John Baldino  
HR has been trained to be afraid. And so because it's been trained to be afraid, it will be risk averse. And it will also be over the top proactive about and not putting myself, employees and the company in a place where something could happen.

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from, we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm here to have those conversations and hear stories from real people about real business about the real world. And my guest today is John Baldino. John, with 30 years of human resource experience, John has been have John has a passion, I would say, of setting contributors and companies up for success. And he's been going strong at that for, like I said, 30 years, so I'm really excited. He's giving an eye roll right now. 30 years, it's a good thing, John. John is a keynote speaker for US and international conferences where he shares content and thoughts on leadership, collaboration, innovation, employee success, organization, design and development, as well as inclusion and diversity. He's the winner of both the Greater Philadelphia HR person and consultant of the Year award. He's also the co host of the popular LinkedIn live webcast. But first coffee. John is currently the President of Human Resources, a global human resources consulting firm. And of course, as a father, he's the proud dad of three amazing young adults is how how you frame it. So welcome to the show. John, how are you today?

John Baldino  
Doing? Well, Jeff, thank you so much for having me. And yes, I have to frame it as young adults, because I don't think they like it when I call them children anymore. They're not so.

Jeff Ma  
But they're always kids to us. Yeah, that's how I feel.

John Baldino  
And I mean, my parents still refer to me as their kids. So but I don't know, I don't know that, that my offspring feel the same way.

Jeff Ma  
John, thanks for joining today. And I really want to open with you, John Baldino. And you really centered around a conversation about passion. I know. In my intro, I'm talking about you have a passion of setting people up for success. But can you can you build on that or refine that for me? What is your passion? And really, how did you come across it? Or how did you find it?

John Baldino  
Yeah, it's actually it's a great question. And truthfully, one that I'm hardly ever asked. And I think for me, I realized that I got great joy out of seeing others get it, whatever the it was, at that moment, right? Whether that be and for me, by the way, I shouldn't say contextually, I started my work in a training, development and education, right, which falls for many organizations sort of under the larger umbrella of human resources. And so when I would watch people even in the most basic areas of retail, for instance, with learning how to use the register, or doing a return restocking items, and and have people kind of say, Oh, I got it, you know, self sufficient now, I can take this and run with it. I enjoy that because I like treating people like adults, that very much so. And so if I can help them to be adulting in their own careers, writing their own jobs, whatever it was. That made me happy. And I stumbled across upon it, honestly, because I was pretty insecure growing up and very unsure of myself. I don't know that anybody or everybody would know that. People who knew me really did know that but otherwise I just kind of put my best foot forward. And but I was spent so much time trying to figure out how to make myself Okay. When really I found out that in service to others, really handled that for me, right made me feel okay, and gave me a stability that I kept kind of running after. So that was a gift. It was a gift.

Jeff Ma  
Amazing. 30 years though, human resources. I want to tap into all of that. And one of my first question Since that pops in my head is, with 30 years in this in this kind of function? Yeah. What stands out to you as in terms of what's changed, what's evolved. Human resources is, as you mentioned, a big function, but also, it's a four letter word. For some, it's a life, it's like a life giving you no substance for others. What is human like? What is human resources today in your lens, and really curious how it's changed over 30 years?

John Baldino  
I mean, it's changed a ton. I can tell you though, there is some consistency in some people still using the same four letter word. And I'm using it at me at times, not as much as I would say, as it used to be. And I don't know if that's a respect for elders thing, or because because I've gotten better at it. But you know, certainly when I started, and some who may listen will remember this. When I started, it was called personnel. And so the focus really was on people for sure. But it was making it was really just about making sure people were knew where to go, what time they had to be there. They had the resources that they needed in order to be successful. And usually that was very tactical, right? Whether uniforms or the training, or whatever materials would help them get things done. I'd say what has changed significantly in that as it evolved into human resources? Is that we, in good HR, we're looking at the person, not only from a compliance standpoint, you know, do they have what they need to be do everything that we're supposed to do? Are we keeping them from suing us into? How do we how do we help people to know that they are adding to what we're about here? Not fitting, but adding to what we have going on here? And how do we help people to sort of explore creativity and innovation and find a place to be included? Because that is a heavy lift? I know that people will say, well, everyone's included, we don't look at anybody differently. Well, that's not true. We, I know what you mean. But people are coming with different experiences. So that in and of itself changes, right how people are walking in the door. And so we have to be a little more thoughtful about that. And I think in HR, again, HR is being done well. And we're really seeing people take that much more seriously. Not putting aside compliance or policy I know. But we, if we want to do policy, really well build people up, make your workplace a place that they want to be by investing in as individuals, you're not going to have a lateness problem, you're not going to have people that are just trying to figure out what's the bare minimum of the dress code that I can wear without getting into trouble. I mean, that's not the kind of creativity, we want to encourage employees to spend their time on. And that in many ways, is how you can see the difference in the way in which some organizations still sort of function as personnel rather than human resource.

