Jeff Ma  
Hey folks, if you follow the show or you've read the book, you've probably heard of Seneca Leaders, a unique one day experience that helps people transform mindsets and shape new behaviors. I'm so proud to host the facilitate these sessions alongside my co authors and colleagues. And I would really love for you to come and join us learn more about it by visiting senecaleaders.com. And now on with the show.

Darrin Tulley  
I could have said no, I'm fine. I'm a good leader. I'm a good human. I recognize that I had these unconscious biases that were like sitting there right there that became top priority like all of a sudden, this unconscious shortcoming that being so conscious that I had to do something about it.

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories from real people about real businesses and real stories. My guest today is Darren Tolley, an accomplished financial services executive motivational speaker, the author of Live your possible and host of the Live your possible podcast. Darren has a passion for transforming business performance through positive change with a pragmatic, data informed, empathetic and servant leadership style. He's known for his remarkable ability to build and lead high performing teams that exceed customer and shareholder expectations, while also sparring authentic team first culture. Then, how are you today? What's going on in?

Darrin Tulley  
Hey, thanks for having me, Jeff. I'm excited to be here doing great. Excited to chat about love and a bunch of other fun topics.

Jeff Ma  
I love it. I almost misread I misread your title, love your possible, naturally just the L, the V and the E. But I love everything that Ignite Happy, Live your possible all these things they aligned so well, which always makes for interesting, interesting conversation because I know you're going to come from a slightly different angle a slightly different perspective. I can't wait to dive in. wait to dive into that today.

Darrin Tulley  
Yeah, the goal is I guess we all want to love are possible too. So I like the like the connection. And that goes a natural and natural slip.

Jeff Ma  
Look at this synergy coming in right away. Let me start with you, though. Let me start with just Darrin, what is your? What is your story that brought you to like what you're doing today is a passion driven thing. So what is your where did this passion come from? What brought you to this point?

Speaker 2  
Well, you know, I feel like I've had it my whole life. And you know, the way I started in my early days. And then then I woke up about seven years ago. And I realized that wasn't being that person that wasn't being my authentic self that I came into this world with. And I was actually at a diversity and inclusion event where I actually had an awakening, I wasn't being the leader. I thought it was that wasn't the person or human being he talked about humanity and love and the workplace. I wasn't giving it I was focusing on results, essentially pushing people away. And people that had differences in myself and I had an awakening where I needed to open my eyes open my heart in a different way. And I needed to change my purpose I needed to be intentional. And through that, through that journey. I also had a light up moment where I saw something really special with my daughter. And it was it was this logo actually the logo of my book, the logo of my podcast is one I'd smile. And it was on the back of a watermelon, Italian icelid. And this Italian icelid was something that my my daughter had put to the side of the table. She was having this Italian ice because she was enjoying a treat after doing her homework really well. Which sounds silly. Yeah, what ended up being this most incredible moment, turned turn the kid inside of me to come out and shine, my daughter was shining, I was shining because what happened is this lid, this Italian icelid had this one eyed smile on the back of it. And I was looking for differences in the world as accepting my own silliness. And when we saw this, we both kind of blew up with joy. And that's what sparked my journey. This is combination of I had to come to this realization I wasn't living my best life and I realized seeing this girl light up and then I lit up that I need to do better in the world. I need to bring more joy more intentionally from within me and then also connected to other folks in my life no matter where they're from or what they look like. And I started to write some stories around this. And I put a business plan together and ended up being a book Get Started started, I started this company called Ignite happy. And the last six, seven years have been so amazing, so transformative. And the connections that have been making that are rooted in joy and inclusion and love are really opening up possibilities for me and everybody around me.

Jeff Ma  
I, I find that story so important. To me personally, I think I talk about love so much. And I talk about love and business and work and all the benefits, all the team chemistry and high performance and all these things. And I don't feel like I talk enough about just joy about this side effect of of love. That's just happiness. I think that's, that should be the first thing on my bullet list. And somehow I'm always stuck in the weeds of how it'll help the business and leaders and they're all important. But I love this reminder. Man, I love that. Joy. I mean, let's not forget about that. Right?

