Frank Agin
I have often said that leadership and networking are closely aligned. People who are good leaders have strong networks and people who have strong networks tend to be leaders. And I think it really, if you had to boil it down to three words, leadership or networking, it's simply serve other people.

Jeff Ma
Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy — a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. We want to tackle those topics that most business leaders shy away from, we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. We want to have conversations and hear stories about how real people and real businesses operate. And I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I am lucky to be joined today by Frank Agin, he's the founder and president of AmSpirit Business Connections, where he works to empower entrepreneurs, sales reps and professionals around the country to become more successful through networking. He's a professional speaker and host of the Networking RX podcast, which also helps business professionals enhance their networking skills. And Frank is also importantly, the author of several books, including Foundational Networking, Building Know, Like and Trust to create a lifetime of extraordinary success, Chase greatness, Life lessons revealed through sports and my personal favorite, The champion: Finding the most valuable person in your network. And that was a book I really enjoyed, and it's helped me out a lot. I highly, highly recommend it. So Frank, welcome to the show. How are you?

Frank Agin
I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. It's quite a build up, I need to live up to this now.

Jeff Ma
I mean, your your your rap sheet is very long, I had to pick and choose. But those are my favorite. Those are my favorite hits. Thank you. I have a question for you. But forget like a little icebreaker. I'm curious, which which of your many books is your favorite? And why?

Frank Agin
Oh, that's easy. Any one of the ones I've written? And that's got to be your answer to because it's not if your book is not your favorite, then it's nobody's Um, no. But if I push mine aside, you know, the probably the best book I have on my shelf is a book called Bringing out the best in people by Alan Lloyd McGinnis. And I think that that's, that was kind of the kickoff for me to really the love of learning the love of reading. Somebody gave that book to me, and it's not, I don't even know if it's in print anymore. To be honest, it was 20 some years ago, you probably could you can get anything out there. Um, but it's it's a simple read. It's very basic, it's common sense. It's not common practice. Right. And I think it dovetails nicely into into your book, just decency and kindness, you know, wrapped in into a little bit of psychology. But reading that that kind of led me to other books, because there are other books referenced. And whoa, you read that you should read this. And you see my bookshelf is chock full of books. So yeah. Apple started there.

Jeff Ma
No, that's great. Thank you for that. I will check it out. Because that you kind of just named our entire philosophy in our book, which just make it an easy read. Make it something that's common sense, but not common practice. I love all that. It's awesome. I want to jump in with you, Frank. Really just about you like starting with you as a person. Like, can you talk a little bit about obviously, we're here to talk about networking specifically and your expertise in that. But talk to me about your passion and like what brought you to where you are today?

Frank Agin
Yeah. I live in Columbus, Ohio, and I'm not from here. I moved here. I should say I'm from here. I moved here 37 years ago to go to law school. Got a law degree and an MBA from Ohio State. The Ohio State University, I suppose to say I guess. And I from there, I got a job in public accounting as a tax consultant. And it was a great job. It was great pay was great. Everything I just didn't want to do taxes for the rest of my life. And I kind of have just this entrepreneurial part of me that needed to be exercised. So I left and I went into private practice. Now up till that time, Jeff, I really operated under the notion that you do well in school, you work hard, you accumulate credentials. You know, here I am going out into private practice. I've got a law degree. I've got an MBA, I've got a CPA at this point. Who wouldn't want to hire me? Well, funny thing happened in private practice. And the funny thing was, nothing happened. People don't really care about those things. I mean, they do to a certain level, but it's really, it's really not what you know, it's who you know. And so I struggled. I was definitely afraid. I mean, everybody struggles in business starting out, but I was definitely afraid for about the first six weeks I want to say because I didn't know I didn't even have a clue as to where We're hard to get any footing if I can use that, that metaphor, that analogy. And somebody said, You should go to a chips club or a leads group. And there was an organization in town, it was very similar to BNI was based out of Pittsburgh, somebody suggested I go to it. And I did. And it made total sense to me, that you could lift up your whole world just by helping other people. And you know, I love talking about your book, I, you know, you know, love to talk about what you guys are doing, and I can promote you guys all day long, and be energized at the end of the day. If I self promote for five minutes, I'm exhausted. And so the whole notion of being in a group where you just help other people and trust that they're going to do the same for you really resonated with me. So I got really involved in the in that organization I got on an advisory board National Advisory Board, was its first franchisee, and then bought it out in the early 2000s stopped the practice of law. So that's how I ended up in this space. changed my trajectory, I started really becoming what I'll call a student of networking, a student of professional relationships, why some people thrive, with respect to their professional relationships, why people struggle, how some people get referrals and why other people don't? And there are reasons it's, it's not luck.