Jeff Ma  
What about in the, in the last, you know, three years since the pandemic? Have you seen, you know, trends change, expectations change? What in the world of HR? What, where? Where's that moving?

John Baldino  
Yeah. First of all, don't believe all the hype that everybody's working from home. That's one thing I need to make sure people realize. And I know that that gets a lot of press, that remote work, flexible work, I'm not disagreeing with it. And I'm certainly not saying it doesn't happen. And in the last three years, for certain that has taken off, like never before, from a percentage standpoint, but you know, when I talk to, to companies that are like, we want, you know, everybody should work from home, it's the only way to do it. And I talked to some very well meaning HR people who will say everybody needs to work from home, it's, if you're not, you're really not going to have the kind of talent that you want. And I will say, That's awesome. Love that you feel that way. Can I ask you a question? Sure. How many times have you done DoorDash? In the last month? How about Instacart? How many times have you ordered food that you picked up? On your way home from somewhere? Oh, my gosh, I don't know plenty of times, okay. Those people can't work from home. Those people are there, your your zoom pizza isn't happening. Someone is really making it. So we have to be very, very thoughtful about roles and contribution. That I would say we're still not where we need to be. It has changed the most in the last three years. But we're not where we need to be when it comes to that I need people to be on manufacturing line building stuff. Because when I go to Home Depot and the stuff isn't on the shelves, I'm annoyed. Well, I can't be annoyed if I'm saying annoyed out of one side of my mouth. And on the other side, I'm saying everyone should work remotely. It's the only way to do it. Well, apparently not. They can't, they can't build my stuff to put on the shelves, because they're trying to do it from home doesn't work the same. And we're seeing some companies starting to make, you know, I'm sure you've seen it to return to work policies now. Right? At least hybrid two days a week, three days a week, because we're starting to see we need that connection. And we need people to be around sometimes to make that happen.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah. Earlier, you kept mentioning that stood out to me, you kept saying, if HR is being done well, such as such such. John, is HR being done well is.

John Baldino  
Do this to me. Yeah.

Jeff Ma  
It's a big if it's, and I'm curious, like, from your perspective, is HR being done when, of course, we're not generalizing everybody, but I'm saying as a, as a trend of what you see. HR images, HR comes up a lot in, in my world, because when you're talking about culture, when you're talking about people that needed change behaviors, how we treat each other toxic culture, I mean, HR, either, I mean, almost always is either the force that helps make it happen, or the force that keeps it from happening. Rarely, not anything in between the two.

John Baldino  
I mean, yeah, I don't want to generalize too much, I would say, there are more good HR practitioners getting getting press. And so that the encouragement there is, hey, look to these folks for what good HR can can look like. But I'll balance that by saying there are still plenty of HR people who are really interested in this is my corner of of the world. I'm going to be the policy police. I am very content to just be you don't like me, fine. I don't care. You know, I put the handbook together, you have to do this you have to do and the insecurity that's found in too many HR people has sort of robbed this discipline of, I'd say the forward looking component that it ought to have. So that is still real. In some companies in some who are listening probably are nodding their heads quickly, up and down to say, yeah, no, I have one of those, you know, micromanaged, total power trip, we never see them, they sit in their cubicles or in their office, if it's on site, or you know, they're working from home, they never come in to see the employees that have to work on site, it's very separate. That has to be remedied. Because it's not doing us. It's not doing us any favors, quite frankly. Well,