Speaker 2  
Yeah, it's it's really the core, I feel like it's one of those things is I realized is I was welcoming the world in. And my purpose at the time was to bring out the best in people all around me. And I would do that with levels of love and genuine interest in care yet I was doing that for people that were in a bubble like me, and similar to me. So I kind of talked about this as a bubble of sameness. And when I was going through this immersion event, I recognized that I wasn't aware of the justices and the things that were going on the world the way I should. And I wasn't carrying or wasn't, maybe I was just ignorant to what was happening, Jeff, and it was it was terrifying. And I had shame for myself not recognizing what was going on. And I needed to make a change. And what I realized is that I needed to change my purpose to really look at the light that's inside of all because I believe there's a beautiful light inside of all of us, you know what's filled in that light. It is happiness. It is love. It is like wonderment. It's like the childlike ways that are inside all of us that are waiting to come out and unleash. And that's, that's what happened when I went through this journey is that I could have said, No, I'm fine. I'm a good leader. I'm a good human, I recognize that I had these unconscious biases that were like sitting there right there that became top priority, like all of a sudden, this unconscious shortcoming and have been so conscious that I had to do something about it. And I could have hidden behind self preservation. Or I could have said, Oh, I don't want to give up what I have as far as opportunities. But I had a greater love for what was in front of me, the people that were in front of me, the people that I was pushing away possibilities, I was pushing away joy and possibilities for other people that I needed to change. And I did. And that's what sparked this whole journey. And you know, this logo, this one-eyed smile represents so many things represents joy and happiness, as you could see, but also is pretty unique. It's a unique smiles, while it's a one eyed smile. And we're all unique. We're all different. And this reminds me to make sure we're all looking at each other. And embracing and accepting our own differences in the practice of other people, when we do that we could truly look at the light is inside of all of us waiting to unleash and actually try to help make it brighter when we do that. That to me is having love and genuine care for other human beings. That's humanity at work.

Jeff Ma  
I love that. And I want to help the audience connect a little bit. What does it mean? When you say live your possible like more specifically, what is the possible what is my possible what is your possible,

Darrin Tulley  
it's your possible is different than my possible? It just like how we would define happiness or what love looks like all these things are our own definitions. It starts with each of us. And that when I talk about labor possible, it's really connecting happiness, and inclusion, and embracing, embracing love that's around our world. Because I have there's actually in my book, there's actually eight, eight steps that one could take, that is actually spelled out possible. And it's the steps of really connecting with a higher purpose. And having an open mind and going through the daily actions to actually reconnect back into your authentic self. And as you take these steps, you're not changing into someone else or what someone's telling you to be. You're actually defining what those possibilities look like as you go forward. And what happens is, the experiences that I had and other people share with me is that you connect to something bigger than you you invite the world in to things that are outside of yourself knowing that you have trust and you have love within. And as you do that, guess what happens? You start connecting, things start popping, you start to see words you never thought of you start to see things that you never thought were possible things you dreamt up not become reality. Those are the possibilities that are sitting right in front of us waiting to be bounds. It's happening with folks that actually take the steps seriously, and allow the silliness to come in at times to allow our childlike ways and wonderment to fill us up, you know, as an example, might be silly, or what have you, but this one, I'd smile that we're talking about a little bit. I see that in the world all over the place. I see it in nature, I see in the sky, I see it on the beach, people are sending me pictures, say, Hey, I found this and thought of you. And I said, well, would it make you feel and everybody says to me, they lit up, they actually stopped and paused for a minute, they started to see that there is a connection in the world that is greater than themselves. When they start to do that, they start to get on this path of possibilities that will be filled with whatever it is that's important to them. It For Me, For me is helping to bring out the joy in other people. For me, it's making connections with friends that I never thought I would have had had, and I have my awakening and to get through and break through some of the things that are holding me back. And it brings so much joy and love to me, it fills me up.

Jeff Ma  
So is the journey more about discovering your possible and what that looks like?

Darrin Tulley  
It is exactly the journey is exactly it is the discovery and actually welcoming what the findings are, some of those are going to be silly. Some of those are going to be tough to see or tough, tough to receive, maybe you have to be vulnerable, to change something that you believed in or something that you're doing. So these things are discoveries, these, these are elements of inclusion that were willing to, to break down. So as I think about this, I always refer to this as open minded curiosity, we're open minded to see different things. When we're not guess what, there's no new discoveries to be had. You know, once we're curious and open minded, then we're actually willing to take in new perspectives. And then those discoveries turn into, I don't know, innovations, that turns into possibilities, it turns into new job opportunities, it turns into a willingness to step in and help out others rather than just really try to preserve my own self being or my own workload. You know, if you bring that to the workplace, or if you're doing something for the greater good, that means you're doing something with the team, not just for your own stuff. And there's a lot of applications that can be leveraged. And people will become I feel become to see more clearly, it just things open up things are here and there right in front of us. But if we don't take the steps or the actions or make the connections, we lose sight of those discoveries.

