Brittany Heflin
BCG just came out with this recent publication on generative leadership. And essentially it talks about generative leaders leading equally with the head, heart and hands. There was a lot of research around a lot of data. And what they found is that the heart in particular, is what people want most, and what leaders do least.

Jeff Ma
Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from, we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. And as always, I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm joined with my co host today, Chris Pitre. Hello, Chris. How are you today?

Chris Pitre
Hello, Jeff. And hello, everybody. Just say hello back is doing wonderful. I am doing wonderful. Thank you for asking Jeff. And forgive me the place the answer fully.

Jeff Ma
I mean, it sounded done to me. So I moved on. I apologize. Chris, you know how this works. We love to have conversations with guests that have stories, experiences, expertise, passions, and today, of course, is another good one. Our guest today is Brittany Heflin. And she is a certified leadership coach with over 10 years of experience as an HR organizational effectiveness, effectiveness professional. And just currently the people strategy and coaching officer at Boston Consulting Group. I'd like to welcome Brittany to the show. How are you Brittany?

Brittany Heflin
Hi, great, I am doing great.

Jeff Ma
She took notes and she executed.

Chris Pitre
Brittney learning.

Jeff Ma
You know, regardless of anyone's current roles and current, you know, activities, I always want to start from the same point. Can you share with us your passion and where it comes from the journey that got you to it?

Brittany Heflin
So, I love this because I was just asked a really interesting question not too long ago about my passion and some coaching practice I was doing. And it's really funny because I had never connected this all the way back to high school, which I have to do, because Chris is on with me. But I did and that question, I just something really popped up. So I'm gonna go all the way back to high school where Chris and I started our journey together, and then had some more times where we ran into each other. And we can get into that. But, um, so all the way back in high school. And this, you know, sounds a little bit, sometimes funny, but I was on the dance team, and then became the captain of the dance team, my senior year. And it's the last time so the question that I was asked was when's the last time you felt just as passionate as you do about the work you do right now around leadership. And I went all the way back to then, which was a long time ago. And I think I went back to it because it actually really connects to what I do today. And if I think about the leadership, that I was able to step into sort of leadership and practice, I loved it. I mean, and it's all the things you think about with leadership, galvanizing a team to work together, pulling together different skills, you know, that are in varying levels, we had a dance team of about 100 different people with all different backgrounds, some had had a ton of dance experience, some had had very little, but you needed to rally them around sort of a Northstar, and get the team working together, to then bring them together and deliver something beautiful and advance. And so I go back to that because I really enjoyed being the leader in that role. And then I think through my time now today, that's led me to the passion that I have for leadership and how important I think leadership is in the world, quite honestly, as well as in organizations.

Jeff Ma
I love that love that origin story. I think that's always my favorite analogy, like sports teams, competition teams, those types of groups that get together to really rally behind like a strong objective and like work together to push each other. I mean, that's essentially what we want in the workplace as well. Right? I think somehow we've gotten a focus on culture and then turned into oh, we're all family. But I mean, families don't get things done for the most part, right. So I love I love that your leadership journey starts back with something like that because I completely agree. I think that's that's that's where you get a lot done with very little sometimes. And that's that's where the real magic happens, right.

Chris Pitre
And I'm just gonna take us down the rabbit hole for a little bit because not just because Britney and I went to high school together and I just because my sister was also on that same dance team before Britney, join that. And I would just because I pull the rope on the spring show and I got to see all of the rehearsals and the prep that goes into making, you know, a dance a dance. But what I can say is compared to other sports compared to other teams, to me, dance is the pinnacle of teamwork, because on the football team, nobody has to throw the ball the same way as the next person at the same time with the same movement with the same sort of spin on the rest of nothing. But with a dancing, everybody on that floor has to be doing the same thing at the same time, the same way for that dance to be seen as effective, successful or beautiful from that of the audience, right. And so to me, hearing you talk about that experience being the captain of over 100, teenage girls, teenagers, right, who are all sort of their different, you know, different dance styles, different dance backgrounds, all that. And being able to come together to do the same movement at the same time, in the same spot is, to me always the work of magic. And just being behind the scenes and seeing that come together. It's like nothing you've ever seen. The best, the best sound of the world is hearing dancers dance with no music, because all you hear is the feet hitting the stage. And it's all coming together at same time. And it's just like a nice little beat that's sort of steady. That was the coolest experience for going back to that time. Rabbit Hole.

