Noah Pusey  
The Gen Z and the millennial workforce comprises over 60% of the domestic workforce. If you tell a millennial or a Gen Z or that they did something wrong at their annual review, and they're on on November 17, they did something wrong in March, you'll be lucky if that if that employee comes back to work for you. They'll they'll look at you cross eyed and think, What do you mean? Like what do you what do you do? And why don't you give me that information back in March? Because maybe I didn't do it wrong in March. Maybe I did it differently than you would have done it. And I can explain to you in March why I did it that way. When you're asking me in November why I did it, I can't remember.

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business where we want to tackle topics that most business leaders tend to shy away from. We believe that humanity loves to be at the center of every successful business. As always, I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I want to have those conversations with real people and hear those real stories about the real world and real businesses. And my guest today is Noah Pusey. Noah is the president and CEO of Ripple analytics. It's a cloud-based talent assessment platform that replaces the annual review with timely, objective and actionable peer to peer data. And we want to dive into that for sure, today. A little bit more about Noah. He received his bachelor's in arts from Boston College and his Juris Doctor from Brooklyn Law School. He lives outside Boston as the loving dad to two children, Jackson and Avery and enjoys golf, skiing, hiking and building companies—all similar things. Noah was born and raised in a small farm in Southern Vermont, where his parents and sister still live. And as I've recently known, he's also hosting Thanksgiving. This has been recorded before, just before Thanksgiving for 31 or 36 people.

Noah Pusey  
Yeah, what including us that 38 I think, yeah. And so that's

Jeff Ma  
on his mind, in case you're wondering why he's so stressed out this entire interview. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Of course. No, welcome. Welcome to the show. How are you?

Noah Pusey  
I'm great. Thanks for having me, Jeff, really a pleasure to be on your podcast and share some stories insights and, and and banter about what we both love to do.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. And I guess where I like to start generally, on a very personal level is is just centered around you. What is your passion?

Noah Pusey  
That's, I mean, it's a great question I could go on forever. But my passion is really helping people. You know, I mean, I was on, I was interviewed, it seems like six months ago, but during COVID, it's sort of been like, it could have been a year and a half ago. Could have been two months ago. But I was previously interviewed. And they asked me, what is the what is your definition of success and leadership. And I think it's easy to, to my definition of success and leadership is have I helped people become better people. And I think that's, I mean, I know you buy into this, because it's your, your book, it's your whole mentality. But, you know, at the end of the day, people, your employees are people. And if I'm leading someone, and I can help them become stronger, individually, then the likelihood is more than likely that they're going to be better employees, better co workers and all that kind of stuff. So what drives my passion is Ripple. I mean, what we what we decided to do, Derrick Hedges, and I co founded the company back in 2014. And what we wanted to do is really have an impact on the day to day, week to week, month to month, experiences that employees have in in the workplace and make it a stronger, better, more positive experience for them. They carry that with them throughout their their lives, really, you know, if I can make people feel better or more informed about how they interact with their co-human beings then that I've succeeded.

Jeff Ma  
No have Have you always had this passion or this vision? Or is it something that you gained at some point along the way,

Noah Pusey  
I think, to a to a, to varying degrees. I mean, I was I'd love to describe myself as a recovering lawyer. I still practice on the side but you know, law as jaded as it can be, is really is the the pinnacle, trying to help people in concept, maybe not an application, but you've been wrong, you're trying to make that right. In transactional law, if you're if you want to buy and my client wants to sell, then those are we should be able to do that and help both the person that wants to buy or the company wants to buy and the company or person that wants to sell. It's become like a lot of organizations, a lot of industries. Not so simple. But yeah, I think I think I've tried in my life pursuit to help people. Not always successful, but that's, that's the goal.

Jeff Ma  
All right, so tell me a little bit about Ripple Analytics. I know I gave a high level cloud based talent assessment platform. But what what, give me the elevator pitch on what, what makes it unique.

