Jeff Ma  
Hey folks, if you follow the show or you've read the book, you've probably heard of Seneca leaders, a unique one day experience that helps people transform mindsets and shape new behaviors. I'm so proud to host the facilitate these sessions alongside my co authors and colleagues. And I would really love for you to come and join us learn more about it by visiting Seneca leaders.com. And now, on with the show.

Lata Hamilton  
If you want to empower your people, if you want to give them the ability to own their own work, if you want to give them the ability to make decisions, and to be able to solve problems, using their own initiative, and then escalate when appropriate and necessary, you also need to have given them enough trust. You need to have built the governance models internally, in order to be able to actually hand over some of that accountability and responsibility to them.

Jeff Ma

Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. And we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from, we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories from real people and real businesses. And my guest today is the founder and CEO of Passion Pioneers and the creator of the leading successful change program. Her name is Lata Hamilton, and she is a change leadership and confidence expert. Lots of has worked with some of Australia's biggest companies and in her career, moving from marketing to organizational change management. She's developed her own style of inspirational change leadership. And with that, she's worked on changes that have impacted over 100,000 people from global transformations, culture, to operating model changes, and game changing digital transformations. So welcome to the show Lata. How are you today? 

Lata Hamilton  
Thank you so much for having me, Jeff. Very excited to be here. Super excited to have a chat with you. Absolutely. And for everyone's context Lata is it's like 5am, where you're where you're at right now. Right? And if you're not watching the video, she's like, bright chipper looking great. Like me at 5am. That is not the case. So thank you so much for for for being here. So early in the morning where you are.

You're so welcome. In case you haven't picked up on it yet. I am Australian. So yes, the time zones can be pretty funky. But I am really excited to be here. So I think that's given me my energy boost for the morning. And I will admit, Jeff, I have had half a coffee.

Jeff Ma  
Well, I'm glad that's working and Lata I want to start with you. I want to start with your story. And, you know, start as far back as you want to. But tell me a little bit about what brought you to where you are today. And like what that passion looks like for you. Yeah, absolutely. So I was actually adopted from India. So I was adopted by an Australian family when I was two. And while as a child that wasn't necessarily something that kind of felt any different. It was just the way that I had grown up. But it was actually like, as I sort of started to get older, it was sort of around like kind of finding who I was finding my identity. And then also kind of coming to terms a little bit as well with like, what it meant to have probably been born in poverty been like growing up in an orphanage for the first couple of years of my life and then getting the opportunity to actually come across to Australia. So it's sort of something that's been building and expanding kind of like as I've been getting older. I think it's really kind of led me to where I am today where I just sort of have this, this idea and his vision and his passion around like it doesn't matter where you start. It's just where you want to go where you want to take yourself the potential that you want to fulfill in your own life, in your own work in your own career in your own leadership, and giving everybody the opportunity to do that and to have that. And we focus I think a lot in workplaces on like leaders and I also am really passionate as well about actually helping tools and helping people no matter where they are in the organization having the opportunity to think about what they want for the future, what value they bring, what they want to be paid how they want their life and their lifestyle to be set up. And then actually giving them the tools giving them the empowerment and giving them the confidence to be able to go after that. And I think it's a really important thing that we have in our workplaces around actually empowering people. Because naturally, not everybody has that individual motivation to actually want to maybe transform or change their life or even just have the courage to go after what it is that they want. And like a good example of this is a couple of years ago, I actually went on a two month trip to Europe, and I went on my own, my partner couldn't make it, he couldn't come. But I still really wanted to go and the messages that I got from people who were like, following my trip on on social media. And were like, oh, like, just such an inspiration, you're so brave, like, I could never do that. But it's almost like they were living vicariously through me. And so it's this opportunity, I think, to like, be an inspiration to people about I say, a lot in my business, like how to carve your own path for change, how to create the the career, the leadership and the life that you want. And actually making some of those decisions, even if they might not be the same as what everybody else is doing, or the same paths as everybody else, or the tried and tested way of approaching something or the tried and tested way of you know, expanding and accelerating in your career. Because if I kind of look back on my life, I've had a very, like non traditional life, even though I ended up in a, you know, pretty much traditional family, like, you know, male breadwinner, stay at home mom, siblings, you know, like a kind of a very traditional upbringing, I think probably like, the stuff that I had in life has really just kind of encouraged me and given me maybe the permission to think about things really differently. And to approach things really differently. Because I do kind of being like, we have one chance at this life, like we're not, we're not here, again, it's like we get one opportunity. So it's about making the most of it. And if I can, like, I want to always make sure that I'm doing that for myself. But if I can also start to help others and inspire others to do that as well, then I think that's really meaningful.