Jeff Ma  
I think in the world that we currently operate in, we've given labels to a lot of things. And you know, DEI, D&I, inclusion in general, it has become a very proper noun, it's become something that is when you say it, it means very many different things to many different people. And I'm curious, you brought up inclusion quite a bit in your summary. So how much of living your possible is in overcoming bias and inclusion? And how much of it is outside of that are in addition to that, I feel like you had your discovery at a D&I believe it's at a DNI, conference or seminar and, and so is, is this centered around lessons in inclusion? Or is there more to it or walk me through that a little bit?

Darrin Tulley  
I'd say it's rooted in inclusion. Absolutely. I don't allow folks to run away from what they might define inclusion might be because of what they've heard, or what people have said. So I appreciate you calling that out. Because, to me, inclusion is an action. And it's a mindset. And it's not a it's not about taking away with something you might have is actually making something better, and brought broader. And that's what this journey is all about. It's about expanding our mindset, and our willingness to accept new things, accepting new different, you know, new findings or discoveries as it relates to differences or putting two things together at the intersection of something amazing, which is something that frosh Johansson did in his book, that Medicare effect, he you know, it's an amazing book, but that's what he talks about, is finding these unexpected surprises at the, at the middle of these two different things. And it's it's really taking those steps to be open minded enough and curious enough to know that hey, there's something really cool that could happen, that can be invented, or that it can be a better person. And it's it's just really incredible what companies are doing when they do that, you know, you sprinkle in empathy, you sprinkle in actually a care or a level of love with other human beings. That's what this is all about. This is about giving. I feel like this is about giving humanity a chance where we actually get personal growth we're it's a two way street, we all benefit. I think a lot of people think inclusion means I gotta give up something, you know, instead of, you know, instead of like, I can Well follow fear of losing out, you should be fearful of what you really are missing out on. When I was when I was avoiding inclusion and welcoming differences in all these things, I was missing out on amazing possibilities that I was missing out on happiness levels I'd never thought were even possible. I was missing out on meeting people in this world all over the world. I was talking with a gentleman out in Denmark this morning. And we were talking about happiness at work over and over in those countries. It's fascinating. Why? Because I'm eager to learn I'm eager to get it right. Not be right. And it's it's one of those things. It's a mindset. It's a possible mindset when we actually open up, so does our world.

Jeff Ma  
Is it fair to say that your approach takes inclusion, which often is viewed on paper, as something you do for others, and flipping on its side and saying, Hey, bye, include including and doing the having the act of inclusion, you are actually opening up your world and expanding your possibilities through it's almost a selfish thing? And in a good way?

Speaker 2  
Yeah, well said, you know it when you say selfish, it's like, it's an important thing for us to recognize where we're possibilities live, call it, you know, happiness and love and all those components, right? We're trying to make ourselves better when when we trust ourselves. With that, we can actually start to invite the world differently, we can actually trust the world differently. Exactly. You hit the right word is expansive, its expansive. So if we're here, and for me, I had to have this awakening at this immersion event, this diversity inclusion event where I recognize I was I was in this bubble, and it popped, it burst and I thought the air I was breathing was gone, I was gonna suffocate, I was gonna be found out. And what I realized at that event is it actually expanded, the bubble expanded allowed me to put my arm around the world in a different way. Most importantly, though, the people that were at that event that I spoke to that day, the third, that was a four day event, on the third day actually came in crying and upset, really sharing my pain, not looking for sympathy. Yeah, just this route was really trying to share that was trying to commit differently in the world. And what I noticed is that the people that I was pushing back actually held me up that day. It was the most powerful moment I've ever felt in my life. And it was my commitment to say, I'm going to continue expanding. And the irony of this one, eyed smile. If you'd look at it, and maybe turn it up, turn it this way, a little bit. Because there's a lot of meanings for this one-eyed smile, as you can imagine, at this point, right? We're in that center, where the eye of that smile where the eye of possibilities. And if you look at the smile, that's really an expansion of the world, you're putting yourself out there, you're reaching yourself out there, you're bringing people in, you're putting your armor out there with love with was saying I don't have it just right. I want to help you be put on an equal playing field or I want to help you have amazing results, or I want to help you get through this dark time. When we do that, when we give to others, we get so much back in return. So your word and use of selfishness is is good. Yeah, welcomes in the way that we need to put ourselves out there and we will get paid back. It's kind of up to whole phrase as expect what you get what you get from putting yourself out there in a certain way expect what you reflect is the line. So when I put myself out there with joy, I guess what happens? Most of the time I get joy back not all the time. This isn't a perfect world, you know, there's darkness, and there's days where people are rude to me and I overcome it. And I know that I can't because I have because it's built within within me based on the steps I've taken based on the trust I have in myself and in the world. Based on the fact that I don't need to have every answer. I was told I was supposed to have every answer up until about seven years ago, right? I was told as a leader I need to have all the answers I can't bring people in to help me out. Gotta I couldn't be I couldn't have been further from the truth even though I was having honest success. But I think was at the expense of other people.

