Jeff Ma
We're always talking about love as a business strategy in terms of the quote unquote standard type of workplace. You do your job you report to a boss, but today's guests gives us a completely different perspective. Looking at love when it comes to the countless people in the gig economy, Trevor Theunissen is the Vice President of Government Affairs at Shipt. He has been working in the gig space for seven years with Uber as well. He helps enlighten us on what culture looks like when you don't have a boss. And it's incredibly interesting.

Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle those topics that most business leaders might shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. We're here to have conversations and hear stories about real people and real businesses and I, as always, I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I'm joined today by Trevor Theunissen. Trevor currently serves as the Vice President of Government Affairs at Shipt. And before that, he also spent seven years at Uber, where he led Ubers Government Affairs and Communications teams for the South and Southwest regions. Super excited to have this moment to talk to you, Trevor, welcome to the show.

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah. Thanks, Jeff. Appreciate you having me. I'm really excited to join.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's just, I mean, Shipt, Uber two big names that basically are household names at this point. For many, really, really excited to dive into that. And before we do, there's an awkward thing I make every guest do which is answer a random question as an icebreaker. So you'll humor me for that. For for today's question is if you had a full time personal assistant, what would you will be the first thing you'd have them take off your plate? A peron like a life personal assistant, not just for work? Like?

Trevor Theunissen
That is a great, a great question. I think it would probably be getting my kids dressed for school in the morning. I have a five, three and nine month old and so I it is it is a constant battle in the morning, my daughter's into my 3 year old daughter's into picking out what she wears and making sure that everything is perfectly unwrinkled. And it is it is just a Royal Rumble WWE style every morning. So that would that would really relieve a lot of stress. And I think make the house a happier place from the hours of 7 to 8am.

Jeff Ma
Amazing answer I would that actually changed. I mean, I'd go with that. I mean, I just didn't realize I had that need until you just said it as well. Okay, let's let's dive into I want to start somewhere very, very simple. Which is Trevor, tell. Tell me about what you're passionate about, I guess. Share your passion with me if you don't mind.

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah, sure thing. I am. I am a transit and transportation nerd. Self proclaimed self described self labeled. And honestly, transportation and and travel is a true passion of mine. My entire life. I've been a travel seeker and have been fascinated, since I was very young with trains, planes, and automobiles, as most children are. And I've just as I've, as I've gotten older, really come to better appreciate the role that that travel and transportation and the way that we move impacts not only the way that we live, but the way that we learn, and the way that we interact. And so I am a huge transit and transportation geek. And it is a real true passion of mine.

Jeff Ma
That's that's not a phrase I've heard uttered before. So that helped me break it down a little bit. What does it mean to you to be an a transit and transportation nerd?

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah, so I really geek out on the the ways and the systems that are built in order to move people, and also especially relating to equity, and inclusion in transportation and transportation access. I think one of the big challenges that this country has, is that we just don't have a robust public transit system and transportation system across the country. Certainly there are cities who have had state to have good ones and others who have not so great ones, but I think just as a whole the country is really far behind other countries and other societies as it relates to free equitable and robust transit and transportation systems, both private and public sector and how those two things relate. I think it's super important. And so, you know, as I think through the work that I've done both in my personal capacity, and in my professional capacity, that link between jobs and access to healthcare and access to food, and access to housing is a real transportation challenge. And I think if you could figure out the transportation needs, and align our resources with those needs, then that'll actually help in many different aspects of society and industry.

Jeff Ma
I think that's so cool. I love I love a specific passion. I asked the question a lot, and, and there's nothing wrong with everyone's passion is their passion, which is great. But I really love when people are able to find in life, I think it's one of the hardest things in life to do is to uncover that. So that's, that's incredible. And it's very, very fitting. I think it's very cool. You went from planes, trains and automobiles, and you and you landed at Uber? Can you tell me a little bit about, like, what brought you there? And what happened there?