I love that perspective on life itself. And I'm really curious, where and how in your journey, did it shift from, I guess, corporate work and just kind of making money for yourself, but also shifting over to this, helping leaders and helping others and really focusing on on really improving kind of change in the work for others? Like, where did that shift come from?

Lata Hamilton  
I think I still love to make money to be completely transparent, like I do, I do truly believe that. We don't go to work for fun. Like we obviously we can have fun at work. But like I often say to like my clients or my students, I'm like, it's not a hobby, you're actually going to get remunerated. So it is absolutely okay to want to be paid and to want to be paid well, and to have the confidence to actually earn your worth. And that is something you know, that I that I share with my students a lot. Saying that I also started to notice that it was like there was this minute, like, a limited amount of impact that I could have doing the work that I was doing. So how I actually ended up making the move into change management was that I had done meaningful communications at university. And so that was very journalism, heavy, like media, media, heavy journalism, heavy, their communications was a little bit of it. But then when I moved into my corporate career, it was really about climbing that corporate hierarchy. It was about like, the the model that I had, which was my, my father, he had been in corporate himself, he had climbed the corporate hierarchy over like 25 years, I'd watched that the the model of success and how you get success in your career financially, and then, you know, it'd be able to use that as the launching pad to the rest of your life. So I have watched him sort of climb the corporate corporate ladder, get promotion, after promotion, pay raise after pay raise. 