Jeff Ma  
even setting aside kind of the painted picture we just had of, of the type of person maybe doing HR, but even the role itself, like the function itself often sits between these two worlds of maybe there's some HR practitioners who really are well meaning and wanting to grow people and help people feel better and more included in stuff. And then there's this, I won't say it's separate. But there's this function of the department that is first and foremost intended to protect the business and intended to put up the guardrails in terms of what you know, would get them in trouble would get the business into into a bad situation. Right. And and those two ends are at odds quite a bit regardless. Or at least that's the impression

John Baldino  
that's the impression. Yes.

Jeff Ma  
So maybe talk a little bit about that. Like what what is the what is the reality of that?

John Baldino  
I think the reality is that compliance and culture are not two different things are actually two sides of the same coin. I don't think you're going to have healthy compliance in your organization if your culture is unhealthy. And I also think a healthy culture needs compliance because it needs to know the boundaries, its structure. And, and, you know, for to borrow a lesson from parenting, right? It isn't a great idea to raise children with no rules whatsoever, just because you want to be the fun parent loved and all that good stuff. And it's not a great idea to raise your children with nothing but rules the whole time because they can never find a way to express and emote in the way that they want to. I have to tell you, organizations are similar. We have people They're, that we are treating like children, if we only are concerned about compliance, follow my rules, do what I say to do, don't think for yourself, and everybody will be happy. Well, that's not true, the employee will not be happy because we're robbing that person. And then in a world where critical thinking is in a deficit, HR feeds into that potentially, by only focusing on one side of that coin, we want to encourage culturally dynamic discussions, opportunities for innovation, giving people an opportunity to be expressive in support of organizational goals, taking risks, where appropriate, not asking them to fit in. But to add in, that's a huge difference for some organizations. And those two sides of the same coin can work in tandem, I have to tell you, I hardly ever have to affirm policy, I hardly ever have to, because people are so bought into the organization, and why we're doing what we're doing, that they themselves will either self police to make sure that they're that they are part of the health of the organization. And no more likely, they are more likely the ones to turn to their left or to the right and say, hey, you know, just so you know, when you do that, it causes this issue communicatively for us, which yes, it's a violation of policy. But that policy is in place, because we want to protect the communication. That's ultimately the goal. I love that let people take care of it themselves. They're adults, let's treat them that way.

Jeff Ma  
I guess I'll share my you know, the reason it's profound to hear that culture and policy or compliance are the same coin. But I think the, for me, the reason why they become at odds, or at least what I've seen it and perceive is that a lot of HR seems like it's operating from a very risk averse, fixed mindset, from this mindset of preventing problems before they start, and really only looking at the negatives, like really only looking at what, what bad things can happen. And even if they are, again, good, meaning like they want people to be happy, they genuinely want people to enjoy their work and their job. But it's almost like, they don't have a growth mindset about that about all the other ways that that could be possible. And what you just described to me was, like, a very theory, why kind of like in a world where, you know, like, people are kind of given that, that, that, that that freedom, and I feel like HR kind of gets stuck in that theory X kind of space where where, you know, compliance is king, or, yeah, and all those things like does that that makes sense? Or

