Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories with real people in real businesses and understand how love might be a part of how they operate. My guest today has developed a methodology called Think, talk and behave and enables organizations to translate their values into practical and tangible working practices. She designed her playbook as a way to inspire value centered leadership and ignite employee engagement in a measurable way. So I'd like to welcome to the show founder and CEO of Bensouda Consulting Janine Bensouda Janine, how are you today?

Janine Bensouda
I'm doing great, especially after that beautiful introduction. Thank you, Jeff, to be here.

Jeff Ma
Awesome. We talked a little bit before hitting record here. And I'm just so excited to dive into all the things to talk about. But before I get too deep into your, your framework, and what you've come up with over the last eight years, I just want to hear about you first. So if you don't mind, can you share the journey to your, I guess, passion?

Janine Bensouda
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, a little bit about me, I'm a mother of three, I've got a teenage son, actually, two teenage because a 16 year old and, and, and a 13 year old daughter, and a little baby angel. And I, my background is very eclectic, originally from Morocco, but I was born in Gambia and I was raised all over the world and worked in over 30 countries. So my, my journey and my relationship with with kind of love and leadership really started at a very young age, when I look back at it, because I remember, every time we would move countries, I just wanted to feel like I belonged. And so you know, kind of rushing out to find ways to connect with people and, and, you know, I would either look different, speak different have a weird accent, or there was always something that people couldn't put me in that box. And the way that I would work around that would be through music and performing arts. And I realized that when you kind of really connect with people at an emotional level, that's where I was able to really build relationships, even when I couldn't speak the language, or didn't necessarily look like everybody else, or didn't carry the same passport. And so I guess from a very young age, I realized the value of emotional connections with people being really instrumental to being feeling like you belong, and therefore being able to connect with a community. And that was, for me, it was a matter of life or death, because it was survival. It wasn't, you know, something I was just doing as a profession, it was how I could exist in the world, you know, finding and find my place. So, so I was taught by, you know, by teachers of all kinds of ethnicities and backgrounds from, from English and Arabic and French. And I, as I grew up, I thought, my original wish was actually to be a performer. I wanted to be on Broadway, that was like, my, my goal. And when I was younger, I loved singing, I loved performing, however, I was growing up in the Middle East, and that wasn't really a an established industry at that time. And neither was it in my family. To be honest, I was older, there were more expectations or doing a quote unquote, traditional type of a career. So when I got older, and it was time to go to university and say, Ah, can't do you know, can't go and study opera, or although I did study opera, up to a certain level while I was at school, but not at college, then I said, Okay, what I'd like to do is, then I'll be a reporter, I'll be a journalist, and travel the world and tell people story, because again, there, the focus is on connecting with people listening to people, and then, you know, helping them to tell their stories to the world. And that didn't work out for a whole bunch of reasons. And then can you and we're going to ask you this question for somebody like me, what is kind of the most remote type of a profession you would ever see me going into? Like, well, you know, the farthest place for somebody who wants to be on Broadway and interacting with people and behind a camera and, and in the limelight? What would you say?

Jeff Ma
Maybe like accounting. On a desk,

Janine Bensouda
Bingo. So that's where I ended up. There's a there's a, there's a powerful story behind how right and, and it had to do with a decision I made because of love for my family. And a situation that we were going through on my mom's health was at risk. And I'm the oldest of five, and I was the only adult child in the family. And so rather than continuing to pursue my postgraduate degrees in journalism and you know, economics that I was that I was going to do, I decided to stay in Dubai, which was where my parents were living at my family was at the time and take on a job at Citibank

Jeff Ma
So wow, so smart.

Janine Bensouda
spot on so suddenly this you know, person who thought she was going to be bouncing around the world telling stories ended up behind the desk. And at but but I was I was I was okay with my decision because that decision was made out of love. And therefore it was meaningful to me. And then I took it on as a challenge and said, Well, you know, what, if I can't take, I can't put myself in that career, then is there a way to bring emotional connection, performing arts communication log into what I do. And that's kind of where it started. And my journey over the next, especially the first decade of my life, is really significant in helping me understand that if you can bring love into an environment like kind of corporate banking in those days, you know, which was in the early 2000s, and actually the night, the late 90s and early 2000s, then then there is definitely potential to change the world with us.