So in my mind, Centerforce, after university, like I just sort of thought that that was the only way you could do it. That was the only approach that you could take. And then very quickly, on just a couple of years into my corporate career, I realized that I'm not my dad. I'm not a 50 year old white man, I'm actually a Gen Y. I am you know, female, and I've actually got a lot of creativity, a lot of ambition and a lot of potential within me, and the desire to actually do more and to accelerate faster. And I have been doing some some research and things like that on the differences in the generations and like they kind of say that baby boomers really like the builders, they were the ones that kind of like created and set up a lot of the structures in our society, so it makes sense that they then were able to be successful in those structures that they set up that then Gen X kind of went and improved. But we're kind of always a little bit stopped a little bit by baby boomers. And then Gen Y, who were the kids of baby boomers, were the ones that are like, we can do anything, we can rule the world, we can, you know, like, have whatever we want. And we deserve to have whatever we want. And we kind of really ambitious, so it was interesting, really early on entering the workforce, because my leaders were often Gen X. So they were like, No, you've got to do your time, you've got a, you know, like, you can only sort of work in this little realm of your job. And like, you can't necessarily like I like to kind of be able to add value wherever I need, wherever I see it in the organization and jumping in top, wherever. But it was like, no, no, this is like your or your role. And you've got to do your time for you can step a step up to leadership or get promotions or do that sort of stuff. So sort of just realize this, like, this isn't actually in this corporate hierarchy doesn't fit me it doesn't fit, my personality doesn't fit where I am in work in the world and in the history of the world. So that's when I kind of was like, I need variety, it is a challenge. And I still want to be able to accelerate my career and earn great money as well. So I don't want to necessarily leave those things behind. But I want to find a different way of doing that. And so the way that I did that was through projects. And it was really interesting, because then within just a couple of years, I was able to actually have a lot of impact on a lot of people across organizations like massive organizations with 100,000 people being involved or being impacted by the changes that I was working on. Even though I was really just a few years into my career, it was just by going through a different channel. And doingnreally different way to like get the outcomes that I wanted and have the experiences that I wanted, which was I wanted to be able to have variety, I wanted to be able to have challenge working on projects is very challenging, you have a short deadline to be able to deliver usually like massive transformations. And you've got like a usually a dedicated team who are all coming together around this, this outcome and to do it as quickly as possible variety because then like, you know, working in projects, you're not in a role for two to five years, stepping up waiting, waiting, waiting. Instead, you are moving to different types of projects and some of the breadth and diversity like I've worked across so many different industries, like I've worked across insurance, I've worked across government, I've worked across financial services and banking, I've worked across consumer goods now manufacturing, like just so, so many diverse industries, but then even the types of changes within industries. So if you don't know much about change management, like I love to define things really simply. So I just kind of say it's like moving people from doing things in one way in an organization to doing things in a new way in an organization. And so that can be any kind of organizational change that can be anything that's happening, it could be a change in process or a new process, new product, new service, new team structure, new operating model, it could be like a new technology, a new platform, the move to remote work, the move back to the office, regulatory changes, compliance changes. So it's like the amount of diversity that I can also have in the work that I do, working on projects and working in change. It's like really kind of ticks that variety box for me and kind of keeps things fresh and also keeps me learning and growing as an individual as well, because I often be working on changes that I've never worked on before. And having to learn like whole areas and like whole specialist areas as quickly as possible in order to be able to add value as quickly as possible. And then just really the impact the ability to be a leader without necessarily having to be a people manager or necessarily having to climb the corporate hierarchy. And really getting to help people at the times that it matters most. Change brings up a lot of anxiety for people it brings up a lot of fear. There's a lot of concerns around like loss and like what it's going to mean for me and in some cases, it's a very real survival instinct and survival fear because it can actually truly be related to people's jobs to people like to to layoffs and to people losing their livelihood. So at the time that it matters most at the time when people are most vulnerable at the time when they're most looking