Speaker 1  
I would say it does first, let' say that. Secondly, I would say there's probably a couple of reasons for that one. HR has been trained to be afraid. And so because it's been trained to be afraid, it will be risk adverse, adverse, and it will also be over the top proactive about and not putting myself employees and the company in a place where something could happen. And I, I would say that's really been a product of our training. Secondly, if an HR department if an HR division doesn't answer directly to the C suite CEO, and is a sub function and reports to the CFO, which happens in a lot of organizations. Finance is another risk management department. And so you have these two feeding each other, which doesn't allow and that's why the sales department hates HR and finance. It's, it's why it's why marketing is always the you know, rotten department that finance and HR complain about, because you're asking those that are in creative and proactive and risk considerate roles. To stop doing that you stop doing that. We need them to do that. I can't tell you how many senior HR leaders I I've chatted with, who are bad mouthing their CEO, because the CEO is is visionary. Let's try this. Let's try that and they are uncomfortable with it. But I want to also say that what I described a few minutes ago doesn't need to be theory. I exist in a community right now in an organization where that theory is real, it's actually happening. And so and I know I'm not the only organization, there are other organizations as well. And so if we keep things like that as sort of idealized what we hope one day to get to, and everybody's kind of thinking that right? We need to start affirming the examples of ones that are really doing it. So people know it's attainable, that it is something that has to happen. And change is not overnight. And you know, as an aside, I don't think a lot of HR practitioners have really been equipped to do change management very well. It's just not something that we spend a lot of time on, quite frankly, in HR. And but we, we are asked to do a whole lot of change. Yeah,

Jeff Ma  
I was like, surprising. Surprising, for sure. Well, I mean, you kind of just summed up my entire reason for being because my whole my whole thing is that this podcast exists, because I want people to see what else is possible and see how things can be. So I appreciate that. What where do we start? I guess, because because, you know, I kept I keep clinging on to the if HR is being done well statement. And, yeah, I want HR to be done well, once you paint, the picture you painted, is what I strive for, not just from an HR perspective, but from an organizational perspective, right from I want workplaces to be filled with that type of energy, that type of that type of culture, that type of feeling that you walk through the doors, and you are kind of just just know that you belong. I think that HR is such a big part of that it's such a big, you know, you like again, they make or break it in so many ways. So where do we focus our energies first? Or where do we begin?

John Baldino  
I think you know, you and I, in speaking before, when you and I were just having a conversation, I'm a huge proponent of this concept of love. As an organizational strategy, it is the starting place. And I mean it in a genuine way, when you are an organization and you're trying to brand yourself as we're like a family here, as an example, right? Come be a part of our family. Number one, that's not the best example, for everyone who may hear it. Some people don't have wonderful warm thoughts and feelings about family. And so if you tell me your organization is like a family, and my frame of reference is the awful family I have or had, then you're asking me to superimpose that on your organization. And guess what, I don't want to be opposed to that. But if what you're trying to get across really is the net effect of whatever your perception of family is, there's warmth, there's healthy communication, there's a desire to, to build one another up, to see each other succeed, to look to see how we can provide in ways for people that perhaps haven't been provided for in the past, those are the things that I would spend the time focused on and speaking about. And that's a great starting place. When you have your values in bronze, on a plaque hanging in your lobby. And that's really the only place the values exist. That tells you a whole lot of where your starting point needs to be. When you have values that are things like integrity, my favorite. I mean, I just I know I want to work for the organization that is where falsehood is. Like, where we're just straight up lying and deception are what we're all about. Be thoughtful about. I'm not saying to take integrity down please don't listen to this and get you know, a razor blade and try to scratch out whatever it says on your value plaque. What I'm saying is, give it legs. Let people know what that looks like where you are, because some people will hear integrity and think transparency. And so when you're an organization that has reasons at times to not be transparent about things, does that mean you're not operating in integrity? No, it does not. But you may have allowed someone to think that because you've provided new context for for the values. So start in those areas. So contextually the organization has real bones that can be pointed to about what we're about, and what your contribution will mean, as you're a part of it.

Jeff Ma  
I love it. I think you, you framed it, you framed exactly how I feel. And it's just so I think it's so important. It's one of those things that I would shout at from the mountaintops, because it's just, I mean, even pick the one you even picked integrity, which is my is my, that's my go to value statement that I'm just like,