Jeff Ma
Sure. Yeah. I know, just the, the book that the champion, I mean, that one we serve internally and Softway. We circulate that book, we all bought it. And we we talked about it, we had like a book club around it, because it was it was great, the way it frames, how to look at networking in such a simple but impactful way has really helped shape and kind of connect into how we look at Love as a Business Strategy as well, which is why I'm so excited to talk to you today. Because, you know, like when we talk about Love as a Business Strategy, we really, really focus, you know, 90% of that on leadership and internal, you know, workplace cultures and things like that. But all that has always been like a means to the end of, you know, doing good work, and really producing good results, creating high performing teams that actually create output and business results, right. And a big part of any business is sales, marketing. Networking, essentially, is a part of that, and being able to really tightly connect that between kind of your networking strategy and philosophies. With with really, I think it just blends so well with the idea of humanity that we believe so much in that it's just been a no brainer for us. It's been amazing too.

Frank Agin
Well, thank you, I, you know, I, people who are good leaders have strong networks and people who have strong networks tend to be leaders. And I think it really, if you had to boil it down to three words, leadership or networking, it's simply serve other people. Right? That's, you know, I know, it's more complicated than that. It can be more complicated than that. But at its very core, that's what it's about, you know, when you, you know, that's the essence of Love a Business Strategy. You know, just let's serve other people. Let's, let's worry about other people. The bottom line will take care of itself. It always does. When you serve other people, and it's just you know, I'm an entrepreneur, I know a lot of solopreneurs. It's not a company, they're not companies, per se, there are people out there doing business, and it's, you know, the same rules apply. We're all we're all dealing with the same basic DNA. I know when you and I originally talked, I shared the story about Margaret Mead, and she was teaching a class Margaret Meads, a famous anthropologist and one of her students asked, What was the first sign of human civilization? Of course, you know, she's coming up with an answer, trying to come up with an answer thinking about it, in that, in that quiet moment of probably 15 to 30 seconds, which can seem like an eternity in class. Everybody's thinking, okay, you know, clay pots, weapons fire, and her response was a healed femur. And she went on to explain that in the human in the in the animal world, you don't see animals with healed femurs. You see animals with broken femur because in for those who aren't familiar, the femur is the bone that connects the knee to the hip. Most mammals have one. And you break that bone. Most other animals, it's a death sentence you can't move. But when they started coming across the remains of humans that had heel, heel femurs, and we know that without modern medical care takes about six weeks for that to heal. They knew that there was something different that people were making a conscious decision to to stay with one another and care for one another, this just before Uber Eats right before Amazon delivery for any of that, right? I mean, it had to, you literally had to forage and and, and that was a critical decision in the in human development. Because if you stayed and cared for somebody, your group was stronger. Right? If there were four people, and so one person was hurt, you go from four to three, that's, that's a significant drop in your, in your manpower, if you will. But the other thing is, is that when you stop and help somebody else, you kind of assure yourself, that they'll do the same for you when you need it. Yeah. And that DNA, I don't care what your race is, I don't care what your religion is. I don't care what your political leanings are, that DNA is, and all of us, we want to help each other. And that just goes to the core of what you guys are all about. And what what I try to be all about.

Jeff Ma
I love that I love so much. I'm curious, what, why, what do you why do you think, like, how did we get here? When I say here is like, you know, not doom and gloom. But, you know, in general, I think there's this picture of business, the business world, networking, inside business, and you know, between businesses, and just at networking events, if you will, like just kind of the idea of sales in general, like when you think of like a salesman, or a salesperson, it's just sleazy. It's kind of like, how did we get here? Like, when did it become so I guess, you know, competitive /it became a process. I don't know what it is like, what's your take on that?

