Paul ter Wal  
What I see missing in all the theories and all the management trainings, is looking after core values, and I call them non negotiables. And every person every human being has some core value, some non negotiables.

Jeff Ma  
Hello and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business where we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories from real people, real businesses in real life. And today, I'm joined by Paul ter Wal and he's an international engagement explore employability expert in workplace architect. For more than 25 years, Paul has been in the speaking consulting and training business for executives, human beings, directors and employees. As an organization as an organization expert with a lot of experience as a lawyer in the field of social security and employment law. Paul saw firsthand the ways that Social Security failed humans, he was surprised to learn that despite the millions of dollars, and euros spent to support people when they become ill, or disabled, nothing was invested to keep people employable and engaged. He was disappointed that no one was taking the time to ask workers what they needed to live a good life. Not a million dollar salary, but a fair salary and support and health care and well being. So 22 years ago, Paul left the legal side and moved further into improving humanity, which I'm all about. Meeting with his core values. Paul now establishes consulting engagements that help companies identify and truly live their own values. He shows companies that when they see every employee's full potential and facilitate them to achieve absenteeism decreases, while enthusiasm and productivity increases. So his company name is called team and Dottie and Palter wall is a professional speaker, advisor, Work Health Specialist. All these things I'm so excited. Paul, thank you for joining me on the show today. How are you?

Paul ter Wal  
Jeff, I love to be on your show. And I'm doing really well.

Jeff Ma  
Awesome, amazing. And I love your story I gave a little bit in your intro. But I have a question I always like to open with which is around passion, which is around love and passion really? And so can you can you articulate what is your passion? And how? Maybe talk a little bit about how you arrived at the passion your life?

Paul ter Wal  
Yeah, well, for me, I found out that my passion is is looking after human beings. And we often call them human resources. And that's my big resentment. We're not human capital, we're not resourcing we're human beings. And as a human being, I love to see how we can support other people to get to that next level of full engagement. Because we know if you are engaged and you love your work, or you have passion in your work, or you find your purpose in your work, work isn't work anymore. It's just a way of being it gives you that love that feeling that you really want. And that's what I'm looking for. Today or yesterday, Gallup came with the 2023 analysis on the workplace, it's the new version. And it was confirmed, again, that working on engagement of human beings is helping us to have much more profitability. So it looks different. And my passion is to convince business owners that helping people to come into engagement that it will help that profitability as company because you need to make profit, I don't mind but do it in a human way. And that's what's my passion about and I'm, I'm a long distance walker, I walked the Camino, that's to Santiago de Compostela. And that's 500 miles. And I know to read Santiago is doing it day by day, step by step. So we try to help companies not to jump into engagement, but to go day by day, step by step but keep moving forward. That's what we tried to do.

Jeff Ma  
I love it. And I agree. I'm on board. So let's talk about what But this starts to look like right. So we we, I obviously am biased, but I agree. Right? Happiness, and contentment and belonging for people in the workplace yields profitability and business results. How do you paint that picture for business owners and leaders?

Paul ter Wal  
Well, what I found out looking over the last 2025 years in this field that what I see missing in all the theories and all the management trainings, is looking after core values, and I call them non negotiables. And every person, every human being has some core values, some non negotiables. A lot of people are not aware that they have them. But that's that's silent voice inside your body that said, Nope, don't do it, this is the way we should do it. And then we're talking about it's for you a non negotiable, it's a really core value, it's that part of your being that gives you opportunities to make a choice. Companies have core values as well. And sometimes you'll see that overnight, a management team changes core values, but nobody believes in what core values are, is what you had at the start of your organization, which in your solid mission and the your vision. That's the way an organization organization would love to work. If there is alignment between the core values of the company and the individuals, then engagement can start and that people will work together. There won't be any conflicts, less sick leave and all the things you said. So for me, it's important to start with looking at core values of an organization discussing what they mean, because a lot of people use the word integrity, when nice word but what does it mean for you? So that's the this decision of the discussion, we start with the C suite. What do we mean? What's it all about? For you for the organization? And that's the most beautiful part because if they know the right words, and the right sentences are about core values, then we can start a project on engagement.

Jeff Ma  
So help me understand when it comes to it makes perfect sense. If a person's core values non negotiables, align up with a company's Of course, there's going to be this this power behind it. But if they don't align our people's core values able to change our company's core values able to change it by very definition, when it's called a non negotiable. Like, if you change it, aren't you negotiating it to something else?