Jeff Ma
Amazing. And give me an example of like, what how you did I mean, that the late 90s and early 2000s, as I recall, were even more so. I mean, we were so far from how we're talking about it now. So what did that look like to try to fit that into that that square peg in that round? All

Janine Bensouda
right, I'll give you an example. When I joined Citibank, this was this was the clue that was picked up by the kind of the talent development team. And which then led to me getting involved in some very important projects. What happened was, I joined in the summer, and in the summer, typically in Dubai, if you've ever been to the Middle East in the summer, nobody wants to be there in the summer, because it is excruciatingly hot. And you and we are both standing in Houston, and we know what heat is. And that is nothing compared to what it was. Okay, so everybody in their rightful mind packs up and leaves. So I came into the I joined the office, I was like, Hey, everybody, and I was like, Okay, bye. I'm going, here's, here's my work, can you please follow up on all these things. And literally, one after the other, the entire, they posted me in marketing. One after the other, everybody started dumping their, their deliverables on me and the follow up over the summer. So we're off for four weeks, I'm off for four weeks, I'm off for three weeks. So suddenly, I looked around, I was like, okay, so it's like me and the male guy. And that's the marketing department for the next month or so. And I this is my first job, and I'd rather be singing. So what happened was, I realized that what I said, Okay, I gotta leverage what I have. And what I have is an ability to communicate with people, and to tell stories, because remember, journalism, performance is all about, they're about entertaining you through a story. So I said, Okay, use what I've got, I use those skills to, to basically pick up on the projects that everyone left in my lap, and lo and behold, a lot of those involve working with third party vendors, like advertising agencies and other departments within the bank. And what I found was it this was not, you know, like anything deliberate, it was like kind of a lucky chance. But I realized that somehow I was able to understand what people needed, and help them tell their stories better. So by the time the marketing, bonafide marketing departments started to return, they were starting to hear positive feedback about how their, their their projects were going well, and people were pretty satisfied, they understood what was happening, they were their needs were being met, mainly because I was nervous that I was going to screw everything up. So I was talking to people, you know, like reaching out to people frequently asking questions, and really measuring how good they were feeling about things. And by asking them how they're feeling, I started to get different answers. So people saying, well, you know, I feel like we could do a lot better here. Because, you know, nobody really considers this, this, these comments that we get from the customer. And I was just diligently writing everything down, and bringing everything back and, and kind of almost, you know, like, just being almost obsessive about, about using people's feedback and really looking at every word that everybody was saying. And it turns out that listening to people and caring about what they say is actually important to the company, and can actually help you make more informed decisions that have a bigger impact. Now this is you know, this is a 50 year old me telling you this about a 20 year old me you know so I have all I have all the hindsight now of and and all of the benefit of learning from all the great people who've written and researched about this, including yourselves at Softway. So that was kind of how it worked out that I started and then I was thrown into a project to to manage a regional project for for 13 Different countries in Asia Pacific and get everybody to arrive at a decision And on how a model for for something in the contact center should be. And that was my first experience basically kind of having a seat at a almost like a United Nations table, you know, like you put Hong Kong, Guam, India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Singapore together, and you you understand that diversity, equity and inclusion, what that means before Diversity, Equity and Inclusion became a thing and became an actual, you know, method that the companies have to, to, to apply and abide by. But then it was against survival mode, we've got a business objective, how are we going to get, you know, 13 countries with such diverse needs, modes of communication, to actually come to an agreement that people feel confident about, and that is still in the best interest of the business, you know, and can deliver results. So I was thrown into the deep end very quickly. Survival mode.

Jeff Ma
So, fast forward with me, then now to I believe, around eight years ago or more, yeah. And you embarked on developing what you call it, think, talk and behave? Can you talk about that a little bit?