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah, sure. thing. So yeah, I mean, as as a kid, obviously, Uber did not exist. And, and so I wasn't playing with toy Ubers. I was playing with toy taxis. And, and yeah, I was a in government and politics. Most of my career. After I went to law school, I was really involved in rebuilding efforts after hurricanes Katrina, and Rita in New Orleans and, and Louisiana. I'm born and raised in Louisiana, and after law school, and during law school was really impacted. You know, by the hurricanes, it was sort of a big deal in our lives. Sure. And wanted to help out. So I worked in state government and city government for quite some time. And, and really, you know, use transportation and my passion for transportation to figure out how can we rethink the way that we move people in Louisiana and in the city of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina and Rita, when so much federal resources were being spent on rethinking the way that we build our infrastructure. So did that for a while. And while I was working for the New Orleans City Council, the suite at the NFL had said, Hey, we want to bring the Super Bowl to New Orleans. But here are a few things that we need from you before we do that, and one of the things that they said they needed was to reform the the city's taxicab industry. So at the time, like in many cities, taxi cabs in New Orleans didn't have age limits. They didn't have to be required to have credit cards. There was no sort of real regulation as it related to customer satisfaction. And so I worked on that piece of legislation with with Mayor Mitch Landrieu and my boss, former council member, Kristen Palmer, to really think through how do we revitalize our taxi system, both to make it beneficial to taxi drivers and taxi owners, but also for customers. And so I did a lot of work around that and transportation. And then I led a nonprofit called Ride New Orleans, which is still in existence and doing really incredible work in the city of New Orleans. It's a transit advocacy nonprofit. So advocating, one being sort of a watchdog and a think tank to the to the public transit agency, the Regional Transit Authority in New Orleans, as well as really doing some community and grassroots organizing with transit riders to really understand sort of what are their challenges on a day to day basis? Is it a crappy bus stop that they have to sit in or sit next to? Is it that their line isn't as efficient as they need it to be in order to get to their job, and really learning and advocating better for transit riders. So between those two things, I had a real sort of professional background in transit and transportation. And so when Uber was looking for a manager to do Government Affairs and Public Policy in the southeast, I throw my name in the hat and, and thankfully, got the job. And so at that point, it was in 2015, when Uber was just stored, started expanding into different cities with their peer sharing model, which is Uber X as opposed to just their black car service, which they started out doing. And that was really transformational for me personally. And I think for a lot of cities that was trying to convince elected officials and regulators and politicians that this actually was something new and something different, and shouldn't be regulated in an old, ancient archaic way like taxi cabs were. And actually part of it was to help taxi cab industry also understand that, you know, this can be beneficial for you if you catch up, or you know, it could be detrimental if you don't get with the times and so Yeah, that was sort of, you know, the start and then spent seven years and worked from everything from transportation to find cars to Uber Eats to self driving cars, and all of all of the other stuff that Uber was into and still is.

Jeff Ma
That's awesome. And and then more recently, it brought you to Shipt. And can you talk a little bit about your role there now?

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah, sure. Thanks. So I, I've been with Shipt for about six months now. Shipt is a same day delivery platform that delivers both grocery and retail items to your front door. So we are a wholly owned subsidiary of target, and do a lot of targets last mile deliveries from from their stores. But we also partner with over 130 other retailers, we just announced this week a partnership with Walgreens, and 711, where you can shop their stores on our app, and we deliver them to you to your front door. So it's it's available all over the country, we're growing tremendously. And I served as the Vice President of Government Affairs there, where I sort of worked on similar issues to what I was working on at Uber. And as the same day delivery sector grows, and delivery of and transportation of items, and retail items grows Shipt as a major player in that space as well.

Jeff Ma
That's, that's awesome. I am super excited to ask this question, because I'll ask this if anybody I talked to not on the show or not. But especially from your perspective, so in industries such as transportation, transit, across your experience, like Uber and shift and also in the sense that you're working in like legal and Government Affairs, all these different domains. I love that intersectionality and that crossover of things that you deal with, what is your perspective of, of the importance of within your organizations and those around you? What is the importance of putting people first? What is what where do you see that happening? Or where do you not see that happening? In those environments?