Noah Pusey  
Everyone hates the annual review. And for younger generations, the annual review 60% of companies still do it. I grew up on the annual review, every year, you would sit with your boss, your manager, your leader, and you would talk about the last 12 months, and what you did right what you did wrong, and everything in between. And when Derek and I co founded the company, we knew that that was a flawed process. Because if you're only gaining information or having meaningful discussions once a year, and you should celebrate your birthday, once a year, you should pay your taxes once a year, you shouldn't be having meaningful discussions in anything in personal life or professional life once a year. So it's really saw two problems with the annual review. And it's in the wording annual meetings once a month, once a year, and then review, it's an it's in the rearview mirror, it's how it's already happened. So we wanted to do with ripple is, is really change that change the approach to looking at the importance of ongoing timely communication in developing better employees and managing better employees. And really assessing how they can be better employees and then putting them in positions to succeed. So when we founded ripple, we worked with an IO psychologist to create these surveys that gathered data along core personality traits. And then we put people people who have stronger personality traits on one hand, put them in positions where they can utilize those strengths versus the annual review, which was which was almost always really a reflection of the of the, of the profitability or the financial success of a company. In law, it was if you if a law firm was making money, then everyone was great if the law firm went through some some bumpy times, and everyone had to work harder. Most of the people involved in the company don't have an impact on the day to day profitability of a company that's usually on a bigger, larger leadership model. And so when I had to sit and speak with some of the attorneys that worked under me, and tell them, basically, if the if we were up financially, then they were great. If they if we were down financially, they had to work harder, it's just a it's a check the box compliance exercise is that a meaningful process that can really move the culture strengthen the culture of any company,

Jeff Ma  
is that the bridge that took you from law to something like ripple,

Unknown Speaker  
so so to get a little more personal Derrick was was diagnosed with stage four cancer and actually eventually lost his battle in April of 2015. And when he knew he had terminal cancer, he, he and I started spitballing, in early 2014, about just how we could make the workplace a better place to work. And he was SVP of strategy at a fortune 500. Company. And he wanted to leave sort of a legacy in terms of his impact on businesses in general, not just one specific space. And he saw me and as a as a, as a tool to one industry, the law, the legal industry, which I don't think there's a industry that could benefit more than what we're doing at Ripple in terms of just taking away the almighty billable hour and seeing that there's something other than a billing machine with your people. But yeah, that that was you know, originally I was going to he was in healthcare, so he was gonna hit healthcare, I was gonna hit legal and we were going to kind of branch out from there. But yeah, it was also I think, personally. I had recently gone through a divorce. And I think I was pivoting like a lot of people do when they have life changing moments. Where are you thoroughly happy with what you're doing. I was a good attorney. I had job security, I was making money, I just didn't necessarily feel fulfilled. And so when Derek and I started talking and kind of mapping out what we wanted to do, and by the way, we started researching what people disliked about their employment experience. And on the top of everyone's list was the annual review because it's this anxiety ridden, not really beneficial to anybody, and I did them and receive them and it wasn't any fun giving and it wasn't really any fun receiving because when you're receiving it, it's all you do is you're listening to your manager boss, waiting for the numbers, because almost always the annual review is tied to compensation. So you're not having a meaningful discussion about client development, how you can, you know, work better with others how you really need to, you know, strengthen certain components of what you're doing. Because as a younger professional, you're just waiting for the bonus, you're waiting for the raise. You're waiting to see where you're going for vacation in February because again, almost all in your reviews, at least back when we founded Ripple. We're done at the end of the year, which is the worst time to do it. I mean, you got holiday parties, you got into the year budget issues, you've got all of these things that are circling around your head. And then I call Jeff and say, meet me in the conference room, it's time for the annual review. And it's like, okay, let's just get get it over with. So anytime you're doing an exercise that both parties want to get it over with, it's probably not a very productive exercise.