Jeff Ma  
I think I use the term selfish liberally. But that's because I view it as as not a bad thing. I think that the world if we're honest, is selfish. And humans can be by nature, not in a terrible evil way. But the what's in it for me, is always going to be a question that crosses our minds. And so I think it's important. I think it's important, especially for the skeptics for the for the blind, and the kind of the people who have not seen past bias to to be able to have a what's in it for me to get started, right.

Darrin Tulley  
Yeah, that's that's exactly spot on. And I have coached to this a bit with some some companies on thinking about mentorship and Ally ship programs in a slightly different way. We're encouraging mentors, and allies to step into the conversation differently. to not feel like you It's a one way street where they're just kind of giving you advice and telling people what to do. It's the opposite of that. It's actually, it's a two way street, where you go in both as mentees, you're going to learn from each other. And when we do that, there's actually a different level of relationship and love that comes out of that if you're allowed if you're allowed or willing to do that. And of course, we talked about love in a way that we actually care for humans in a more unique, special way with heart serving with heart. And when we step into that conversation that way, anybody that wants to do that, as a mentor, as an ally, as a sponsor, whatever label you want to give it, if you do it this way, I promise you, you're going to come out stronger, you're going to be different in the eyes of many people, including yourself. So it is selfish, because when we actually get a tie into who we really are authentically, and who we can be, the world lights up in a different way. And sort of the people around you, because we make it safe for others to do the same, we make it safe for others to, to come out as our best self, maybe people will show up at work as their full self, or at least a version of their full self. Because a lot of things I had heard people were actually changing the way they are, maybe it's their hair, maybe it's their outfits, maybe it's their speech, just to fit in at work, that doesn't work for people to bring their full selves, people need to be accepted for who they are. And we have to embrace our differences starting with our own. When we do that we make it safe for everybody else to be who they are. And that's where discovery happens. That's where amazing outcomes actually transpire in the workplace. This is where we start to find transcendent Joy wherever we are, and it happens to be at work even better.

Jeff Ma  
I want to move us into a let's just call it practical space. And I know you mentioned eight things acronyms into possible, you don't have to go over all of them. But I'm curious if you can paint the picture for me of what this tangibly looks like to follow the steps practice living your possible in the way that you outline like what is that? What kind of actions does that really look like? Maybe maybe highlight a few steps or a part of the journey?