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah, look, I think I think it's a it's a huge topic right now for the gig economy. And the big players in the gig economy like Shipt, like Uber, like or other gig third party delivery platforms and and transportation network companies like Uber and Lyft. I think it a lot of it stems around customer satisfaction and making sure that the customer is treated well. I think one of the things we do really well Shipt in, which is really interesting is we're a people first company and we make sure that our people, not only our customers, but our shoppers and our drivers and our workers are put first and all the decisions that we make, it's also interesting to see sort of what Target brings to the table as a parent company have Shipt. You know, they are a traditional retail big box retailer. And so they have been for years obsessed with what the customer experience is as they walk in the door, but also how they treat their target members, right, those people who are working in their stores every every single day. And target is always been known as a real great place to work because they're making decisions as it relates to putting their people first. I think it also is a really fascinating time as it relates to the gig workers and the gig economy and the future of work. And and now that you have vast majority of people who are in the, in the gig space and doing gig jobs or freelance jobs, why it matters, that one, they're moving into that work. And I think that the real reason is because they want to be their own boss, and they want the flexibility that comes with it. And to is how do we treat those workers better? When it when it comes to making decisions on their behalf as as a place where they work? And also what are the benefits and perks and things that they receive in return for for that work. And so, you know, it is a really interesting time in the gig space and with the with the gig economy with with the way that the economy has been and sort of the labor shortage out there, it's been really fascinating to see how companies in our space are putting people first not only their customers, but the workers that work for them.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, it's such a it's a space that I don't I don't think about often because I in my in my conversations in my line of work, we're always talking about directly, you know, just organizational, you know, leaders and then the people who work for them in the same department, same kind of thing and when it comes to gig work. I mean, I just say I mean I'm not even clear like, are gig workers treated as employees directly or do you How does that all work to actually You know, do they have you? Is there a culture? Does the culture extend to gig workers? They have their own helped me understand that a little bit?

Trevor Theunissen
It's a great question. So so legally, in all 50 states, gig workers are independent contractors. So they are not employees of the the companies that they work with. There are debates that happen. As you can imagine, all over the country. Right now, there's a ballot initiative going on in Massachusetts, there was just a big ballot initiative in in California around, you know, making sure in law and codified in law that gig workers are independent contractors and not employees. I think, if you ask gig workers, which we have, and the industry has, the majority of them will say that they want to remain independent contractors, because of that flexibility. The minute they're made employees, the company gets to dictate when and how they work, which is a totally different reason than why they join and take up gig work in the first place. I will say, though, that the that the industry has recognized that, that we can do a lot better on how we treat gig workers and and what they they receive from the companies. I think one of the big fascinating aspects of law and policy right now is around how algorithms make decisions based on work, right? So with a, a shopper on shift, or a driver with Uber, gets a request to they can pick if they want to take that shop, or they want to take that trip or not. But the way that they get paid is based on an algorithm, right? And there's a bunch of inputs that go into that algorithm. And I think there's a general lack of understanding from gig workers, and rightly so. Because those those algorithms can be pretty opaque, right? I mean, it's a it's a lot of internal data and inputs that go into that algorithm. And all those gig workers see as an output, which is, here's how much I'm going to make for that trip. And they don't really understand what all goes behind it. Because there's not a lot of clarity on that. And so I think that is one place where we're seeing a lot more interest. And a lot of gig workers sitting, hey, I want more insight into this and like, how am I getting paid? And how am I getting rewarded? I think the second thing that we're hearing a lot of is we want, we want benefits as well, right? We want traditional benefits that employees get. And I think that's where shift is really sort of leading helping to lead the conversation and leading the conversation, which is, we know that that gig workers want certain benefits. We know that somewhat healthcare somewhat paid sick time somewhat paid family medical leave, they aren't traditionally entitled to those benefits, because they're not employees, they are independent contractors. And under the current law, if a company like Shipt wanted to proactively offer those, we wouldn't be able to given the current legal structures. And so in order for us to be able to do that, we have to go and change state law and ultimately, federal law if we want a 50 state solution. And so those are the conversations that are happening right now. I think it is a really, really good time for the companies to start putting their heads around, like what does this look like, there's been a lot of academics and experts who have said, what we need is a sort of portable benefits system, which allows gig workers to get benefits from the, from the platforms that they work for. And certain certain of those benefits be aggregated for that for those workers to access. So let's say you work for Shipt for three hours a week, you work for Uber for four hours a week, you work for Instacart, another three hours a week, we would all pay into a portable benefits account based on the hours that you worked on our platform. And then that gig worker could access that portable benefits account just like an FSA or HSA card, and go and purchase benefits for their family. And it would be pretty open, right? They could purchase whatever they needed. A lot of politicians have said, Hey, gig workers need health care. And in fact, when we do surveys as an industry on Hey, what would you like, when we ask gig workers, what they would like health care is actually eighth or ninth on their list, because they're getting it from some other means they're either getting it from a partner, or they're getting it from a full time job that they already have. And so making sure that those benefits are flexible, I think is an important important thing as well.