for a way forward when they're looking for options for the future possibility for the future inspiration for the future, that's where I'm able to come in, and actually help them see things in a different way, and maybe take less of a clinical approach to change management, less of a traditional approach to change management, which is really often about like focusing on all of the logical reasons why focusing on how to manage risks and problems. And I'm like, people are not problems, like I like to say, like manage problems, lead potential, people are potential. And so you can really tap into actually lead people in a different way, and take a really inspiring and empowering approach to change management, so that, instead of just managing the process of change, you're actually paving the way for future changes, you're actually getting people empowered around themselves around their own career around what it is that they want. So that it doesn't matter what happens down the track, it doesn't matter what happens in the future, they've got those tools and those internal resources built within them already, which also helps organizations because then they're ending up with a workforce that is flexible, that is agile, that can bounce back after a challenge, which like, we know that change and challenge are always going to be coming down the line. So it's like how can we arm an arm or our people to actually be able to, to respond to that in a more proactive way, rather than really reactively. So that's kind of where a lot of the leadership philosophy sort of comes from. It's around this balance between being like leader lead, and which I think is really important for organizations like it is, like you do look up to your own, like manager, your own leader for guidance for, for comfort, for, in some cases, you know, where your career could go, because they might be an advocate for you in the organization. But there's also this thing around sort of activating the grassroots level, and activating team members themselves to start to shift what they believe is possible. Because if we always keep everything kind of top down, and leader lead, which is a really traditional way of approaching change management, if we keep everything top down leader lead, you're always going to have people who are waiting sitting in the wings, waiting for direction, waiting for somebody to tell them that it's okay to move forward waiting for permission to take the next step in their career, or take the initiative on on a challenge or approach project in the organization. And instead, we really want to be creating healthy workforces. Really positive cultures, and really engaged empowered people who can help shape the future. Like it doesn't need like all of the responsibility, that responsibility doesn't need to rest on the shoulders of the leaders, it can be shared. And so a lot of what I also do is around co creation and co-design with the teams and like how can you start to bring them in to start to have input into what that future looks like. So in the past a lot of change, especially if it's something like an operating model change, especially if it's something like a restructure, where there might be jobs that are impacted. It's all done behind closed doors. It's all done, you know, like in secret, and there are reasons for that. Because legally, depending on which country you're in, there might be particular processes that have to be followed policies that have to be met. So they are reasons for doing things behind closed doors. But when it becomes available, and more openly known and acknowledged and announced, it's like how can you co create and co-design. So like one of the things that I've sort of created and crafted is this idea around like a job hackathon. So it's like, you actually take the team's like, obviously you moving them through the stages of change, and starting to combat their fears and things like that. But then you also get them to the stage where you're like, I don't want to calibrate on on fear anymore. I want to start to calibrate on hope. Because if you calibrate on fear all the time people get burnt out, they get resentful, they lose all of the internal motivation and self esteem. If you keep calibrating on fear, like you will, like you'll never have the energy to really see the change through to success. And into the future. You don't want to have people so burnt out by a change that like straight after the change that just they can't do anything more. There's nothing left in them. They're just completely drained. So instead it's about calibrating on hope, and actually going, why don't you have a hand in what this new design should look like on what these new jobs should look. Back in it, and it's about starting to build that trust starting to build that co creation and CO design and going like, you're the people on the ground who do the doing, like, how should some of this be set up? How can some of this be done and actually creating an event around it, creating an experience around it, creating energy and excitement around it. And that's kind of an example of like, one of the ways where you can really start to shift, like the involvement that team members at a grassroots level have and sort of start to get the sort of grassroots bottom up, leader led top down. And I always kind of say, like, the magic happens in the middle, the magic meets in the middle, to get sort of, like success through the change success through.