Frank Agin
Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. And I think part of it is part of it is, is there is no, let me let me use this as an example. In my business, I sell franchises. And when you sell a franchise, it's very regulated, I have to be audited every year, I have to disclose all sorts of numbers to my attorney. And it's all presented in a package to the federal government, that anybody, certainly anybody I'm selling to gets to have, I have to, I have to let them see everything. The good and the bad. I've been sued bankruptcy, all that stuff. And none of it's there. But if if it were, I'd have to disclose it, what my sales were how I did business with people, all those things, any dispute, I have to put all that stuff out there. Now, when you go to the networking event, they don't have that. So they can easily say, oh, Jeff, I made seven figures last month, you know, now, I mean, I guess that's outlandish. But you know, somebody tells you hey, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm a coach, I'm a consultant, and I made seven figures last year, you have no way of checking, you have no way of knowing. You don't have the time to follow them home and realize that they're still living in their parents basement, you don't, you don't know those things. And so they, they can easily say those sorts of things, and get away with it. Likewise, we look at Ink Magazine, Entrepreneur Magazine, what are the stories that are in there, it's the stories of the the 1% businesses, the ones that just hit everything perfectly. And you don't have the stories of the 85% that have survived, that have really kind of slugged along. You know, just like the business you're in, you know, at one point literally having to cut half the payroll to survive. You don't necessarily get those stories. And so it's easy to perpetuate this myth that, yeah, you get out and you're really gregarious, and everything's great. In reality, it's the person who is quiet and willing to serve other people that isn't out there beating his or her chest, that you don't see those stories. They're not an Ink Magazine. They're not you know, and so, really, it's I'm not I don't want to blame the media or anything like that. But it's we we allow ourselves to be taken in by by these urban legends, if you will. Yeah. And I see him all the time you if you're around long enough, you will see those people going from one thing to the next in the next to the next. And if it would, if this were so great, why are you on to this? Yeah, it just doesn't make sense.

Jeff Ma
It's kind of like seeing like, like supermodels and things and like, it's like, that's the standard when really the standard is. That's very unrealistic. Right? Yeah. Average for the average business or average person. Yeah. I think, you know, one of our one of our sayings, we said all the time is our mission, if you will, is to bring humanity back to the workplace. Right? We're very, very, very passionate about it. And one of the things that the reason we intentionally use the word back You know, bring it back, that implies that it's missing or gone. And it can be a controversial kind of phrasing for some. Because, you know, it's not, we're not devoid of humanity of the most part. But one of them is just that, you know, we've, when you look around a lot of many corporate work environments, it just internally inside, right, you have people who are all working for the same organization. And yet, it's kind of like this Doggy Dog, or like, kind of like, you got to look out for number one, you got to go for just the individuals. So your your, your enemy is your coworker or your boss, or you know, the pressures and the deadlines, it's a fight for survival on an individual level. And so bring humanity back to workplace a big part of that equation is kind of stepping back and seeing the bigger picture of how we help each other and how what a team looks like. And what I loved about combining your your book and your thoughts on networking was that it doesn't have to stop there, you know, I think it's very easy to say, hey, everyone in this business should work together to fight, you know, all these other external factors, competitors, and things like that. But, man, it's been such a freeing thing to kind of go out into the world since reading your book, and just treat everyone like, you know, just kind of go out there and just just help people if we can just be ourselves, because that's how we that's what we would do for somebody, you know, out in the street, somebody's face to face and not having to look at the world so cutthroat so it's almost a applying that individual survival kind of mentality to doesn't have to stop there. It's like, between businesses between, you know, sales folk, if you will, like we can still also have this, this collaboration and helping each other for it. I think it's such a freeing thing.