Paul ter Wal  
I think, of course, they can change a little bit in the shallow meaning of the sentence in the sounding of the words. Because as you grow older, as a company, or as human being, you'll discover other parts, but still it connects with that. That's why it's called core feeling. It comes from your core from your body. It's that sixth sense that you have that this is right for me. We will change a little bit. We will change the organization. Oh yeah, it often does. Yeah, yeah, new CEO comes in. And he said we need to change the organization and bang on a Friday afternoon, we go to a hotel and we change the core values. Well, then in the next couple of months, you will see that the quiet quitters, the number will increase. So people will be satisfied content  but not engaged anymore because they can't align with the organization anymore. So is it wrong that you don't have alignment? Yes. But then you as an individual should leave you should say this is not working for me. I will become ill physically or mentally working here in an environment that doesn't fit my needs. And of course, sometimes you have the financial obligation to stay there. The family choices make you stay there, but I see a lot of people becoming unhappy and when they They become unhappy, their wellbeing will decrease. And with that other problems start as well. So a lot of the stress that we feel nowadays is connected to that level of engagement and that level of alignment of core values. And it's stated in the program from Gallup now that that engagement is so important, much more important than the location of the company. And still, we think that you need to go to an office, that you need to go to your colleagues, and they say, engagement is 3.8 times more important than the location where you work. So with COVID, we were taught that working hybrid or from home still can make you engaged. And of course, we need to find the right solution per person. But it's not about the office that you need to be there to be engaged. No, that's control, then I can see you I can watch, you can see what your output is. And 6% of the employees need to be at their workplace. To be honest, cleaning, all the kinds of people need to be in the office. On the other side, we know now that engagement is not linked with location, but with the group, the and to share some the confirmation that you get from your leader. So leadership is very important, your team is important and the way you work together and the way you feel about work that is making engagement. So if you are not alone anymore, I think it's time to start looking around. And that's what we saw after COVID, about 50% of us of the employees were looking for other jobs in Europe. 34 35% is now decreasing again. But suddenly, we notice that the location wasn't important that we could work from home or from another place. And then we suddenly said, I don't feel at home anymore in this situation. And it's not about the location. So why should I stop looking for another job? And I think that's one of the only positive sides that COVID had that we acknowledged that it's not about location anymore.

Jeff Ma  
Paul, what are your non negotiables?

Paul ter Wal  
I have four fairly dominant ones, and we'll be some around it. But number one is transparency leading to integrity. As you said in the introduction, I'm a lawyer. And once you are lawyer, you always stay a lawyer. So for me, integrity is very important. But that can be black and white. And what I like to see if if something happens, I want to know and I need to know, why are people doing what they're doing? What is it that makes them make that decision that can harm me or others. And I want to look into it. So transparency is one of my major core values. The second one is my family is my central focus. A lot of people say My family comes first. And that's, that's great. That's amazing. For me, I love to travel. I love to be around the world. I love to meet other people, other countries, other tribes. And I will always go home. I will always be back in one or two weeks. And that's my central focus on my family, my wife, my kids, my grandkids that that is my basic, that's where I need to be. Number three, and that's a very important one in my work fun is my fundament. So if I do a job for me, it's important that it gives me a lot of energy. I love the way of the battery. The more energy you get, the greener you become, and the less you can go into burnout. If work is costing you much more energy than it's giving them in time after five, six months you will get a burnout you will be totally non energetic anymore. For me, that's when I'm not having fun in the work I'm doing and then I will quit and it will cost me money and it did in the past. If I was working for a company, and I thought, with the transparency in mind, I don't believe what they're saying, this is not really true. So it's words but not believe, then I will stop. Because it's costing me energy. And number four very important for me and below the three others is loyalty. I'm, I'm very  loyal to people, I'm almost naive in my trust. So if I trust you, I will give you all because I'm loyal to you. If something happens, I will go to the fun part, I will go to the transparency part and see how it works together. So those four, non negotiables, for me are very, very important. And I discovered him about five, six years ago. And of course, I had them but I couldn't give them words. And then I was in South Africa with my two coaches, because I'd love to be coached. Every two or three years, I spent three, four days with my two coaches, male and female, and they are a team and they work very good together. And they helped me to get to that next level. And I think everybody should have that opportunity to talk with coaches about you about your life about what is what makes you tick. That's, that's an important thing. Are you are you happy with what you're doing? And they made me much more aware of how important my core values are. And since them, every presentation I give worldwide, I will show my core values. And I like to be favorable about it. Because if people know my core values, and they say, Hey, Paul, but you did this yesterday, I'm accountable, to tell what happens and make make the alignment again. So for me next to engagement, accountability is very important. And that's 10 times more than responsibility. You are accountable for your deeds for your actions for what you say. And people can say, hey, I'm Paul, these are your non negotiables, I see a conflict. How can we help not blame you, but help you. And that's what I like talking about and with human beings.

