extent is the person interested in changing the behavior? Third one, we are aware we are interested. The third one is knowledge. To what extent does that person have the knowledge to show the right behavior? Fourth, we are aware we're interested in the knowledge. The fourth aspect is ability. To what extent does a person have the ability to put in practice what they learn and then show these right behaviors? The Fifth Aspect is we have awareness, interest knowledge, I will at the fuse aspect is sustainability. How can the person sustain this constructive or this behavior which contributes to psychological safety? Coming back to your question, once we see this behavior from this employee, first we need to make that person become aware of this issue. If the person is not aware, doesn't want to be become aware is not interested, then we need to find a way to take that person out of the team or even we need to get that that person first of all, and chance opportunity to improve. If it's not improving, it's going worse, then we need to find different options. And one of them could be changing the thing or the person, or even even finding a way a different position for the person outside of your organization.

Mohammad Anwar
Got it? No, that makes sense. Appreciate that answer. Thank you.

Mehmet Baha
You're welcome.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, that that's a really interesting point you make though, because when we work with psychological safety as well, one of the biggest kind of divides, you can't like you mentioned earlier that many of your clientele or many of the people you work with, and coach with are already at a step, a phase where they're like, No, we're working on psychological safety, we know we need this. A lot of the people we work with are just gonna come times come across, lack the awareness first and foremost, and self the self awareness, right. And psychological safety, whether you're aware of it or not exists, and the problems are there, whether and sometimes the biggest problem is that, you know, leaders don't even realize that they're causing it, or member team members don't realize they're causing it, that there's psychological safety issues, but it's not being called that, in fact, you know, when you just when you hear about typical people who complain about work, or don't like their boss, or don't like their work around and half the time, a lot of the stories they'll tell you are tied to lack of psychological safety that's being created. What is I guess? Do you have a stories or approaches towards just how to, like, properly, you know, approach those situations or build that awareness besides just you know, because a lot of leaders don't, especially higher, the higher up you go as a leader, the less you're able to just hear, hey, you're being a jerk, or hey, you know, hey, you're creating a terrible work environment for people like they're not, they're not accepting of that, of that feedback. How do you build that awareness or self?

Mehmet Baha
Yeah, it's two ways that I can answer that we sent. I was watching at global Pitzer Drucker forum. One expert, I think he's from California, is a worldwide known expert, I think in strategy. I think his name is Sherief Tabrizi. I think he he collaborates with Stanford. He works with CEOs and he said that every time he works with a senior manager, the first question he asked these, to what extent are you open to a change improve yourself? And he says in case his new manager says you No, he says, okay, then we cannot work because if you want to work with me, you need to open to get feedback, and improve and I am going to put the mirror so that you can become more aware of all your actions. So that's the first question is starts to work with it any C level. So we'll set the stage right in the beginning. Second, coming back to your question, let's say senior managers, maybe they're not aware, one of the things that I do is I ask them questions, let's say, senior manager says in this situation, I just put my fist on the table, and I give them a reply in a very firm manner. And then I sent him Okay, so what's the impact of that on employees? And ask him questions, so that the person at least can try to put themselves in the shoes of others. Okay, so when you reply in that way, what was the reaction? Everyone was silent? Okay. What do you think? Does this silence show to you? And what do you think about the level of fear or employees? And what can you do next time to improve it? So asking, sometimes these painful questions maybe they don't want to hear, but you know, it gives them a chance, at least to try these mirror moments. What I also do the third aspect, I show them videos, both inspiring stories from all around the world about all leaders who create psychological safety, from a restaurant in Italy, to an animation studio in the US. And I also show them videos about big f*** ups, or leaders. And then they they see these short videos one minute, and my question to them is, what do you think is the impact of this attitude on employees? In they answer the question, so it's a way for them kinda to make them and become aware, there is a case in the US, it was in the beginning of COVID, one medical doctor expressed his concerns about the lack of protective gear in one hospital. He was saying that we need protective gear, it's beginning of COVID. Because he expressed his concerns, he was fired. He was so pissed, he went to the media, and started to talk with news agencies in the US, he started writing on the social media. This is a typical case of lack of psychological safety in the workplace. A person experiences his or her concerns, and then they're fired. They watch this video. And the question is, what's the impact of this on employees? So there are different ways to kind of put that mirror to leaders to make it to summarize it first, set it set the expectations right in the beginning, if you are wanting work, you know, you need to change your perspective, if you're not willing to change, it's okay, then we don't work. Second, I'll send questions to the deep, so that they can try to understand the impact of the behavior and others. And third, put them also, as well as inspiring stories. Stories are leaders who do not create psychological safety. There are many examples I can from this hospital, to different organizations as well, so that they can also see the impact of the behavior and how it negatively affects employees and the success of their organization.

Mohammad Anwar
Like that. Very clear. I appreciate very much.

Mehmet Baha
Welcome.

Jeff Ma
Well, I feel like there's, I just need to we need to schedule a different session, you know, maybe off of a podcast so we can just, you know, further dive and we can need your help need your coaching. But today, so we're running low on time. And I wanted to save a little bit of time for you to talk a little bit about Solution Folder, or anything that you have going on as well. So we can make sure that listeners can benefit from that as well. Do you have anything you'd like to share or plug in this space?

Mehmet Baha
Here two things I can share. The first one listeners who would like to get practical insights, ideas to improve psychological safety, you can visit solutionfolder.com Solution folder.comm/free-resources. There you can get free resources solution folder.com/free-resources. And you can also check out my new book, The playbook for engaged employees. It's on Amazon.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. Be sure to check that out. Yeah, I think what I got you know, psychological safety is again, something that in our line of work we also talk about quite a bit. Our book has a chapter on section on it as well. But I love I love the way you've broken it down. I love the way you've really broken out the pieces and the steps that it takes to really tackle these issues. And it's really easy to follow. So just even the store conversation has given me a lot of ideas and really appreciate you coming on the show today and sharing all those things with us Baha.

Mohammad Anwar
It was my pleasure, Jeff and my Mohammad. I also learned a lot from your questions. Yeah, it was it goes both ways.

No worries. No, we appreciated the conversation. I enjoyed it.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, I forgot to warn you about Mohammad. He's he that's the type of questions Yes. sorry.

Mehmet Baha
Questions. It's good.

Mohammad Anwar
Thank awesome.

Mehmet Baha
We need more people like you Mohammad

Mohammad Anwar
Thank you and more people like Baha.

Jeff Ma
It's just warm and fuzzy in here. Thank you to our listeners. If you want to hear more tough questions from Mohammad or more guests like Baha please do subscribe to the podcast and tell a friend check out our book love as a business strategy, also on Amazon. But also, of course, check out Baha's Playbook for Engaged Employees while you're at it. So with that, thank you. Thank you, Mohammad Thank you, everybody for this time that you spent together, and we hope to see you next week.