Brittany Heflin
And I love that. And I'll add to that just a little bit back to my origin story. And connecting the dots to what I do today. Is there is a difference I agree from sports seems to dance. And because in sports teams, it's always winning equals winning the game, right? And then dance. Yes, there is an element of that there's competition. But it's all judgment at the end of the day, right? It's people sitting in front and saying, Hey, Judge, I'm judging you on this. And that was something is so so to be really vulnerable here. Like I was not the best dancer, I should not have been captain. But I loved leading a team. And I felt really passionate about pulling together the heart of a team. And to this day, I went back recently, you know, this is what you do. When you get older, your mom, your parents are like, get all your stuff out of my house. But anyway, I went back and I read through some old notes of just what people said about, you know, the leadership and the bringing the team together. And I think there's something about reframing what winning means for the team. Right? And, and so there, you can really do that and dance because did we feel that we made, you know, a beautiful choreography and something you know, that we can be proud of? That can be winning? Versus did we win every competition, right? And so it's a little bit easier to do that reframe of what winning really means. And something like dance or an art, so to speak. Versus in sports, sometimes.

Jeff Ma
You brought up something super important to me, which is that, you know, you kind of mentioned back then that Oh, you shouldn't have been captain, because you weren't the best dancer. And that's such, you know, I'm curious, your thoughts on that today in the workplace? Because, you know, should the, you know, should the best, you know, skilled person be the leader and vice versa? Should the leader have the most skills because, you know, there are other skills in play as well, when it comes to leadership, right, the skills of leadership, which aren't always going to be the dancing or in the case of workplace, the technical skills, or you know, the People's, all those things. So like, how's that changed? Now, for you? That perspective?

Brittany Heflin
Yeah. Yeah, that's such a great question. And it's, I'm like, oh, long lives, the debate of you know, do we put a technical person in a leadership job? Can a technical person be a leader? So I sort of stand on the middle of this? Because I do think. So for me, I learned that you can be a leader without the technical skills, and I absolutely still believe that's true. I've also seen people step into leadership roles without the technical skills, and then think that they know best and not leverage your team. So really, they're going into the role probably without good technical skills or good leadership skills, and then that's just, you know two bad things coming together. But I do think that you, you can be a good technical expert, and a good leader. And so I think that it's, it's really what you bring though, and that leadership and I think you have to learn how to use your team like so sometimes I think what's happening technical experts, it's hard to let go of that right. And so, you know, and going all the way back to the dance world, I think you can have a really great dancer as captain. But if they're only focused on themselves, and they're only focused on, how do I have the best solo or what not, then that's, that's not really leading a team, you know, you're, you're doing well, and you're winning, but you're not pulling the team together to win. And so I so anyway, it's that doesn't exactly answer the question, but I think I have, I have sort of a flexible view on that. Right. And I think there's lots of opinions in the leadership theory space of technical versus non technical leaders.

Jeff Ma
Sure, absolutely. I think it's not a decided upon answer for that, for sure.

Brittany Heflin
Yeah, exactly.

Chris Pitre
Yeah. But I do you think that there is something in that, you know, how can a non technical leader be respected inside of a leadership position, right, and like that, what's required, right. And I know that relationship, of course, is fundamental to having that respect, earned, but curious to hear if you've seen any sort of ways, or tactics or strategies that non technical leaders employ to get that respect and sort of, you know, become that leader that even technical people might cherish despite their lack of maybe having the same expertise?

Brittany Heflin
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a few things come to mind off the cuff for me, right, I can see, you know, and in my previous company, there was a lot of cross functional kind of leadership. And I think that's actually one of the things that I think can be really done really well in a company, again, depending on the person, but some of the people that I saw succeed best are those that came in, and were humble and said, I don't know this, and I'm going to need all of you, right. And so really leveraging that team approach to say, I can't do this on my own, I'm going to need your, your, your help with this. So I think humility is huge, like as a key first step coming in and saying that, and then following up, so not just saying, I need to lean on you, but following up by learning. And so it's, it's a, it's a balance between, I'm going to be humble, I need I need your help. But I'm also not just going to stay in my cave, and not learn what you're doing. I'm going to become an expert by learning through you tell me what I need to be reading, right? Tell me what I need to be doing me, Chris, I'm thinking back to a leader I know, we worked with before, who was a non technical and ended up being like, out in the spotlight as one of the best IT leaders, you know, that you can think of with no IT background, and I think a lot of that came from humility and leaning in to learn, and depending on his team, to really teach him what he needed to know. And team all the way down to the frontline, I should say, listening all the way down, not just the people around. Yeah.