Jeff Ma  
To get a real sense of, of, of love, and I'm granted, I'm always looking for love. I'm actively looking for love, especially in this podcast love as a business strategy. But I am picking up on on a lot of the short tale signs of love and what you're saying, because in a lot of ways, it's kind of a prerequisite for some of the things that you're Yeah, that are in your values that are core values. But also like, even as you mentioned, the end there. It's an act of love for someone to hear your, your non negotiables and your core values and then call you out on it. In a sense of loving, you know, to help you.

Paul ter Wal  
Yeah, I think it's important that we stop blaming in this world, we are quite good and saying, Oh, you do this wrong. And look at Twitter. Oh, it's all. And if you give a compliment, a lot of people don't know how to accept a compliment anymore. Yeah, and it's an it's difficult. And I always say it's an act of give and receive instead of give and take. And nowadays, and I'm hoping that it's changing from the meat culture, to the wheat culture, to the community culture, where love is much more accepted. That we stop giving an A quick taking, we take a lot and I always say if you give a you have your hands open, and then you can receive but then you'll find trouble because you're not taking you're waiting till the other gifts you something and is loving you so much that they are willing to give you whatever. And I think that's that's the most important message for people stop taking start receiving.

Jeff Ma  
A lot that that makes a lot of sense. I'm going to shift gears. I know you do your work in the Netherlands and I know you've done some work around organizations where sick leave is high. Can you talk a little about the context of that especially we have we have audience that is not been in the Netherlands, so maybe give us paint that paint that picture first a little bit. And like what you learned there?

Paul ter Wal  
Yeah, what we, we have a social security system in the Netherlands where when you get ill, and you can't work, because of an illness, we will pay you 52 weeks, one year 100% of your income, and then another year 70%. And then you will get into Social Security. And a lot of people find it strange that when you're not working, your company is still paying you. But we see it as an act of connection, to stay connected with people and try to get them back into work in working life in your company or in another company. Because we all know that. If you're working, the chance of becoming more happy, more in love is greater than when you stay at home and you are a victim. So we have a great system, it's quite expensive, but with the changing demographics, with less people coming into the workforce than that are leaving. It's a great effort that if somebody gets ill because of cancer, or a car accident, whatever, we don't fire them, put them aside, but keep them with us. And then ask a company doctor, what do we need to do to get them back to work reintegrate them back to work. And that's great work. And before COVID, our sick leave was around 4%. That's not high. Now. It's about 6%. That's high and I work for, especially in healthcare organization with 10 12%. Due to COVID, a lot of people got overworked, got stressed out, got the bore out. Most of them after Corona, because during Corona, they kept working. But they lost so much energy that at the end, that battery was completely empty. And then they both they fell down. And that's what's happening now. And for me, it's important that we don't blame them, fire them, kick them out of our company, but help them to get back to work. Because first we need them. Secondly, partly it was our fault as a company that they started doing this. So if you see high, simply engagement is low. The lower engagement goes, the higher engagement goes away, you see that are two vessels that are communicating. So if I'm not happy at work, my engagement goes down. And it's easier for me to call in sick. Because there is not something holding me back because I know the gates, I don't like my work anymore. I don't like my colleagues, I don't feel well, my wellbeing is bad. And then I drop out. What we tried to do is not to put the sick leave below, put it down, but get people back into engagement because then sick leave goes down. And by the way, mistakes and incidents in companies go down politic fatigue goes up. So a lot of positive stuff has happened to people, if we didn't call it the seven keys, but I found researching that there are some 16 keys that we can see in this field on which when we work on engagement, that sick leave goes down, incidents go down, retention goes up. So a lot of people are not quitting the organization but they are staying because they love that word love again. They love to work for your organization that loves to work for your team. They love the products they're making. They love the servicing services they're delivering. So it's highly connected. And it took me a lot of years to find that connection because I was working on sick leave reducing the numbers and you think but is it all medical? No, it isn't 80% of sick leave has to do with mental issues. If you know it, then don't get a doctor inside with a psychologist or a coach and help those people to regain their enthusiasm and to regain their energy and get back to work.

Jeff Ma  
What it sounds like some times, for many businesses, once that's uncovered, the answer will likely have to start with their own core values. And leadership's is that, is that accurate?