Jeff Ma
Wow, like, just incredible. I just I haven't really stopped to think about so many of these elements. I'm still curious it would you say that these collective gig workers, either by company or just as a whole share a culture? Like what is your what is your take on that?

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah, I think they certainly do. I think the culture the culture, changes from from platform to platform and where they work, right. So so the culture of a traditional Uber driver, I think is very different. than the culture of a Shipt shopper, right? So the average Uber driver drives, you know, 20 to 23 hours a week on Uber, the average Shipt shopper does about eight hours on the Shipt platform, and that varies across all platforms, DoorDash Lyft, they all have their own different different sort of makeup of what the traditional gig worker is on their platform. So, so just inherently on the the type of work, whether it's grocery shopping, or retail, shopping, or driving a vehicle driving passengers around, that creates a certain culture, as well as the amount of hours that they work on that platform. And so I think, traditionally, what we've seen at Shipt is, you know, we have our shoppers tend to skew a little older, and with more flexibility, so they're really only doing this a couple times a week as opposed to every day. And so that really dictates the culture, per platform. But I but I would say that they're, they're super well connected, right? They, they love to learn from each other. They love to learn from the company, they love to be part of sort of what we're what we're doing as a company, they're very prideful of their work, they really have a connection to that customer that they're shopping for that they're they're doing work for. And so, so it's a really prideful community. That's, that's really proud of the work that they do.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, and, you know, when I think about addressing people and dressing cultures, in this context, usually the standard kind of setup is you have a whole group, a whole group of people, large or small, who are sitting in a certain position doing the work. And then when you want to just culture for them, I'm always starting with their leader, like their supervisor, or whatever, or moving up the chain. Right? So talking about those behaviors, the way that they are treated directly in the way that they're considered through actual physical human behavior, and interaction, right. And I think of the gig workers who, like you said, share this common knowledge, this culture, this experience, but my correcting kind of saying that their boss, though collectively, like their, their, their leader, is kind of like this nameless, faceless kind of entity that that binds them all. Is that like, their supervisor? Or do they? Is there some other way that they're reached? A human level?