Speaker 2  
Yeah, that sounds great. You know, the, I think the first few are probably the most critical to get going like anything, right? It's the first step you take, and the small steps that you take. And you know, the first two elements of the acronym possible. The first first one is purpose driven beliefs. And the second one is open minded curiosity. So purpose driven believes is really connected with something that's bigger than yourself, what is your purpose? Maybe it's one word. Maybe the words love, like last year, my word of the year was love. How do you connect with that word? How do you connect with what you do, the decisions you make. And then along with that, as what are the inviting components of that. So if you have one word, or it's a statement, like my statement, my purpose driven belief statement is, I want to, I want to enlighten people to the light that's inside of all of us. So they can live their possible. And they can be put on an equal playing field. So as I'm saying that and doing that every day, I'm anybody in the world in. I'm like, I look into you, Jeff to say you have this amazing light and everything you're doing, I can see it, I can feel it. I want to hear more, I want to see more. And if we go into those conversations, we move past the things that stopped us in the past, we have a greater purpose, we have greater meaning. And if we do that, with our second step, we practice actions about being open minded and curious to say I don't have a just right, I need to learn from Jeff, I need to hear more where he comes from what lights him up, I need to be curious, because I'm going to take something away from this, I'm going to be better I'm going to walk away in a different way, in the following steps are really some other actionable steps like the the third is around skill sets. And the fourth is about really strong resilience. So as we PCs together, we actually practice and reinforce components that will allow us to live our, you know, our purpose, and also to be more open minded. So reinforcing it, making it stronger. So as we're stronger, we're able to be more resilient. And then we're able to imagine in be brave, whether our authenticity where the next couple of steps, and then we make connections, we link connections, and endless pop possibilities start popping everywhere. Because we've made that connection in leap from a bigger purpose. We're open minded, and we're doing actions and developing skills along the way, that we're gonna find joyful possibilities wherever we are. And it starts with those first few steps in our works, if we're genuinely caring about what we're doing, and when we're doing this as part of our day, this isn't meant to be additional work like oh my god, here's, Darrin has asked me to do more work. No. In the book, there's actually over 100 Practice actions for folks to think about, you probably only need to do five to seven of these to feel the change. We're talking about it practicing these as part of your day. You know, part of your day, like for example to say hey, I this one word, purpose, word love. All that is is the action is let me connect to that throughout my day. How do I use that word more effectively, more intentionally, more purposely? And be aware of it and guess what happens? ends up being a part of who you are. And it brings out your authentic way of living, is that everything follows it keeps building and building and building until you start to see things popping all around you.

Jeff Ma  
It makes a heck of a lot of sense to me hearing you say all that. And, you know, it moves me a lot. I want to address though, I guess some people that I've met in my journey, I'm curious how you address starting from step one. When you ask people to look for a higher purpose, and they can't come up with anything beyond make money for them amass wealth or whatever, you know, idea that I have around that. How do you? Is that good enough? How do you move people? Through that beyond that? In this journey, that seems like it's important to find that thing bigger than yourself. And peep some people struggle with that, like I what you said resonated deeply with me. But not everybody is in that part of the journey?

Darrin Tulley  
Yeah, it's true. There's so many people I talked with there. It's real results minded. I guess, mindset or results focused mindset, I should say. And a lot of folks, I just I just ask questions, I go back to the open minded curiosity. Step, I'm looking for that light this side, this other person, I know this person's human. I got taught to make money and I needed to drive in providing for my family to yet it's not all about money, something that I've had to learn over time. There's something bigger than that. So it's through inquiry, I'll ask I'll ask people different questions. I'll ask questions like, Where do you get joy from? What brings you happiness? What lights you up? What gets you really pumped up and excited? You know, what are you passionate about? You know, what is it good day look like? More often than not, there's a couple of buzzwords that come out from there. Usually, it's human related. It could be love, or it could be, you know, could be certain outcomes. Yet outcomes, as you probably know, and happiness studies, outcomes only give us about 10% of our happiness that's really lit up from within, more than half of our happiness comes from the steps we actually take. Because you always hear the phrase, hey, find joy in the journey. And he was like, Yeah, whatever. But that's where that comes from. Because it's actually finding the love and in the work we do that actually lights us up every single day. So that's what I try to get at is say, What's lighting you up during the journey, because that's what you need to do more. Because the things that you probably want, in addition to you, if you're a company, you want to have business outcomes, because I get a lot of skepticism about well, I need to get results, and I need to get them now. And I said, Okay, I could talk to you about different use cases yet. What are your values? What are the values of your people? Do you live them? Are they just up on a wall or website? Do you take these seriously? Like, these are the questions I'm asking. And generally a lot of leaders are saying I don't share, I'm not sure how to tie those together. It's like are you making decisions or you're living by These are their stories that support these things? In generally, this is the type of work we're leaders that they step in. And they ask for help from their people. And they do that with empathy and care to say, Listen, we want to let's just make up a value. Let's just say we want to be good, really good at inclusive inclusiveness. So then the work that's done is intentional, and thoughtful with a greater with a greater purpose in mind. You're inviting your teams in. And when people do that, amazing work happens. There's more energy, there's better cultural awareness, there's better sharing, there's guess what discoveries and innovation. That's what's happening when companies actually dive into this work, too. And there are people that I'm talking with different leaders, that I would say over the course of the last five to six years initially, were like, I don't even know where to begin with inclusion. I don't even know where to begin with taking care of my people the way you're talking about with with servant leadership. I do, I would say the pandemic has helped open eyes a little bit. And unfortunately, some of the injustices that have happened in our world have also opened some eyes. And I'm trying to help people see when they're ready, said that they're possible and so is our organization to stepping in differently.