Jeff Ma  
And, you know, everything you're saying is, is just a great way of putting some of the things that I always think about, but your perspective around change itself is so important. I think, in my line of work, at least in working with people around culture, it has changed at the center of usually their conversation, their problem, people don't even think about looking to address it. Unfortunately, people aren't looking to address their culture until they face a problem. A lot of people, a lot of corporations and businesses, leaders, they they come looking for help with their culture, because they face something that is insurmountable, or they've tried to change and failed, or all these things. And what you're saying and what you're describing in addressing that change is, you know, I see the word resilience in in that a team that is resilient, is what you're describing. And I love the way you're framing it very specifically and tactfully in terms of how to have that, that team come together. And I have, I guess, a little bit more probing around that. Because one of the things that I know it requires when we want successful change is and you've already started touching on this. But it really comes down to getting people involved and engaged in this in not just the change, but on a day to day basis with the work itself. So I know you're very passionate about that piece. I was wondering if you could add a little bit more specifically on how people are wired for engagement, like how do you truly get a workforce a team? group of people engaged in what's going on? You mentioned the hackathon. But like what are some other kind of cultural elements that need to be built in from a leadership level or organization level for engagement?

Lata Hamilton  
Yeah, it's a great question. And if I was sort of looking at root cause, and a lot of organizations, especially, maybe organizations that have gone down the path of like a cultural change, or a shift in their ways of working, where they're wanting to be more flexible, they're wanting to be more agile, they're wanting to be able to pivot more quickly. So they're really trying to put ways of working and practices into their organizations or methodologies into their organizations that will allow their teams to do that. And then what I often see is the root cause as to why that's not successful, is simply because the risk appetite in the organization never changes. So the if you want to empower your people, if you want to give them the ability to own their own work, if you want to give them the ability to make decisions, and to be able to solve problems, using their own initiative, and then escalate when appropriate and necessary. You also need to have given them enough trust, you need to have built the governance models internally, in order to be able to actually hand over some of that accountability and responsibility to them. So often, I'll sort of see, like, like at the broader general organizational level, or the junior levels, I'll say like, there's all of these great principles being sprouted about, you know, ownership of your own job ownership of your own tasks, ownership of your own career. And that can switch a lot of people on internally like it can make them internally motivated, because they're like I have, like everybody wants to feel power in their own life and their own career. And I think that so much resistance to change is simply because people feel disempowered. They feel like the decision was taken out of their hands. If there's like layoffs, for example. There's a good portion of the people who already wanting to leave, they were already feeling stuck in their job. They feel like they weren't growing that was starting to get bored or maybe they didn't like the people that they were working with etc, etc, etc. Whatever. They're reasons where they weren't actually really happy in the role or in their job, they might have been okay in the organization, but they might have even been thinking of jumping organization, but they never got around to it. Like kind of like sitting on their hands kind of waiting. And then suddenly, boom, restructure, operating model changes announced. And suddenly they're furious, and they're upset, and they're hurt. And they're, you know, angry. And it's like, But you already knew that you'd outgrown your role or outgrown this organization. And it's simply because you took the choice away from them, you took the power out of their hands. And so it's just because they didn't get to make the decision on their terms. So like autonomy and power in in your own work, and in your own role, and how you go about doing that is super important. For most people, there are some personalities, who are much more enjoy much more kind of, I guess, following a little bit more than having a bit more direction, and a bit more guidance, and sort of, they feel really great building on the successes of other people before them, or on the ways that or the methods or the initiative that other people have taken. But still generally like everybody needs to have a little bit of that sense of autonomy and power in their work.

So when we come back to these, like these organizations that are trying to create these cultures of flexibility and agility and ways of working, it's like, the workforces are being told these principles of how we're going to approach things moving forward and into the future. But all of the decision making processes in the organization, all of the sign offs on things like budgets, all of the sign offs on things like decisions, or, you know, strategy, Vision delivery, like timings, all of these sorts of things, still sit with senior leadership. So the risk appetite never changed. And the accountability and governance models in the organization never change. So no matter what the teams are doing at a grassroots level, they always end up bounced, like coming up against and being stopped by the existing hierarchical, like governance and decision making powers. So it really what it comes down to is that trust, it's about building the capabilities internally and within each person to be able to own their own work or in their own career, if they've got like skills gaps, or, you know, motivation gaps, or anything like that, supporting and developing them to do that. But then also making sure that like everything else in the organization, is actually set up and geared to be a being able to support them to actually fulfill on those approaches and those ways of working that you are desiring. And so because you can have people's internal level of motivation. But if they consistently aren't able to get things over the line, if they're consistently not able to get things through, it's actually probably you're probably doing more damage than if you didn't take that approach at all around, you know, having a culture where people can, people can step up, and people can make decisions. And people can be flexible and agile, it would probably be better to have a more of a command and control culture if you're not actually going to follow through on it. 

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, and I was just about to follow up with that. I feel like what you're saying makes a whole lot of sense. And you nailed it on the head. It's a risk averse kind of culture we see that is built intentionally, like from the the old industrial era of way of working, we are still command and control because there's no trust for for others. So how do you coach leaders and organizations through this in the sense of if they need to take this risk, if you will, but many of how they're built in their DNA, a lot of these organizations, especially the older ones, larger ones, are built from the ground up with risk aversion in mind. And leaders are scared of, if I open this up for people to take over, and I don't like what they're doing, you know, I'm gonna have to rip it away from them and lose even more trust. And I don't know, like there's this sense that leaders have to maintain that control. How do you what do you say to those organizations and leaders?