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah, I think I think I would say, you know, different companies are better at sort of that human level connection than others in the gig space. And I think all all the companies are experimenting with what is the best way to reach the workers on our platform. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, the workers and the shoppers and the drivers are core, at the, at the heart of what the company and the success of these companies. And so making sure that they are treated in a way that that is respectful and honored and heard is super important. We have a whole process around shopper engagement at Shipt around how do we cultivate positive culture among our shoppers? How do we make sure we're meeting that their needs? How do how do we make sure that from a product and a tech perspective, they are getting their needs met? When they're doing their shop? Is it easy to use the app? Is it intuitive? How are we making sure that we are we are we're meeting, you know, the day to day skills that they that they need and making sure that we're syncing those and so. So I think you're right, I think there is a little bit of the, you know, if I'm working or driving on four or five different platforms a week, who is my who is my boss, right? Who is who is that? That that leader. But I think frankly, that's part of the appeal of the work, right? They don't want a boss, they don't want a leader, they want to be able to do it on their own terms at their own time, not have to report it and not have to fill out a report not have to do the traditional things that the employee relationship brings. But I think we have to create a new dynamic of how do you stay connected? And how do you create a culture within gig work? For those people who don't want a boss or supervisor?

Jeff Ma
Yeah, that's Wow. And, you know, you mentioned earlier that, you know, it's all about I guess, I think you phrased it better, but it's about putting people considering people in this at the center of your decision making things like that. Can you give an example I guess, of across any any of this space where those decisions are made? Like putting these drivers these shoppers first, like what type of decisions are we talking about?

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah, it's a great question. So so it Shipt we we seek driver input a lot on decisions that we make. We just did so around a new announcement regarding our pay structure for shoppers. We're now guaranteed In a flat minimum pay on all shops that happen on the platform that shoppers do. So we will guarantee you that at minimum, you will make $16 an hour, anywhere in the country on a Shipt shop. That sort of industry set standard. I mean, industry groundbreaking, right, like that hasn't been been done by any company in the gig space yet. And a lot of the work that we did was a lot of work that we did around that issue was listening to shoppers to say, what matters most to you pay is typically number one, and flexibility. And how do we make sure that we're paying the right amount, not only from a just a living standard perspective, and, and rewarding people for the work that they're doing. But also from a competitive perspective, you know, the, the better you pay, the better it is to work, the more you know, the more work gets done. And so. So there's formalized structures within Shipt on how we get seek shopper input as well as shopper engagement, right? One of the things we're working on now is, you know, what didn't what perks do do shoppers like, right, what would really help them in their day to day lives? Is that a traditional perk program where if you sign up to be a Shipt shopper, you know, you get discounts at these companies that that matter to you that you use on a daily or weekly basis with your family? What matters most to you. So I think, you know, making sure that there are sort of those those touch points. And that it's a constant conversation and not just a one off ask, when you're building a new product, or you're coming at rolling out with a new feature. It's not just a checkbox, like, Hey, have we done a focus group around this check, and then move on? That it's actually a sustained, constant conversation that you're having with with your workers?

Jeff Ma
Yeah, that's, that's so important. I think that to me was the challenge that immediately stood out to me was hearing, you know, when you have this very unconventional kind of, like, layer of work, that isn't bound by let's say, a supervisor or leader in there, all these independent contractors, you know, making policies and changes to procedure and tools and technology can be can be very easily tone deaf or imagined, almost anything you change, you will always have people who are unhappy about it. Or, you know, there's there's multiple sides to everything. And so keeping your, I guess, ears and hearts open to what's actually being received by that group is probably a huge challenge.

Trevor Theunissen
Yep, that's right. And and it's also it's also follow up, right. I mean, I think that is a huge piece of this, which is, you know, after a decision is made, like we just rolled out with our pay our minimum pay, follow up is, is needs to be consistent, and it needs to be meaningful. And so, you know, if we went wrong somewhere, or if we're getting feedback that, you know, it's it's not the right calculation, and XYZ market, we have to be responsive to that. And we've got to have inputs, or mechanisms in place that allow for those inputs to come into us and make sure that, you know, once we roll out product feature, or a new tech feature, or a new, a new, whatever it is, that we don't just shut off the conversation, say, Oh, we've rolled it out. Now. Everybody's fine, right? It's It's that constant feedback loop so that we can have input on you know, how this gets gets actually felt by the people who are doing it. And not just a decision at HQ.