Jeff Ma  
That's such a powerful, and in some ways, audacious kind of mission and statement and I love it. I'm here for it. I feel like this is something that is honestly very hard. I feel like I hear you. And as much as I love it, I see also how much time and really investment, not time investment but like time as in duration of change for a mindset and effort as in intentionality and really commitment to doing something different. And you know, I think that's what the world needs. I think we need missions and statements and objectives like this for the world to really move the needle in a new direction.

Darrin Tulley  
I, I couldn't agree with you more. And it is an effort. Every change has to happen on its own. And if you're intentional about it, and if it's part of your every day, does it feel like work? If you're actually being the human being that you are, it should be easy. It should be granted. I know, it's that because I've been going through this journey myself. And I have to constantly remind myself about doing the work and the commitment like I, I know it's silly, but I have this pink pen that I committed to using the rest of my life coming out of that diversity and inclusion of in this, like, which I have you ever seen, like a white male leader, if you will use a pink pen, and I've been in board meetings, executive meetings, I send thank you notes, they sign love letters, with this pen out. Because why? Because I want to be different to make a difference. And it's intentional, to some of my sound corny yet, it's my reminder, every single day, I gotta live out my purpose, because there's a greater, there's a greater need out there than myself. And when I do that I yeah, I benefit. Yet I see other people light up when other people light up, I see other things happening with different companies and different individuals. And it just excites me to do more and more and more all the time. And it takes effort. And you know, I would I would ask the listener and say, Hey, is it worth taking 1% of your day to change the rest of your life. So we're talking about practicing 15 minutes a day to start. That'll change the rest of your life, I promise you. If you do at least 15 minutes, you won't even realize this, it'll end up being who you are. So it'll become subconscious in a good way. You'll get to rewire your habits, you'll actually welcome happiness and joy in a different way. You'll see this one eyed smile in the world and you'll laugh. Maybe you'll swear at it at first, but then you'll laugh to Say you saw it. It's there. Because it's unique. It's you It's you looking out into the world saying yes, I accept my uniqueness. Yes, I accept my joy that I'm gonna bring out the world because we have, we often hide our joy and happiness, because we're afraid that we're going to lose it, or we're afraid to show that we have it because others don't. We start we have to stop being afraid of all of this. And it takes courage and vulnerability to take these steps. If we want to change the world, we got to do it together. But we got to start from within. And then when we connect the dots, it's pretty incredible what can and will happen.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. Food for thought. And Darrin, I really appreciate you coming on today and sharing your story. It's incredible mission, but just really inspiring me and the listeners. So thank you so much for that time.

Darrin Tulley  
Yeah, thanks for having me, Jeff. I appreciate what you're doing.

Jeff Ma  
And listeners, if you want to hear the rest of the acronym, understand more about this, be sure to check out the Live your possible book that Darrin has written. And it's an incredible resource. It's got spaces built in there. And you've put into this book that like basically worksheets and activities and things that they can really actively it's not a sit and read, but also work on yourself while you go book. And I think that's incredible. And it's such an invaluable resource for people. So I hope people get a chance to check that out. Live your possible you can find that available. Where you find books, I assume. For the rest of us, thank you to everybody for tuning in as well check out our book Love as a business strategy. If you haven't, I don't know why you're here. If you haven't, go check that out. Subscribe rate, the podcast, leave reviews for both Dan's book and my book wherever you can let us know what you think. And you know, I'll leave with kind of a high note. I think Darrin you you've really inspired me to kind of rethink as much as I constantly rethink. I think it's a great shot in the arm to, to kind of go and find out more of my possible because I feel like I'm actually lacking in that after hearing you in this conversation. So you've inspired me today. I appreciate that.

Darrin Tulley  
You're welcome. And thanks again for having me. I really appreciate it.

Jeff Ma  
Awesome. So thanks, everybody, and we will see you all next week.