Janine Bensouda
Yeah. I realized over fast forward the kind of 15 years from Citibank, I joined another bank, which was pivotal in my career in my career as a leader, because I didn't realize that I had leadership skills really until, until then, again, kind of by accident, but I was thrown into leadership role where I had to run a contact center. And there were already 50 people there. And there were some very important lessons that I learned there, that then sparked my curiosity. What happened was, you know, how, in your book, Love as a business strategy, talk about the, you know, the, the darkest day when you had to let go of like almost a third of the organization. And I experienced also kind of a darkest day while I was at that, at that leadership role at another bank, in Dubai, where we had to where I was kind of, I was thrust into an organization where I walked in, I was pretty young, and nobody really understood why I was there. And I had zero experience, I had like a few years of experience. So I didn't have any, I felt I didn't have any credibility. What I found was that by building a team, again, based on some of the key love foundations, like listening, compassion, empathy, making people helping people to feel secure, you know, their psychological safety, and inspired and basically having fun, we were able to create some incredible results. So I then became curious about is this something unique to do with either banking as an industry or the Middle East as a part of the world. So I joined a consulting firm. And that's when I did a lot of travel. It's really about 30 countries, and all over the world, in the different organizations, I noticed some familiar and common challenges that organizations were facing. And that was this gap between the vision of the leaders and these objectives that they were that they wanted to accomplish, and that the team's daily operating goals and how how happy people felt and how loved they felt or how unloved they felt. And although this language wasn't cool, you know, to us at the time, I was starting to notice some familiarities between the way people were being treated, and their performance, how well they understood their objectives, and their their, and their performance, how much they were encouraged to speak their truth, and their ability to innovate. And so I started to peel the layers and take notes. And, and I realized that I wanted to really understand a bit more about, you know, brands and the value and brand identity, and why is it so difficult for that identity to translate into the organization? Why are the staff so confused about their role in in the organization? So I worked at Ogilvy. And when when I when I worked at Ogilvy and worked on some great accounts, you know, like American Express and DHL and Fahie. And you know, I realized that there was there was a communication gap that was that was missing between the some of the intangible words and values, words like love, and how that related to measurable daily working practice. And that's when I realized that I would like to spend time developing a model that could help us translate words and values like, love and transparency. innovation into measurable ways that people in an organization think which could be translated into aspects like policy procedure, decision making and prioritization. That is tangible, and that you can that can be documented and referenced right? And then into the way we speak, because as you and I really know very well, that if you walk into a meeting at a company, and you'd listen in for a minute, you can start to get a sense of the culture. If you walk into a meeting, and people are saying things I asked, awesome. What do you think, Jeff? Hey, we haven't heard from Ginni and what does she think? Oh, awesome idea, did we think about this differently, who we left out of this is very different gonna give you a very different vibe, from more than walking into an organization where first of all, it's mainly silent, and only certain characters are speaking, and where people are looking at each other. And there's an energy and people are asking questions like, What do you mean, that's not how we do things? Well, we've always done this before, immediately, you can tell a lot. So there's the talk. And then the third part is Behave. And the behavior is reflected in both. So human behavior and interactions with each other with each other, as well as the the organization behavior, which can be translated into things like your processes, and how are your processes designed and structured? Because like, you talk about, you know, that culture, eats some strategy, a strategy eats culture, I can't remember where you said, Culture eats something for lunch? Yes.

Jeff Ma
It's it's culture eats strategy for breakfast is the famous saying,

Janine Bensouda
yes, you sir. And then you added to that behavior eats culture for lunch, right? So right, so in behavior, I knew there was eating, and there was this. So the behavior is really where every day daily actions that people take, make a difference. So that's the third part of things to talk and behave.

Jeff Ma
That's awesome. And you're speaking my language, obviously, I think there's, we knew coming into this, that we'd be aligned on so many of these ideas. But I'm curious, what kind of you call it a, I guess, a methodology or helped me understand, like, how think talk and behave? manifests as a practice or as a, like, how do you measure these things? How do you tangibly turn these into like, how do you bring this forth to a business?