Jeff Ma
Yeah. With the last segment of time I have, I'm curious. Where else do you see, I guess, love being played out? In your opinion, and your perspective? In, in, in your in the business environment? You're in? Shift Uber, wherever you've seen it? Where does Where does love play a role to you?

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah, I think I think love really stands out to me in those personal connections that are made in the back of an Uber with the driver and the rider or in a Shipt shop where the Shipt shopper goes and shops your order and messages me and says, Hey, you know, they're, they're out of Bananas, but I know that your children love, love tomatoes, do you want to sub the tomatoes for bananas? And then they come to my house, and they drop off the order. And I asked them how their kids are doing and we have a conversation. And then I can favor that shopper. Trevor, the person you shopped for is interested in you shopping for them, again, sort of those sort of connections, I think are so meaningful and so impactful. And I think, you know, that is really where the platform is really just the intermediary right there. They're just creating that connection as a company. You know that we're facilitating that connection for a business purpose. But the real magic is in that personal connection that happens between those two individuals. And, you know, I've experienced this many times in the back of an Uber where, you know, I'm getting getting a ride to somewhere, and I strike up a conversation with the driver. And it's just a fascinating, amazing conversation between two strangers. And I feel like in our society in this day and age, especially with COVID, you know, those stranger conversations are few and far between, we either have our phone in our hand, our air pods in our ear, walking down the street, or, you know, we're buried in email in the back of an Uber, or we're not having those connections, because, you know, we're on Zoom, and we're on scheduled for 30 minutes, and then we're falling off, because all we talked about was business or the matter at hand or the agenda. So I think those sort of happenstance, s nnnieeeeeeeeeeee[[]]]]\\\\

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}-lop,900/0lloopppppppoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooolop'l0llotranger connections, where people connect and find mutual interest in each other's story, and each other's background, really, really makes the the product come to life. I mean, we, we say that we're, you know, we're not only just a tech company, we're a people company. And I think that's true, because we're connecting people in the physical world. You know, social, social media platforms don't really connect you in the physical world, you just live in the digital world. And you don't ever see that person or touch that person, or in the same presence as that person. And that's what I really love about the work that we do. It's Shipt. And you know, what some of these delivery and transportation companies do is you're facilitating that physical human connection, which I think is just so important in our in our society.

Jeff Ma
I love it. I love it. Trevor, you've given me a lot to think about.

Trevor Theunissen
Oh, that's a good thing.

Jeff Ma
It's a great thing. It's a great thing. And I think our listeners appreciate as well, because we talk about a lot of common themes here that are true to humans, and just being human and life itself. And we always try to connect it back to business. But yeah, I mean, the gig economy and the gig worker is a huge, huge part of real life now, like this is the type of living people are making this type of thing. And it's still, in so many ways, still just new and unsolved and changing, right. And so I have yet to think about, you know, to be honest, like, culture, work culture, and just that human element of, of this side of things is such a large subset of people in the world that are that are either, especially using the services but also working working in the service. I mean, I literally ordered food through UberEATS last night, so I've not looked at it that way. And it's very, very eye opening. So first of all, appreciate you taking the time today to have this chat is super, super insightful. Thank you very much.

Trevor Theunissen
Yeah, very welcome. And thanks again. It's been a pleasure and, and really, really love what you guys are doing. And it's, it's really exciting to watch.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely, I hope we get a chance to catch up and hear more as as she sounds like it's doing great things. So it sounds like you're you're at the forefront a lot of those things I'd love to stay updated on and on. I'll keep my eyes on the news for other great things that you guys are doing for those in that gig working space.

To the listeners of the show, thank you as always as and I'll never never ending the never ending plug for the book Love as a Business Strategy. It's still there. I'm still proud of it. Go get it. And don't forget to subscribe, rate. Tell a friend about the podcast. And if you enjoyed it, let us know. If you didn't share, let us know we'll take that as well. But otherwise, we're coming out with new episodes every week. So we'll tune we'll see you guys next week.