Frank Agin
Well, I mean, it's, it's really, it's what we're made to do. And I think part of the problem is, and nobody's created the problem. It's just, it's just kind of there. And I noticed this when I was in public accounting is, you know, as a new person in public accounting, I was looking for approval and acceptance from my, you know, my supervisor, and I never really got the kudos from him or her. Because they were so busy trying to get their acceptance from the next level, and the next level and the next level, and went all the way up to the main headquarters in New York. And the guy in New York was probably answering to a bunch of investors or a group of people. And so nobody's getting, their getting their pat on the back, nobody's getting their love. And the beautiful thing about what you guys have what you guys have put together and what you pulled and pulled together, is at one point, and I don't know the whole story, but I've talked to Mohammad, he stopped and said, You know what, I love you guys, he started pushing it down, right? And then that gave you the freedom to say, you know, what, I'm gonna push it down to, and then it just

kind of spreads. I don't wanna use the word epidemic, because that's a horrible connotation.

But you know, what I mean, it was yeah, you know, it's, it became infectious through the whole organization. And, and I think that's kind of the same thing, you know, we can do in our communities, however, we define our communities, whether it's a, you know, a small community, or maybe your community is, you know, a larger part of the region or for some people, a community might be the whole world. But just, you know, try and again, serve other people.

Jeff Ma
Has this approach ever backfired on you, like, have you ever been taken advantage of or, or felt, you know, kind of betrayed in that sense?

Frank Agin
Yes, yes. It has. And but I always I, I go through life with this philosophy. You everybody has one chance to screw me over. You better make it good. Right? You have one chance. And go ahead. And I've had that for a while I practice law. And I had people who, you know, they didn't take me to the cleaners, like a Bernie Madoff type of thing. But I may have done things for them. And they just didn't come through when I needed them. Or they just it was clear that they were very self centered. And I just moved on from them. So you have one chance to screw me over. But you have a lifetime of doing great business with me. And you get to choose the people who are of them of the ilk of hey, I'm going to take advantage of people. They, they really need to have huge networks because they're constantly trying to and I don't you know, lots of their net parts of their networks don't like them. You know, they're constantly having to keep ahead of, of their reputations, and where is it so easy to become that person who, you know, the champion, right the person who just serves other people? And let that let that, you know, carry you?

Jeff Ma
Yeah. You know, I am reminded of when I was in gosh, like high school, my first job was at a movie theater. And I would work kind of the, the reception area where we tear tickets and people would come in. And I'm reminded of this guy who had almost a weekly, I'm he's went to my school and almost weekly, he'd come up to me, he be like, Hey, man, let me get in, like, let me let me just get in the beginning this movie, I just want to watch it. He just come and just ask, like, over and over. And I and you know, as a teenager, you feel pressured to like, Sure, help someone and then I remember, just being really was very uncomfortable and stressful, and very, I just hated every time I saw him show up, I would just be like, I just feel. And then I have friends who, who who'd come up. And you know, not that I was really not a rules breaker for the most part. But I have friends who I'd always try to help out, you know, and they never asked. And I'm reminded of such a young lesson because it's such a like, the, the the ideas you share so simple at that level, it's like, we we can understand it as teenagers and younger about how those in our lives who just genuinely care for us, you know, we will generally care back and that type of back and forth help is where real progress is made, where real people really lift each other up. And yeah, I mean, I'm just I should share a little anecdote because literally, I like bringing it back to like, when, you know, I would argue that, you know, you're not, you don't have life figured out yet, you don't have a lot of you don't have a strong, sturdy head on your shoulders yet. But I think even in those moments, I'm already understanding the difference. And it's shocking that we don't, and a lot of ways as adults, like, really practice that as much.

Frank Agin
Yeah, you know, I mean, I totally agree. I totally agree. I see people who, you know, I can think back to my own stories. And, you know, you taught us earlier, how did we How did we get it so wrong? And it's, I think part of the problem is, is that we don't, we don't measure kindness. We don't quantify it. It's very qualitative, right? Sales, you know, profits, things like that are very quantitative. And so it's easier to have a pressure on those things. And, you know, I know, people will go to networking events, and they get really, really pushy. It's like, oh, I got to make quota. Yeah, well, people don't care about quarter, you know, relationship, you can't change the you can't change human dynamics, because you've got a quota. But that's how we start pushing into those things. And, you know, it's likewise, similar to the person pushing you for that free ticket. You know, he doesn't care about the relationship. He just do. But but the thing he can quantify as I get a free ticket, yeah. And he probably lost in the long run.