John Baldino  
Well, yeah, yeah. What does that mean? Trust trust now? Sorry, I want to work with the people that I just can never trust. Like, what what are we? What do you want people to understand about trust? I worked in banking and finance for eight years. And in my career, right, eight of those years were spent in banking and finance. What does trust mean there? Versus what trust might mean, and in different industry? There are specific things, I can't tell you out of privacy, why I can I, you know, couldn't move forward with a particular lending option, other than to the direct people it affects, if I have seven other people in the company that are like, Oh, what happened to that Smith deal? Tell me why you think I can't, I have to keep confidentiality around some things, just like in a hospital or clinic, I can't just walk around and say, Oh, my goodness, did you hear about the, you know, the Jones case? He has got to read and now everything's ruined? He's gonna say things like that, right? You can't do that. But But does that now mean, the organization is not trustworthy? Because you don't tell me things. You're not living in that? No, that's not what it means. Let me help you contextually know, how, how we operate, and how you can know you're traveling on a similar path.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, and I think so much of the space that I work in, and that many people are traversing as they navigate the workplace environment and culture in general, as we try to get a grasp on this, it kind of it kind of crosses between this, this this invisible line of kind of feelings, and emotions and and perceptions and less quantifiable, less measurable things. And then, of course, what everybody, or at least, you know, leaders and you know, a lot of people want is, like the data which they associate with the results in the in the proof. And, and there's this kind of space where, you know, they are at odds at times just the sense of not not because they can't coexist, but because you're sitting here going well, and my surveys came back, and people feel this way. And like, you know, we have 89% satisfaction, everyone loves it here. And I'm like, What about the 11%? And even even amongst the eight 9%, what are they? What are they thinking? Where are they feeling? What are they experiencing day to day, and, you know, like these things get kind of lost in in building a complete organization, that that really considers success? Like, I think it's almost like a definition of success problem. Because, you know, when when you when the masses just become a number, I think we lose sight of what real success might look like for teams.

John Baldino  
And I think that I mean, you make a great point, I think, too, we have to be astute about the contributing factors that we're using to make the decisions we're trying to make organizationally. So when you have a survey, as a great example, and you do an annual engagement survey, it's a snapshot in time, you may have 89%, approval rating, right right now, but that could change next month, or in two months. It's why retail organizations don't do engagement surveys in October, November and December. One hates everything. Right, but But why do we because you're smart enough to know if I do it, then I'm going to have skewed results. Well, don't be surprised that it's can be that way in any other month of the year. So be wise about we would never make decisions based on one test. If someone's think about your own academic career if you took a test and failed it. And that's the only test for 12 months that we're going to use to judge you and your contribution to the organization. My goodness, that seems so unfair. I just had a hard time with the periodic table. And I couldn't remember everything and what it all stood for. But when I did the lab, I crushed it. I knew what every chemical was in, but nobody's given me credit for that because they keep pointing to the one test that I bombed. Let's be thoughtful around surveys and what they read. They're a piece of a larger picture of what helps us to make decisions about our approach and in order to musicians,

Jeff Ma  
I have so many of the things I want to talk about. And I just looked at the clock and I'm like, What is going on? We've just scratched the surface of so many things. So this is this is gonna go offline, or maybe in another episode if you have time, because literally, so I've enjoyed this conversation very much, I think. So many more questions to go. But but at the same time, already so much value achieved here. And I really appreciate what you've shared. And the perspective, I really appreciate you being here. Is there anything you'd like to leave people with when it comes to this topic, because just to give you a chance to some some things up or close out.

John Baldino  
I mean, I would just say that, that, by the way, I'd be happy to come back and do some more. This has been fun for me as well. So thank you, I would say that don't underestimate and I don't mean this in a cheesy way, don't underestimate the impact that love in an organization can have because love is more than a feeling. And I know HR gets scared of that at times, right? Because we already are called the touchy feely department and so people try to back away from that. Honestly, love really matters. And it's something that people can grip and find stability. And when an organization is wise about how it loves its employees and loves its divisions and it loves its resources. There's there's really great work that can come from that.

Jeff Ma  
Well, that's gonna get clipped and put on social media. So thank you, John, for that Incredibles now. To the listeners, we appreciate you tuning in, and we hope you're enjoying these episodes. If you haven't checked out love as a business strategy. I'll say it every single episode, go read it, please. Thank you and subscribe rate the podcast. I was just informed recently that we are a top 5% podcast globally. So that's, that's I'll take it. I'll take it. So we hope you're enjoying that stuff. And it's all thanks to you all. So we will see every one of you and more next week. One more. Thank you to John for joining us today. And we'll see y'all soon.