Janine Bensouda
That's a great question. There, there are two parts to it, there's the setting the whole thing up, which is basically the translation process. We'll call that part one. And then the part two is the maintenance and governance of this, which is kind of how it becomes a part of the just the daily operating model, and how it's continuously improved. And you know how you keep a Kaizen in there. So part one, which is the most difficult part, that's the moment where you go in and say, Guys, what do we actually mean by love, okay, now, love is a business strategy you have, you have six categories that you've just defined, for how love can translate, and, and one, it's so it's kind of like, getting into that space where you're in, in a workshop mode. The way that this methodology think talk behave works is that it slices the organization by departments so that it can get to a very specific and relevant conversation around my daily work as an accountant versus my daily work as somebody in procurement versus somebody who works in legal versus one who, somebody who works in sales, because my objectives and performance goals and my processes, and the policies that I use are very different depending on what my functional area is. And that's where I found when I would work in, you know, the over 150 organizations that have I went into and looked at, this is where I would find that the the argument or the the idea would start to crumble was everybody could understand it at a generic level that we get that we need to be customer focused. And we get that we need to be transparent. But then the guy in in accounting will be like, I get it, but I don't actually really know what I need to do differently tomorrow, like when I produce this report, or when I do this daily data entry. And then you go to marketing, and they're like, I get it as well. But what do I change about the way I do my, you know, my budgeting today? So this, the way that this method works is it starts it goes top down and bottoms up, a top down first to understand at the highest level, what is the organization willing to put their money where their mouth is like, and this is where you have the hard conversations with the CEOs. And I've had many of those where CEOs will say are saying something, but they're really doing something. And Brian Currie from Gallup produced a great report and Harvard Business Review wrote about this in an article called the wrong ways to strengthen culture which is true really powerful. He, Brian Currie calls it the see do gap. And apparently 87% of employees do not understand what their leadership mean by their or their values. And even worse, of those who understand it, 69% of them don't believe it, because they say, Yeah, that's what they say. But that's not what I'm doing on a daily basis. And that's actually called the say do gap. So these workshops basically are structured. So you start with the big question to the leadership and say, What do you really mean by innovation? Because, you know, if you mean if what you mean by innovation is that you're, you're testing out different ideas every day? Are you ready for the consequences of that? Which means write offs, because they're going to be ideas that don't work? And then how are you going to handle that? What are the consequences is going to be for the staff who came up with those ideas? And how are you going to handle the hours that were dedicated to that, so you have those so once, once you have that definition, at the at the at the senior level, we then work with each of the different functional areas with a cross section, you know, diverse representation of the people who work in those areas and say, Alright, of course, you've done your homework, take a look at their, their their policies, their processes. So you come to the table with all that and say, now, now that we've understood kind of directionally where this is going, how would this translate into our work in this specific department? Given that these are the our 10? Most critical processes, policies, procedures, how would it translate? And then the team themselves have to answer this question, and it can be painful, it's not easy, it takes some time. But the pain is worthwhile, because the pain then forces you to actually identify who you are, and how you're going to do things. And once you've identified it, and are able to articulate it, then you can step back and say, Okay, now we can measure this, and this is where the measurement comes in. Because then it's easy. It's like, and we keep it very simple. Three points, either, yeah, we're already doing that today. Or we're not doing it. But we are in the process of changing to and moving towards that or note, we're not doing it and I haven't thought about. And that then allows us to give you some pretty graphs and some pretty representations and, and summaries of how close are you and aligned with which values across which president you can cut it so many different ways, those become great dashboards to help you quickly get a sense of where the biggest pain points are. And then you can go in so those are two of the most critical outputs of those workshops is first, the clarity and definition of how it translates into think topic. And secondly, a measurement of where we are visa vie that. So that's the part one.

Jeff Ma
The when you when you're measuring the things that they're doing and working on and not doing, is that off of like a list of criteria and questions that you have? Or is it something that they decide on in terms of behaviors that they want to do

Janine Bensouda
a combination of both? So we've developed like a, a series a kind of a facilitation framework that goes through some critical questions that need to be considered. And then based on how those questions are answered, It might veer off different in different directions based on that. So we're asking the questions to find out, you know, how best to then navigate. And then in the workshops, they, you know, you we've prepared accordingly. So we've taken a look at, you know, how are they being measured? What are their KRAs and OKRs? Or whatever they're measuring? What is impacting business? What's most relevant? And then, which are the processes that have the biggest impact on that, you know, gone through kind of all of that, who are their clients? have we spoken to them not spoken to them? Put all that together. So by the time we get to the workshop, there's been a lot of homework done to kind of bring all the relevant material to the table, and then ask those important questions and start to be able to measure.