Jeff Ma  
And I always, I've always told people that, you know, if, if my fly's down, tell me now. It serves me no good to tell me tomorrow that my fly was down today. And, and that's how I always view the annual review, which is you're going back way back in time, things that I no longer have any way to change, grow or learn for. So even if you are paying attention to what we're talking about, it's like, that would have been nice to know, then. And oftentimes, we're hearing it for the first time. Now,

Noah Pusey  
two things on that, first, the human brain only remembers things accurately for six to eight weeks. So that one fact now has to negate the importance of an annual review. Because unless your manager boss leader is taking copious notes throughout the year, they're basing that annual review on the last six, maybe seven, eight weeks. And so if you crush it from January to August, let's say, and then you kind of fall off the hill a little bit in the last few months, your manager is remembering the last few months, he's not giving he or she's not giving you any credit for the first seven, eight months,

Jeff Ma  
I'd add, I'd add that it's the last six to eight weeks, plus whatever biases and personal feelings.

Noah Pusey  
So that's my second point. Yeah, my second point is the annual review is riddled with unintentional almost all the time, unintentional bias, have our kids play on the same soccer team, or I like skiing and you like skiing, or I'm a Mets fan, and you're a Mets fan, or you're like baseball, I like baseball, you like going to museums, I like gonna be I mean all these things that have nothing to do with an employee's performance, or professional development. But we're human beings. And so we take those things into consideration. And what Ripple tries to do and is pretty successful at doing is removing those because it's anonymous, it's an anonymous feedback tool that allows peer to peer genuine feedback. This is what I'm, this is what I'm thinking on the day, I'm thinking it and then I'm giving you the information. So you can see your dashboard and see how you're doing throughout the year instead of the, you know, you did great or you didn't do so great. And you leave that annual review conference room kind of like lost in, in this world of will do I still have a job? Am I Am I the best thing that ever happened at this place? Am I the worst thing that rapid displays are missing in the middle and, and that destroys culture? Because I remember and my boss taught me, my second boss at a law school taught me Don't tell them not to talk to each other about you know, compensation. Well, you know, you tell a 25 year old junior associate, don't tell anybody about this. They're all going out to drink for drinks, or they're going to lunch the next day they're sharing it and and it's just so disruptive to culture in terms of the concept of this is so important to your professional development, but I'm only doing it once a year. And so the unintentional bias and the fact that the brain is built to really remember things accurately, for six to eight weeks, negates the I mean, there have been companies I believe Bear Stearns, General, Bear Stearns, God, Bear Stearns have been gone. Goldman Sachs, GE, Accenture, they did away with their annual review, because no one could justify it. The the 1000s of man hours spent on this exercise, and it was basically like, because we've always done it this way. Well, if you've always done something a certain way, and you can't justify why you've always done it that way, chances are you're ready to pivot away from that, that solution and I use the term solution very, very loosely.

Jeff Ma  
Okay, so walk me walk me through the process at least high level what how does this work in practical application compared to an annual review?