Paul ter Wal  
Absolutely. All the research show that leadership, and that's for me something different than management. Management is ticking the boxes, that I get the output data reads my KPIs. But I would love to see more critical success factors, how can I read my KPIs? If My people are engaged, then don't focus on the KPIs that focus on engagement, focus on human beings, have a good conversation with them, listen to them, make time for them. And I see a lot of managers say, Oh, I have an open door policy. But when you get to their office, the door is closed. Well, that don't say you have an open door policy. So managers need to go outside of their office and meet the people that work for them. So a leader is not above the people, it's that he's standing behind his employees, his professionals, and he's supporting and facilitating them, that they can become better professionals. So not ticking the boxes, did they do what I asked them to do? Now? How can I improve that performance? by facilitating them? Well, then you need to stand beside them behind them and have a chat with them. And just ask, What can I do for you? Well, you know, a lot of managers and leaders, and not many asked that question. Yeah.

Jeff Ma  
So when it comes to those leaders, and if if we're facing a situation where it's, you know, they need to make some kind of change in order to bring people along to if the business is, from a business perspective, trying to have more retention, reduce turnover, and things like that reduced sick leaves. Where do we start? When creating, whether it you know, there's core values that need to be addressed? There's leadership behaviors that need to be addressed? Where can we start to tackle these?

Paul ter Wal  
Well, what what we tried to do is, is we call it the creation factory, we start talking with people, and not only the CEO, CFO,  the CHRO. You hear when I say this kind of things that we're still talking about Taylor and McKinsey 100 year ago when they say we have human resources. And we still think that way. So we start with the leadership team. And we start telling them this story, and we start training them to ask the right questions, and we call it the traffic light system. We asked for first, what people are red with who are in danger that if you don't change anything, they will leave the organization within weeks or months. Most managers knows exactly who are in the red area. Do they act on it? No. Well, so we train them to stop acting and save those people. Then you have a lot of people in orange that are the people that are consented that we like our work, it's good. I started time stopping time, get my money on time. So I'm quite happy. But they're not really engaged. And then you have the green people, the people are fully engaged. And what we do is focus a lot on orange, but not on the green ones. And what we need to do is to pay attention to people that are fully engaged because a lot of the orange people want to be part of that team as well. So they will climb up the ladder from Orange into green if they see that the leader is paying attention to you when you are engaged, so don't spend your money and time on a lot of people who are willing to leave. Spend your time on people who want to stay because they love you. They love your company. They love what you're doing. So love them back.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, that is a pitfall I've experienced myself Have where you get so caught up in trying to bring up the reds and bring everybody up to a certain lead that you completely disregard and forget to give attention and you're turning greens into oranges at the same time. That's that's such a great point. And it's

Paul ter Wal  
quite easy, because all the time we talk with leaders and we say, Who are the people who agreed? And and they know that names and Okay. What are you doing to keep them green? And most of the time, it's nothing. It's for us. It's quite normal, what they do? And if we say, okay, still, you can ask that question, hey, you're doing great. How can I help you? And not only at work, but in private life as well. Because if you lose a lot of energy in private life, if you have financial problems, why shouldn't we send a budget coach over to them to make them clear how they can solve the problem, because they will get more energy. And a lot of orange will become green, because you help them out when they have an issue. And you weren't complaining about them, but you are focusing on helping them. And they you see the difference between a manager and a leader, a leader is supporting facilitating helping people out and people that are more managing, are not paying attention to human beings. They look at resources, and look at only the money. That's what we try to convince management and I must say, they love to do it. It's difficult for them, because they were never trained to do it because they did an MBA or whatever. So they were business focused, not human being focused. And we need to change them to make that cost analysis. Hey, it's better for your company, if you have more green people, because your profitability will go up. So maybe you should be wise and love those people more.

Jeff Ma  
Well, said, Paul, and I know we're about at time here. But I want to thank you so much for all the things you've shared today and all the enthusiasm around this really important thing. And when it comes to having these core values, I think it's not always I think people's journeys towards their own core values and their awareness around themselves is different. And so hearing how you frame it, and hearing how you put it together, I think helps me a lot and I hope helps a lot of people who hear it a lot. So I really appreciate you for the time today.

Paul ter Wal  
Oh, I love doing it. And it makes me energetic as well to talk about it. That's what you notice. And if I can, I think everybody can it's it's inside our spirit to have this kind of conversation to help people out. So I'm Thank you, Jeff, for having me on your show. I love to be here.

Jeff Ma  
pleasure is all mine. And thank you to the listeners as well. Thank you for staying tuned in and checking out the podcast. If you haven't checked out the book for some reason. Please do love as a business strategy. And please subscribe, rate, help us out, spread the word. Tell your friends. We appreciate all that. And I'm really glad I had Paul today. And I hope you guys are looking forward to our next episode next week. So with that, I will sign off say everyone have a great day. Bye