Chris Pitre
No, I think that's a great example. And I know, part of part of sort of learning to be a leader. You know, I truly believe in the statement that leadership development is personal development, right? Like, you really have to know who you are, because you lead from who you are, and not what you know, right? In many cases. And so I'm really curious to know, like, or hear your, your perspective on like, developing the person as a leader, right, like really, like, you know, getting beyond the technical skills, but like getting into that space, where you as a leader really understand your leadership style, but also it works for you, it works for others, etc. So I'm curious to know, as a as a coach, but also, as someone who's just been in this workspace in the workspace for so long, what you've seen that works, what you've seen that, you know, really pools that person into the leadership position.

Brittany Heflin
Yeah, I mean, that's such a great question. And I've been I've been thinking actually recently, just due to some work I've been doing around like, what is leadership development and, and today's world, you know, and I think, just just to speak, like, frankly, I think I think we're seeing some really cool stuff happen in that space. But we haven't quite cracked the nut in terms of what does it really take? What's it look like? I think you still see a lot of your typical, I'm going to take the leader out of their context. I'm going to teach them how to be a leader. And then I'm going to throw them back into their day to day context and hope that they've maintained most of what they most of what they've learned and apply it right and then there's lots of tactics to try to get them to apply it and accountablity and coaches and all of that. And so I think there has to be something and I think some of the best leaders figure out what is my own personal leadership development journey, just like you said, it's very personal. So there's tons of leadership frameworks out there, right. But I think at the end of the day, it's what does that mean for me? What does that mean for my company? What does that mean for my stakeholders, right? And so and then take time to actually sit and reflect on that, and ask for feedback constantly. So like, build your own plan, which is why I do love coaching? Because that is what it does. I mean, it's, it sets you up. When the coach asks you, as a leader, what do you need to focus on? What are your stakeholders leaving you to focus on? And how do we work through that, and it's very much colliding with what they're doing day to day versus taking them out of their context, and then throwing them back in. So I think that's what it means to me. I think that's some of the best ways to do it. And I think the best leaders figure out how to do that it's not that they attended some awesome course, or this really cool experience, where they climbed Mount Everest, and they have this enlightening, and some of them will, but a lot of times, I think it's just those that that really take the time to make it their own. And then think about what they need to do going forward. And it's a journey, by the way, not a sprint. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Agree.

Jeff Ma
Yeah. Brittany, I'm curious in your, you know, in your experience, through coaching, and all the things you're seeing in the modern era, like in the I guess, I shy away from saying this post pandemic, but essentially, in the current state of things. Are you seeing any, like trends when it comes to leadership, coaching, executive coaching and things like in the leaders you work with or from hearsay? I'm just curious, what's going on out there? Like, what's the big one of the big problems or the big misses that people are not getting now? And what like, where are you starting with people here?

Brittany Heflin
Yeah, it's a great, great question. So one, one area that's grown tremendously, I think, since the pandemic is this element of diving into social issues, right, and leaders really needing to focus on that. So Boston Consulting Group just came out with a new publication on a new kind of leadership perspective, called Generative Leadership. And it really talks about this element of meaning to basically leave everything you touch better. So making the world making the people that you work with better based on your interaction. And it's, if you think about it, it's quite a quite a daunting task, right to ask people to do that. But I actually think that's where we're headed. Right. And I think you're seeing that, in particular, leaders not only are having to still do good business, and, you know, have good economics and bring bringing good shareholder profits, but they're also having to lean into other things going on in the world, right? With all the societal issues that have come up, you're seeing a huge rise in employee activism, and how do leaders respond to that, right? How do they respond to employees feeling very strongly about things like LBGTQ rights and Black Lives Matter? And how do we think employees because of this world we're living in to post pandemic is work life integration, everything is coming even more together. And I don't want to have to separate who I am outside of work. And work, right. And so and I'm gonna bring that up. And Gen Z, by the way, like is a huge, I mean, they're just going to rock our world, like these leaders. So the ones that are on the forefront of this and ready and prepared are going to be in the best position because Gen Z got no time for it. They're like, bye, you know, you're not doing what I want you to do see later. And so that's huge. I think there's, there's like this. I hate to say like old school, new school, but for lack of better words, I'm going to say it it's like the old school of you know, leadership is about kind of driving profits and getting your team to do their best and there was an element of inspiration and motivation and that to write and purpose even had started to come to know I need you to actually do a lot more and that's the new school way of thinking to be on the profits. Hey, how are we helping the communities that We're operating in leaders, how are we making sure that human rights are thought of on a day to day basis, all of those things. And so, and by the way, it's not a trade off of one for the other, it's you still have to do both. So I have a lot of empathy for leaders right now, too, they have a lot on their plates, to be able to tackle both of these.