Jeff Ma
I love it. I think, you know, like you mentioned up top, you know, we talked about the world being in this state where these types of conversations are necessary, and people are looking for these types of changes that they can practically apply. And one of my greatest kind of joys is in doing this show is like finding the all the different ways that people are approaching kind of the same larger problems, right? Because we're all trying to create, just as we say it, you know, bring humanity back to the workplace. And there's so many ways to tackle that. And I love that how yours is centered kind of around, stringing together the values and the things that that an organization really wants to do and wants to be experienced by the people and really bring it down from the top and up, like you said, from the bottom into one place where people can actually Will you kind of get a grip on what's actually happening and build that like tangibility is such an important kind of aspect from what I'm hearing?

Janine Bensouda
Yeah. You know, Jeff, one of the, one of the moments I love the most is when people walk into these meetings and are looking at me, I remember, like legal teams, especially like some of the more technical areas coming in saying, really seriously, I don't have time for these kind of conversations, I don't know what this has to do with me like values, you all take care of values of like your business of like, I've got serious work to do. And then by the end of that, like, literally being the strongest allies, and being the people who are saying, Oh, my gosh, we get this and we see how critical we are to making this happen. Like, they leave their understanding that there's no way the organization can ever truly embrace the values and deliver and be aligned, because it's all about alignment, right? It's aligning, when we're not going anywhere, and telling anybody who to be, we're just helping provide some tools and frameworks so that people can better articulate who they are, and align themselves towards that. So they're, they're there, they feel like they're creating that, a worthwhile experience. And love for me, in all of this, because, you know, we've seen this, that leadership is so critical to creating that environment for to empower people with the give them the mic and allow them to speak up. And I see my role very much as a translator, I think, the most important thing I've ever been able to do in my life, and I don't, you know, think that I've done anything incredible, but I think that translation I'm I am equally comfortable sitting, you know, like rolled up sleeves or on the floor, eating off of the same dish, you know, work with, with people and in certain parts of the world, and then going up to the boardroom half an hour later, and representing them and saying and saying, I know you guys need to hear this and in, in quantitative terms, or you need to hear how this impacts your, you know, XYZ language. However, I need to also let you know how being able to connect and deliver this message to the people who are actually doing it is critical. One of the first things I remember doing when I joined that bank, you know, saying after Citibank, I got this, this this job that I was like, way beyond what I was qualified to do. And in one of the first meetings, I asked, you know, like, what, what are the problems, and somebody said, that leadership don't understand what our customers need. And you know, and, and they're so high up and, and just look at the organization chart. And I looked at the organization chart, and I suddenly realized something, I looked at this pyramid, and I said, Hang on a second. There is such a long gap between like the CEO and the customers are at the bottom. I said, Why are we putting the customers upon, and we flip it. And we said, From now on, we are going to show our org chart the opposite way. So we're going to put our customers at the top, and what do they need, and we're going to start to design our organization around them. So if they say what they need is, you know, on the spot decisions about like, if they call up and they have an issue with their credit card, then the first person they speak to needs to have that empowerment. They don't have to spend half an hour, you know, like three days or five days going all the way through the organization to come back. And it was it was one of those simple little changes. That was a complete paradigm shift and just how I looked at things.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, I think I think more and more leaders and organizations have recognized the upside down pyramid as an important aspect. I think a big thing that that I find myself having to work with is that when you flip it upside down, it's a little more work in and there's still something left to do there besides just saying Oh, because it coincides with a lot of customer first mentality that already exists. Oh, customers first, obviously. Yeah. But I think what people don't often realize is that flipping the pyramid upside down also means you actually have to put your people first actually, you have to put the kind of the the well being the inclusion, the exclusion of and the empathy for your, your contributors, the last the last row, every last one of them has that become kind of the center of all your focus. And I don't know if all leadership and organizations understand that fully in their quest to satisfy the customer that they kind of missed. They lose sight of that. I think

Janine Bensouda
it's a really good point. And sometimes having a tool what I've found is like the thing talk behavior where they can measure it is kind of like holding up a mirror. So they're able All too, to see when that gap is really big and when when they're just not. I mean, think about the Gallup report, right that only 30, you know, 20% of our, of global on a global level of employees are engaged. That means that a few considered like 3 billion people are actively employed. That means 2.4 billion people are not engaged. Isn't that something to be concerned about? Like, they need more love?