Jeff Ma
It's very, very transactional, I guess. Yeah. I, I feel like when it comes to, you know, just just basic, like humanity of it all, I I'm consistently just blown away by how, how basic this is at a level of just human decency. And I'm still just baffled at times. Why? We, I mean, do you have a take on? Like, I guess where, where are we coming from? When we're how do we get you here's a better question. How do we get people back on track, like as a whole, like, not individually, you can read the book, talk about networking, specifically? The problem I'm always trying to solve is like, this is like a mindset to me, right? Like this is more of a less me versus the world and more us together mindset, like how do you think we can approach that better?

Frank Agin
Well, I can share with you what I did. And this was I can't even remember when it was it was years ago. But I just got a simple notebook. And I just started writing in it when I did things for other people. I gave it the name the giving journal. I wasn't you know, Jeff, I wasn't keeping score. You know, I did this for Jeff. I wasn't I wasn't doing it. So I could come back and say, Jeff, you're in my you're in my little black book. Do me a favor. I just did it so I could keep track because I noticed that there was a lot of people out there Many people think that they're generous. And they, in their mind goes to that one instance, two months ago, when somebody came to the door, and they gave him 10 bucks, yeah, I'm generous, if see. And I just, I didn't want to, I didn't want to declare myself to be, you know, generous adding value giving and wanting to really see. And so I started just keeping track. And what I found was this is that little journal called to me. Not, not literally, but figuratively, we sit on my desk, and I could see, you know, today we're recording, it's so Happy St. Patrick's states, that's 17th. And I could see that, oh, my gosh, it's been five days since I've done something. Hmm. And so I would be searching for things, you know, volunteering, you know, giving referral, making introductions, little, you know, wooden keep track of holding open doors, or little things like that, but really meaningful, tangible sorts of things. And I found that, you know, it went from, you know, once or twice a week, to once or twice a day, always kind of be looking on the on the lookout, my awareness of it really, really raised up. And I actually, one of the books I wrote, it's a small little booklet, I'll send you a copy. It's called The Giving Journal. And I just kind of explained that just as you know, it's just a really simple thing. Just keep track of what you're doing, or in maybe just even setting a goal to say, you know, what, today, I'm going to do five nice things for someone, you know, making a compliment all these little things, you know, stopping at a co workers cubicle and just asking how, how their parents are doing, you know, I didn't understand your dad had surgery, how did that go? I mean, there's a little niceties that we can do. And by keeping that little journal, it just kind of raised my level of awareness as to things I could be doing, and how often I was doing them.

Jeff Ma
I love that. That makes so much sense. I love that makes so much sense of kind of last angle here, I think, what I guess what do you say, to the type of person who I guess you can call the skeptic, but I guess to label it more specifically, you know, a lot of these things. Whether it's our philosophy of love as a business strategy, and you know, serving others and humanity put putting love first, or just somehow have been skewed to become signs of weakness, like vulnerability, people are afraid of being weak or being seen as weak. And then in the sales world, which is now labeled, as you know, cutthroat and things like that, you know, networking in this way can also be seen as like, the sucker or being weak again, what do you say to those people who are really stuck in that mindset that, that, you know, this approaches? You know, they just don't believe in it yet?