Jeff Ma
When I think of that old school style, the first thing my head goes to is that just also just like the complete kind of lack of regard for mental health, I guess, as an issue. Like, that just wasn't a thing back then is like, in today, that's a very real thing, a very and what better understood thing and a factor that every workplace has to think about? Are you seeing that pop up in your work as well?

Brittany Heflin
Huge. I mean, and again, I think it's interesting how society trends are bleeding into the workplace, right? I mean, I think that you're seeing a rise in mental health just being talked about in general, like, let's be real, right? 20 years ago, we just weren't talking about it as much you weren't talking about, I stopped by my therapist, and, you know, I'm, I'm doing XYZ. And so we're seeing and again, this goes back to the integration between work and life. And so I think you're seeing that more, and then I think it's a question of so then what role does do employers play in that, right? Because at the end of the day, if your mental health isn't at the right state, you're not bringing your best self to work. So there's a lot of learning, I think, and that, and some employers are responding fantastically, and giving great benefits and, and giving mental health days and, you know, all of these cool things that I'm saying, and so I think it's, it's becoming really holistic in that regard in terms of how you view your employee. So absolutely, that's a big thing on the rise.

Chris Pitre
Nice. And I'm going to that, you know, same sort of old school, new school, I think what I see a huge difference is old school ways of leadership are really focused on intent, whereas these new schools are really looking at the impact, right, like assessing, what am I creating by asking for this, or commanding this or directing this? Or as when you see I even judge a lot of the responses when they're DEI issues that serve us in the public? How are leaders responding? Are they still defending their intent? Or are they really addressing and owning the impact that they've caused and sort of finding solutions on how to move forward? Right, and I think that there's, there's that rub that I see often in clients, and I'm, I'm curious to know, if you've seen that, or if you, you know, want to take that deeper and, you know, share examples of what you've seen, and just your work and, and even some of the relationships and experiences that you've had?

Brittany Heflin
Yeah, that's a really, really great point. And I think it gets back to to, to the, to the audience and to the employees. Right. So if you think about this Gen Z, quite even, you know, the millennials, they, I don't want to make it seem like they don't care about intent, but they're being pretty brutally honest. They are holding these leaders accountable. And so I think, you know, with that, and, you know, the stories I've seen as I actually I really feel for both sides, I feel for the leaders, because in some ways, and this might sound a little old school, I do think they're in a tough position, right, you're in a really tough position to figure out everything right. And so I think the intent can be learning, right, and potentially making mistakes. So there is an element of like, how much room do we allow for mistakes to be made? And what's our willingness to, to forgive? Quite honestly, when mistakes are made? But and then on the other side with the leaders? How quickly can they correct those mistakes? Right, and what does that look like, to your point on impact that they have? So I think there's gonna be a little bit of empathy and regard for for both sides with this rub as you speak as we as we continue on.

Chris Pitre
Yeah. I agree. I think that I mean, it's a balancing act. And kudos to any leader that has it all figured out. I haven't met that person yet. But if they're out there, if they're listening, please reach out to us. We want to, we want to speak to you. We want to talk to you. You should be writing a book you should take over this podcast even but I think that that is going to be with us for a while to be honest. Because, again, when you have again, was the Shakespeare heavy is the head that wears the crown, right? Like, you know, when you have all of this sort of riding on you like it's very easy to make a mistake to somebody. All right, at some point you can disappoint somebody right? And, you know, knowing how unforgiving a side can be, especially in a polarized workforce where we add the political factors, we add the, you know, social factors, when you add sort of power dynamics, when you add all of these things to the equation, these this intersectionality, if you will, it does create the perfect storm for all sorts of things to happen, right. And, you know, in talking with some leaders, we've seen that they're not always accounting for employee activism, as you brought up earlier, they're not, they're not thinking about, Oh, my gosh, I'm gonna have to, you know, answer to my own people, let alone the press or the community or the public. Right. And I think that's a new sort of crisis that many crisis leaders have to now think through is, how are employees not going to deal with this? And are we going to create a situation where we don't have them, just by doing this one thing? That wasn't true 20 years ago, like you said, like, not only was mental health kind of thing, but the fact that your workforce would exercise their power to not show up and take the ramifications of what that was, when this no pay losing a job, etc. I mean, you look at Goldman Sachs, you know, 50% of their workforce showed up by people back to the office. It's like, do you fire people? Yeah. What do you what do you do?