Jeff Ma
Yep. That's why we do what we do. Right. Now, absolutely, I think there's so much more to dig into here. Honestly, I feel like, you know, when I think about think, talk and behave, and I look at love as business strategies, like Seneca, which is what we do, it's the equivalent of your, your part one of your activation in your thing. There's so many ways in which were very different, but we're very much targeting the same thing. So I think there's, there's so much more to dig into that. But before, I guess we say goodbye for today, I did want to leave some space for you to talk about, just in general, I know you've been talking about Think, Talk and Behave, but also just just talking about Bensouda, and kind of like what, what the listeners, you know, might need to know about you.

Janine Bensouda
I thank you so much for that space, though, one part of what I do that I haven't had a chance to discuss right now is that I do a lot of work with youth leaders as well. I believe that, you know, this, that you know, that you're seeing going up the value chain. So I believe that going up the value chain is not actually going farther up into the boardroom is actually going to our youth and and reaching them earlier on in their learning journeys and experiences. Because I think when they are equipped with more of the language and, and the permission to lead with love, and to know that discussing love and caring about another, you know, your your your classmate is a great sign of leadership, the sooner we will have better leaders out there in the world. And so I do, I've got a program called Future Leaders. And we work and there's a there's a kind of, there's a pro profit side of it, and there's a not for profit side of it. So there's pro bono work that I do there. And I do work, I'm very passionate about the pro bono work I do in in, in, you know, kind of economically challenged environments, where, you know, by helping give access to opportunities for learning and access to opportunities for internships, and, and just connections with mentors, that we are giving one of the most valuable gifts that we can give as people like us who I believe in to a certain extent we have succeeded and aspects of our life of realizing and recognizing and having so many blessings and privileges. So that is something that is very close to my heart. And that I do with a great deal of passion. It's a it's a youth leadership program, called the future leaders. And my aim is really to build this further into a community that connects our youth with mentors, learning opportunities, and internship opportunities all around the world.

Jeff Ma
That's amazing. I couldn't agree more. I love that that idea of the value chain starting with the youth. I'm so on board with that. How how can how can people if they're interested in learning more get involved? Where should they go?

Janine Bensouda
Yes, absolutely. So I am on LinkedIn, there's a BENSOUDA consulting, they can find me you can find me on Instagram, we also have a website, which has been sued a consulting.com. And also future leaders club. And, you know, I'm very, I'm very responsive. And so if you reach out to me on any of the social media, I will definitely get back to you. I love collaboration, I like you just you know, every time I meet somebody who's doing work in this field, I get so excited because I can just taste the future happening and I can just taste this change coming about. And it just means that there's so many different ways that we can collaborate and and create this economy of scale that is going to make make a huge difference. So thank you for the great work that that you and your team are doing.

Jeff Ma
No thank you and and you know, I'm still here rooting for your Broadway career to take. That's never never too late. It's never too late. So I say

Janine Bensouda
thank you, Jeff. I have one fan.

Jeff Ma
I'm there for you. I'll be the first ticket holder. And thank you to our listeners as well. Thank you for always tuning in and be sure if you have not yet of course check out our book Love as a Business Strategy book.

Janine Bensouda
Love it. Thank you so much, so honest and so powerful.

Jeff Ma
There you have it folks, droppers. view that sounds just like that on Amazon that helps us as well. To our listeners, and thank you. But subscribe and rate our podcast, tell a friend. And at the end of the day, you know, don't forget to try to find and share with us the stories of love in your life and in your workplace. So with that, Janine, thank you so much for joining me today.

Janine Bensouda
It's my pleasure. And we'll see everybody next week.