Unknown Speaker  
So we are well, compared to an annual review. It's completely opposite. It's timely. It's, you know, exchanging information that that's actionable. You know, and it's generationally. It's generationally relevant. You know, the, the, the current domestic workforce is, is comprised of four generational employees, the boomers, the millennials, the Gen Xers, my generation and the Gen Z ers, not in that order. It's Boomers, Gen X millennial Gen Z. So the Gen Z and the millennial workforce comprises over 60% of the workforce. If you tell a millennial or a Gen Z or that they did something wrong at their annual review, and they're on on November 17, they did something wrong in March. You'll be lucky if that if that employee comes back to work for you, they'll they'll look at you cross eyed and think, What do you mean? Like, what do you what do you do? And why don't you give me that information back in March? Because maybe I didn't do it wrong in March? Maybe I did it differently than you would have done it. And I can explain to you in March why I did it that way. When you're asking me in November, why I did it, I can't remember back to that stat of the six to eight weeks of genuine recollection. So why why are we why are we even having this exercise? So what ripple does is we send out short surveys every month, based on five core personality traits, the big, the big five, in the in IO psychology, and we send them out to your team, do you have a team of 678 people, everybody gets surveys, they're all randomized about the same questions. And everybody gets surveys for everyone else on their team. And they give and receive feedback constantly, which promotes discussions between managers, because managers get to see everyone's information, I don't get to see your information. If you're on my team, I get to see my manager can see the whole team. And then leaders, owners can see everybody's and what Ripple's. focus is on building stronger individual self aware employees, which builds stronger teams. And those stronger teams create stronger departments, stronger departments create stronger organizations, and at the core of everything is engagement. The feedback drives engagement. And feedback is engagement. Feedback is the the the tool that we use to show people and feedback. By the way, it doesn't have to be our fancy IO, psychology, Big Five personality traits it can be Did you like the venue of the holiday party this year? You know, did you appreciate our dress code? You know, what don't you like about our dress code? You know, do you want? Again, another very timely topic is What do you think about hybrid work? Do you want to come back three days a week, two days a week, five days a week, and get that feedback from your employees. So Ripple gathers that feedback, we crunch it, we analyze it, we put it in a dashboard, and then we show trends. So you can monitor your scores over the course of the year. So when you have that compensation discussion, because I'm we're not, we're not championing the concept of having constant compensation discussions, we understand that those that there are things you want to discuss annually. But when you sit down with Jeff, and you want to talk about the last year, in terms of his performance, his impact on the company, you have objective data to go through that. And Jeff node in the in the beauty of it, Jeff has access to his dashboard. So Jeff knows, going into the discussion with me where he is, I mean, I used to give annual reviews to, to people that would sit down and they they would think they're rock stars. Meanwhile, I'm trying to tell them that if they don't get their act together, they might be out of a job. But their perception of themselves is that they are a key role in the organization. So all expectations are leveled, when you go into a discussion. After you're using ripple, because you have information that you can base those discussions on, we can customize it. So if you have different metrics you want to gather, we can work with an organization to create questions that that gather information around other categories. But yeah, we're all about exchanging, communicating, working with the people on your team to make sure that everyone knows how they're doing, how they're interacting. Our scoring model is called the Ripple Effect score. And the way we built that is, you know, everybody has an impact on everyone they touch during the course of a day, a week, a month, a quarter, etc. And that impact that effect, ripples through your office, it ripples through, you know, and again, that's a I'm reading your book, you know, the first the first 15 pages, I'm just, I'm skimming through because I'm reading I know it, I you know, you're the whole the whole concept of making people's employee experience better, because that follows them throughout their existence is what we're about, if you're happier at work, if we can show you your strengths, if managers can acknowledge what you do great. You know, I have I have an expression I use if I have a Good Friday, I have a great weekend. And that's because if you have if you have a positive day going into those two days where you're supposed to unplug, I know we're both entrepreneurs, so we rarely do, but when you're supposed to just kind of get into that, you know, relaxed stage, if I have a bad Friday, my weekends, probably not going to be that great. And so if you have a good experience in the office, you go home, you meet your loved ones, your family, your friends, your significant others. It's not I mean, it's I hate the cliche, but it's not rocket science. If you're happier in life, you're going to be a better employee you're gonna be more productive you know, all the stats all the ROI's are there it's not it's not just Kumbaya, you know, dancing around the fire or wanting everyone to like each other. It's really Real, I mean, there's percentages, it's 23% increase in profitability 18% increase in productivity 81% Decrease in absenteeism, if you have engaged, self aware, happy employees, that's what I pitch to the CFOs. That's what I pitch to the CEOs, you know, it's not, it is works, we're promoting a culture of, you know, honest, transparent, you know, genuine exchange. But we're also showing that there's $1, there's something to be said about the financial component, you know, retention, I mean, if you can keep, if you can keep your people for 25-30%, longer, you know, the days of, of our parents, you know, retiring after, you know, they're getting their first job at 24. And being there for 35 years, those days are largely over. But if you can keep a millennial, if you can keep a Gen Z year, for another year, year and a half past the three, three and a half year average, that's huge. And that's what we're trying to do, we're trying to build happier people, and, you know, really, at the heart of whatever you leaders should aspire to, I believe is, is making their employees want their co workers, co employees to succeed. I wrote a chapter in a book on, on how to create your future in a corporate setting. And my chapter is all about data analytics and culture. You can define culture 1000 ways, but I see culture as if everyone working in the company wants everyone else to succeed. You know, you know, Jeff has that project that he's trying to finish up. And you know, he's stressed out, and I'm done with my stuff, I leave at five o'clock. See you, Jeff! That probably is indicative of culture that's not that great. Now, if Jeff had helped me three weeks ago, and I left at five o'clock, I'm a jerk. If Jeff didn't help me three weeks ago, and I leave at five o'clock. Again, that's indicative of a culture that's not that great. But if I say, Hey, man, what can I do? What can I do to help you out? Even if I can't help you out, even if you're, you're in a position in that project, where you can't delegate anything? The fact that I say, Jeff, give me something to do, what can I do? And you say, No, thanks. No, I can't, I just can't right now. But I appreciate it. Chances are the culture in that organization is pretty strong.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. And I'm a firm believer that, you know, when it comes to culture, that you have, it's, it's centered around people, obviously. And we talk about culture quite a bit. But when you go, when you kind of come from the top down, let's say from a CEO perspective, and from the upper leadership, we're looking at really satisfying shareholders and bottom line conversations. They look at culture as another, like box to check or look at another, you know, tool, if you will, to be stay competitive. And a lot of solutions, look at, you know, processes and tools. And I bring this up, because obviously ripple is a is a tool. It's a it's somewhat of a process as well, right. And it's these things are created by people or at least implemented by people. And there's this element of truly, you know, addressing the behaviors, and the mindsets of people within an organization that I think gets missed sometimes. And I think one of the things that example I'll give is the annual review, I agree with every single thing you just said it's, it's an abomination. But I will say that there can exist for, say, an organization that still implements annual reviews, but the leaders, but the leaders themselves value, the trust and the vulnerability in their in their teams, values, the value of feedback, and the power of empowerment, things like this. And they you know, they themselves are giving feedback real time along the way, and are having conversations that and I would argue that that organization can still succeed, again, annual review probably makes it harder. But at the same time, there's this element of behavior and how we actually go about and treat ourselves within this culture, that that really shines above all, but it's often ignored. I bring that up because not to be contrarian, but essentially, how do you see I guess, yourself or ripple, your philosophy, kind of tying into and I guess addressing that, or or