Brittany Heflin
Right? I mean, I'm not such a great example of this employee activism in a way of like, I'm not gonna do that. Right. And, and you see that there, there's, there was a, you know, previously a lot more compliance, I think, to some of these things that maybe, you know, as employees, we don't feel we're right. But I think, again, the New Age is coming up. And you mentioned something, one thing that I love, which is some of the best leaders, I think, are those that can recognize what you call these moments of impact. And I call them, you know, I've called them beacon moments in the past, the ones that can proactively go, I think this is going to be a beacon moment. So I need to think I need to pause, I need to reflect, I need to sit and this for a bit before I react. Because it's a beacon moment, those are the best ones, because they usually are able to recognize that know it, and then usually respond appropriately, appropriately to where there's a positive impact, or at least a neutral impact, right, where you don't have people walking out the door. So yeah, I think those are huge.

Chris Pitre
No, no, it just, it seems like it's such, this is such a pivotal one, this is an exciting time to be in this space. Because there's so, so much happening that wasn't true 20-30 years ago, and nobody's figured it out. Nobody has the silver bullet. Nobody had, like, even we don't our book doesn't cover everything, right. And I think that there's, there's so many aspects of this that's so complicated, so complex, and honestly, moving target, right? As society changes as the pandemic happens, right? Like, we don't know what's around the corner, right? You know, changes the only constant. And so it's just really exciting to be in this space. And so I really want to hear from you. And this is something that I'm just personally passionate about. But for those who are listening, who are not yet in what I would call leadership positions, meaning they have the formal authority, as well as people managing responsibility. They oversee budgets and sort of critical things related to a business, what would you advise them to really think about or consider, as they, you know, potentially in the future, you know, no matter how soon or far that is, take on a leadership position, right? What should they be getting ready for? What should they be looking to grow in personally or otherwise?

Brittany Heflin
Yeah, absolutely. So again, I think it goes back down back to what we talked about previously, which is it's really based on the individual right, so the first thing I would say is, start by asking for feedback from those around you, whether you have direct reports or not right, getting into this rhythm of you know, Hey, Chris, I just got off this call, you know, how did I do? You know, what could I have done better? What did I do well, like the day to day stuff, and start collecting that and seeing what themes come up for you, and then what you might need to work on. And then I think there's there's listening to that, but listening to what's on the mind of employees, especially as you go all the way down to the frontline and those coming into the workforce and what are going to be some of the things that will be top of mind for them. And consider what does that mean for me as a leader, you know, how can I have an impact and That way, I think I think those are really critical things. Right? So it's kind of setting forth your own leadership development plan, so to speak, and what are the things I need to work on? What am I hearing from others? And then what are the trends that I'm seeing? And then lastly, I would say like those are the people usually to the can actually really have an influence on some of those top leaders, right, and be the be the in between be the conduit between sort of your, your big employee base and your top leadership. And I've seen some people do that really well, and say, Hey, here's what I'm seeing. And actually, I think that's what sets those people up the best because they they're able to, to see both sides. You know, we talked about the empathy on both sides, they're like that person, sometimes it can be really daunting to because they're taking on that burden of empathy. But if they can do it well, and they can position themselves to have influence in both directions, I think they'll be set for the future.

Chris Pitre
solid advice Yes,

Jeff Ma
agreed. Brittany, it's been a fast 30 minutes somehow. And so I really appreciate you like I was like, Whoa, time. Wow. Because I mean, all the insights have been really, really helpful, really, really thought provoking. If the audience has any other questions or wants to get a hold of you, what can they how can they reach you? What's a good way?

Brittany Heflin
Yeah, my LinkedIn is the best way. And so I try to stay fairly active on there. So you know, Brittany, Heflin is the best place to find me on LinkedIn. Would love to chat. I am clearly super passionate about this topic. So we'd love to keep the conversation going.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. You're in good company here. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for joining us and sharing all that thought, all that wisdom. All that advice.

Brittany Heflin
Thank you guys. Appreciate it.

Chris Pitre
Thank you.

Jeff Ma
And thank you to our listeners. As always, we're putting on new episodes every week. And we haven't missed one in a very long time. I'm so impressed ourselves. Thanks. Big shout out to our executive producer Maggie's keeping us going check out our book, if you haven't Love as a Business Strategy. It's still available on Amazon. It's still a best seller. We love it. You'll love it. And subscribe. Rate our podcast if you can give us that feedback. Tell your friends and Chris, thank you for joining me today. It's been a pleasure. With that, we'll see everybody next me