Frank Agin
Well, I mean, there was I saw a meme on social media, Facebook, Instagram, it doesn't matter. It's all the same in my mind. But the meme said, go ahead and underestimate me. This will be fun. And I think that really kind of rang true with me, because I think people in those who have that mindset that have that mindset are really under estimating the people who are doing it the right way. I mean, the reality is, is it's back to my Hey, you can screw somebody over and then go find another person to screw over another person to screw over. That's a lot of work, right? But if you treat somebody, right, and they're in your camp, you don't, you can go on and treat somebody else, right, and they're in your camp, and it's so it starts to grow exponentially. So in a moment, the person who's willing to screw somebody over looks like they're ahead of the game. But the person who's doing it right, quietly builds this, this momentum behind them. And then the the question I'll ask people from time to time is kind of drive the point home, if if you had the ability to give somebody a winning lottery ticket, you couldn't take it you can't give it to your family can't give it to a friend you can't give it somebody is going to give it back to you. But if you had to give it to somebody that you know out in the community, who you're going to give it to you're probably going to end up giving it to that person who's going to in somehow or another invested in the community so it raises everybody up and to me that drives home the point that we really want the good people of the world to win. Mm hmm And you know, so it's it's easy to say hey, nice guys finish last look at look at what Bob did. Wow, nice guys do finish last he was cutthroat you know, Susan or Sally or Jeff or whoever who's done it the right way. It's, you know, it's gonna it's the tortoise and the hare, right? Slow and steady, right? Steady, steadily, just doing the right things. Those things add up over time, and, you know, they they pay off time and time and time again. You know, it's a tell you a quick story. I know we're running short on time. 25 years ago, I was asked to give a speech. That was an attorney asked to give speech, the Ohio Business Brokers Association, I was a little reluctant about it, I just wanted, I didn't want to take time to write a speech, I wanted a client. Nevertheless, I went, gave a speech, develop relationships with all these people. 25 years later, I'm still in contact with those people. And they're still providing me opportunities, not legal opportunities, because I'm not in that world anymore. But I'm introducing me to people, my youngest son, who will be graduating college is getting into residential or excuse me, commercial real estate appraisal, I'm going to connect him with all those people in that organization. And that's gonna be the perfect place for him to network or a good place for him to network, I should say. And that's going to pay him dividends. For 25, your first career? Yeah. So that one speech I did 25 years ago that I never got paid for never looked to get paid for is going to yield benefits for probably 50 years. Wow. That's, that's something. Yeah, that's something.

Jeff Ma
I love that. And I think that the challenge that I often face in working with folks is also like, there's the there's the tactical side of things, which is like help others and it comes back to you. But it's also like, to me at least, it only really works if you really mean it, you know, like if you really have the goodness in your heart, and the willingness to do something without expecting anything in return without, you know, coz, you know, if it's purely as a tactic, and you're mentally still cutthroat, you're mentally still, you know, emotionally still connected to I'm doing this, so they owe me it just doesn't pan out as well. Is that Is that how you see it as well?

Frank Agin
Yeah, I never, I never keep score. I just believe in the whole notion of karma, or divine intervention or whatever. And, you know, everybody wants to see, goodness, the goodness they do and the outcome to be perfectly aligned, you know, like a string laying on the floor, like a timeline. And I tell people that the things you do, and the things you get, it's like a big ball of yarn, you can't see where it's all going, you can't see these things are being connected. You just have to have to have faith and, and you know, sometimes things will happen for me. And I'll start to trace them back. And they go back to things that are totally unrelated. But just somebody has kicked something in motion. And it might have happened five years ago, 10 years ago, and it just kind of worked its way back around, and it comes back to you. So it's you just you just have to do things for other people and just trust have faith in the process.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. Frank, this has been a great conversation. I've been looking forward to it for some time, I really appreciate the work you've done in this space. It's helped me a lot. And I know it would help our listeners as well. I've already mentioned multiple times the champion, finding the most valuable person, your network. It's a great book, easy, easy read. But a lot of lot packed into a small book, check it out. Frank, anything else you want to share with our listeners in terms of how they can reach out to you or find you connect with you?

Frank Agin
Yeah, two things I'll share. Best way to get ahold of me. You can go to my website, FrankAgin.com, my LinkedIn there, if you'd like to go that route, my email, Facebook, Twitter, my books are listed there and just other things I'm involved with. But the second thing I'll share, and I get this question all the time, what's the one thing I can do to really kind of kickstart my network? And my answer is pretty simple. Find something you're passionate about and find somewhere to volunteer, because when you volunteer, it's just a great way to give back to the community. And I don't care what it is, but the people you go volunteer with care about the same thing. They will find out about you and the people who are there volunteering with you, we'll see you doing it and think wow, that Jeff, he's a great guy. He's, he's on that board. He can't be all bad if he's doing that. So that's my little bit of takeaway advice.

Jeff Ma
I love it. Thank you so much. And thank you to our listeners for sticking with us. We are doing new episodes every week still. So be sure to stay tuned, subscribe, rate our podcast. And as always check out our book Love as a Business Strategy available all over the place. Tell a friend. We really love and appreciate you guys for tuning in all the time. And Frank once again, thank you so much for taking the time today to chat with me. Thank you.

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