Noah Pusey  
so I think what you're asking in terms of and by the way, as a brief aside, you know, we believe the annual review is is fatally flawed, but there are organizations that click, you know, stick to that, that concept. So supplement it. So when you have that annual review, have the objective data that ripple collects, so that when you when you go through the annual review, it's not just shooting from the hip for the last six to eight weeks. It's something that you can have a meaningful discussion you should be having meaningful discussions to Throughout the year, but at least that one big meaningful discussion can be more objectively based and not, as we mentioned earlier, unintentionally biased and, and sort of skewed to to areas that aren't really that important. I think, I think one of the fundamental problems or situations facing most organizations is what I spoke about earlier, in terms of the generational workforce, the people making the decisions are still largely in the upper Gen X and lower Boomer generations. And while they, they, they want to believe and I believe, I truly believe that they want change, you know, your 66 year old CEO has been raised on Techniques on leadership styles from an early age from the generation before them. And it's very difficult to pivot. And I've said this in previous interviews, where you really need interaction from all segments of your workforce. So when you're trying to figure out the right talent assessment, development, management platform to integrate, you need input from 26 year old employees, 34 year old employees, 41 year old employees, you know, it, it's, it's, I can tell from the first couple minutes of a prospect meeting, depending on the demographics of who I'm speaking with, whether they're doing it as a compliance exercise, you know, I know, engagement is important. So I'm gonna take a meeting with Noah and hear how important engagement is, or I'm truly concerned about culture, and I want to develop a sustainable culture that is centered on the people that we hire, and we and we try to keep you know, part of, again, part of the issue with culture engagement, is why do you want it, you know, as a leader, are you doing it, because you read Jeff's book, and you can see how important it is. But you're really not buying in, you're buying in, because it works on on other organizations, so you're hoping it works for you. So you know what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna get beanbag chairs, standup desks, I'm gonna get a ping pong table, and we're going to have a keg in the kitchen. On Thursday afternoon, that'll drive culture right now, those are all those are all byproducts of culture, when Jeff and don't want to play ping pong at the end of the day. That's because they're spitballing about something or they actually like each other. It's not, they're not going to go play ping pong, if they don't like each other, because Ping Pong is just a distraction. And that's the Google model. I think, you know, I think the Google model, everyone looks at it, oh, it's more comfortable, you know, the unlimited paid time off policies that some companies have? Well, that's great, as long as people are doing their work, because they want other people to succeed. And again, going back to my definition of culture, you know, the, the concept, which drove me nuts prior to COVID, and certainly was reinforced during COVID Is that certain generations were gonna just slack off, if they were working from home or working remotely, they're going to wake up hanging out in their pajamas, watch movies, do a couple hours work, and then they'd be done. productivity increased 70% non manufacturing industries, but 70%, during COVID People work more, I'm sorry, productivity increased 2%,  70% of people worked more during COVID than than before COVID. So the paranoia of the older generation or the leaders of organizations that there are people we're just going to slack off, guess what, you know, the the quiet quitting. We've always had quiet quitter, so called, they were called clock punchers. They were called people that that basically did the bare minimum, to gather a check. That's nothing new. That's, I mean, maybe there's more of it happening. But I think you've always seen the people that are not doing work related endeavors at the office. And if you have, if you have them back nine to five, Monday through Friday, they're going to still do whatever they were doing that wasn't productive at home, but you're gonna have them in the office. So I think the the companies that have the annual review, and they want to drive culture and they they want that one main event to kind of hammer home, the employer employee relationship, I think it can be done. I just think the way it's traditionally done is flawed, because it's based on on a lot of times, misinformation, and whatever the gut is over the last few weeks. Yeah.

Jeff Ma  
And I see the annual review as just a, a huge barrier in the way of trust. Because when, when we're busy, we tend to focus on what's directly ahead of us. And we don't have to focus on a review or feedback for that matter, because we have this crutch of an annual review to land on to lean on. And even potentially good relationships can be tainted by leaders that rely on this a review in the wrong ways. And it erodes trust in teams to be able to trust that you know, you'll get feedback when you do something wrong or so that you can make mistakes, that won't come back to bite you eight months later, and things like that. So I really see the value in in timely feedback and being able to actually trust that you're kind of being developed and grown beyond just the bottom line.

Unknown Speaker  
And also acting on the feedback. I mean, one of the key components to what we preach to our new clients, new users, is don't just collect the feedback, because if you just collect it, and don't do anything with it, as managers, you know, empower your managers to use that feedback, to have discussions, you know, to want to acknowledge success, because we're big on the positivity we want, not just the fact that you might have lower scores in certain areas, but where do you score higher, and acknowledge those successes, and then to having the ability to then turn to your cheer people and say, We trust you to use this information in a way that helps the company and helps your individual employees. And trust is huge. Because if you gather that information, if you gather that data, and you don't do anything with it, then your employees are going to say, Well, why? Why did we go through this exercise, if it still, again, you go back to, you can have a compliance exercise, it's done monthly to we send out our surveys on a monthly basis. So if you're just doing it and give everyone we're a 1 to 5, scale 1, never 5, always. So if you just give everyone 3s. It doesn't do anything for anybody, either. We, we also always tell our it's top down, you know, tell our new clients, you know, I had a I had a prospect or client actually they signed up with us few years ago, and they had 50 people or somewhere along that line. And when the when the leader said, we want to implement Ripple, he said that he wanted 49 accounts. I said, Well, no, you need 50. And he said no, why? Why don't we need 50 and i said Well, who's your 50 employees? And he goes, Well, I'm not doing it. And so tell so yes, yeah. And so So six months later, guess what, they weren't using Ripple because the the information, the data was, you know, he didn't like it. And I knew he wouldn't like it because the culture of that organization is he's going to implement this, you know, dynamic new solution to drive engagement, and he's not participating. That's, you know, the leader usually reflects the mood of the of the organization in that, that, that played out that way in that example. 

Jeff Ma  
that story hits too close to home for me. I feel like I feel like culture is too often something that people exclude themselves from, especially up in, in higher leadership. But I think there's a universal kind of truth to that. But I've seen where when we say culture will say, Oh, Google's culture, or my company's culture, is this the company's culture, I get to come and and consume it. And then I go home and do it. And people, I'm like, I'm like, What are you talking about? Because because the culture is nothing more than what you put into it in a workplace as well as the collective of everyone's treatment of each other. And so when I think that mindset is so dangerous, in terms of being able to move forward, because because people are excluding themselves and no more, is it more apparent than the topmost layer where they're like, We have a DEI problem. So give everyone else training, give everyone else you know, and I'm like, where's the mirror?

Noah Pusey  
It's also I mean, it's like any it's like any, when you implement any solution, are you implementing it, because you actually realize there's an issue with the, and that this issue has come to light and that you want to get your arms around it and solve or at least attempt to solve or at least attempt to implement a solution to this issue? Or are you reading on LinkedIn, there's a lot of dei stuff going around that you look into social media, there's a lot of dei stuff going around? Well, I'm a leader, so I better implement something. So you know, whatever it is, let's just do it, and bring in whatever consultants or something on LinkedIn that had something about DEI, let's get the handbook, let's get the extra two pages in the handbook. Everything's good. Instead of actually saying, you know, what, there's an issue and, and we want to actively resolve it. And that, and that goes to a lot of different you know, reality is, I mean, again, that's a beat a dead horse, but the whole hybrid work, place issue, and it's been an issue for the last, you know, 18 months, people don't want to go back. A lot of people don't want to go back. And to my point, if you're, I think it was 65% expect some form of hybrid work model. So if your Jamie Dimon to Chase I use Jamie diamonds name all the time. So I'm sure at some point, I'm gonna have some nasty email sent to me. But if Jamie Dimon is saying, Well, this is how it's always been. We need butts in the seats we need, you know, nine to five Monday through Friday. And he's not listening to 65% of those people who say no, this isn't what we want. Then you know, what's the culture at Chase Manhattan Bank, JP Morgan Chase, it's probably not that great and people, you know, when I was growing up professionally, you didn't just quit. You gave your employer months, if not years of opportunity to cure the problems that formed the foundation for why you wanted to quit right? Now, it's if I don't like where I'm working, I'm gone. There's almost there's no cure period, they're still, you know, mandatory six months, you know, I'm not really happy right now. I'll give them six months to write the ship. Nope. That I mean, people quit quickly. And not the good people. By the way, whenever I talked about, you know, retention, when I talked about the great resignation, attrition, all these, you know, all these words that cause HR people to have fits. You're never if you lost bad people. If you are, if you had 20% attrition, you always lost the 20% of your worst employees. Normally, we talking about attrition, you lose the good people, you have opportunities, you have only so many opportunities to keep your good people happy. And if you lose those opportunities, if you miss on those opportunities, and you lose those good people, the worst thing about 100 employee company, if you lose those 20%, that are rock stars, you're left with people that you have to hope come to realize their importance. And many, many times that does not happen. So you know, when when you're talking about losing people, you're really talking about losing good people more times than not.

Jeff Ma  
While said no. And, oh, we are out of time. I didn't even realize this quickly. Yes. But thank you. Thank you for everything you've shared today. I'm really excited to personally explore more about Ripple Analytics. And I think you're onto something really, really important. And I think it's it's going to make a really big impact. So I appreciate you coming in and sharing the story and the concepts behind that today.

Noah Pusey  
I appreciate the opportunity to share, Jeff, thank you. 

Jeff Ma  
And absolutely to Jamie diamond who's been mentioned twice now

Noah Pusey  
I'm sure he's a really nice

Jeff Ma  
he just his name just keeps coming up. I don't know why on the show. But thank you to the listeners. As always, please continue to support us. We really appreciate all the feedback. And please check out the book Love as a Business Strategy when you get a chance if you haven't. Amazon, all the other places you can find it. And with that we will see you all next week. Thank you so much.