Lata Hamilton  
It's a really tough one, because exactly what you mentioned like a lot of the board positions, CEO positions, executive and C suite positions senior leadership positions.They are actually being taken up by baby boomers who are still in the workforce. Gen X who haven't been able to move up because the baby boomers are still in the workforce. So they're like coming up against that. So like these older generations, but we are starting to have like, I think the biggest generation in the workforce now is actually Gen Y. So, like, we are starting to become that central generation. And I think, as more of us get into positions of leadership, authority and influence, we can start to transform the approaches of both because I think if you us a lot of Gen X. And even to a certain extent, a lot of baby boomers like the baby boomers, when they were working in that way back, say when things were much more stable and change was changed was much slower for organizations and the world was globalized, but not as connected and as globalized as it is now simply because technology hadn't taken off as much yet. So I'm thinking like the 80s 90s, early 2000s, for example, like that was a kind of like a good heyday for baby boomer Korea. But if you ask them what it is that they want to now, for a lot of them, it's to leave a legacy. They want to set the future generations up for success. But they've been in positions of leadership for so long, they have had more of that command and control culture for so long and approach for so long, that they're actually feeling very nervous to leave their organizations in the hands of the generations coming after them. But they actually really want to leave a legacy, they want to shape the future, they want to, they want to leave, you know, they want to leave the people, the people that they're leaving behind, they want to set them up for success for the future. So it's sort of starting to, for example, for that generation starting to tap into, like, what does that look like for you? What would it look like in order for you to be able to retire and maybe make way for Gen X to start to move up into your roles? What would it take for you to feel comfort, comfortable and confident for more junior generations to kind of start to come up. And it might not be all of the traditional MBAs and all of the traditional leadership programs that they used to sending their people on, which are a bit more sort of like technical and kind of like very much. Instead, it's might be around, like these new styles of leadership and these new approaches to leadership. And like, what I talk a lot about is like fit for purpose, like not following a bouncing ball, for example, when it comes to change leadership, but giving people a whole heap of tools, and then giving them the confidence to be able to make the right decisions in the moment. And using the tools that are going to add the most value at that specific time. So that's what I talk a lot about in my program leading successful change, then the so that's kind of like the baby boomer generation, I think it's really about helping them tap into that legacy and helping them tap into what where would you love to see business, the work force, potentially your own organization, if you are a senior leader, for example? Or even if you're like anybody in the organization for that generation, it's like, what legacy? Do you want to leave? Like, what? What knowledge? Do you want to have shared back into the organization? What intelligence Do you want to have, like left there to be retained by the people who are going to be staying in the organization?

Lata Hamilton

So tapping into that, for Gen X, they're a bit of an interesting bunch. And they're probably the ones that I can like least relate to just because from a mindset perspective, I don't quite like I think that there are very, there are a generation that isn't quite sure who they are. And a lot of them, their kids are started to move out of home. And I remember reading something, it's like, they're the children of divorce and daycare. So they are kind of like this, this generation that they probably have all of the same dreams as everybody else. And maybe they just haven't had the opportunity to fulfill on them. And because, again, because in a lot of cases, their their career progression, and their leadership has been sort of stifled by baby boomers just staying in the workforce for so long. So with Gen X, it might be about sort of helping them tap into, okay, well, like do you need to be working five days a week. Now that your kids have moved up and out of home, for example, like, potentially there's a different way for you to work, maybe you move into consulting, maybe you work part time and work really flexibly as you kind of like move your way to retirement instead of working yourself to the bone until you hit retirement age. And then you're so tired and burnt out and exhausted and resentful that you don't get to enjoy it because I'm seeing a lot of baby boomers like really enjoying their retirement. But I'm seeing a lot of Gen X, they're not there yet, they don't have the wealth built, they don't have the assets behind them to be able to kind of really gracefully sort of move into retirement. The other thing I'd really say for Gen X, and I do say this with a lot of my students who are a bit older, is, some of them have like 20 years in the workforce ahead of them. So if they're like in their 40s, for example, they might not be retiring by the time they hit sort of like retirement age, I don't know what that is, in, you know, the country of whoever's listening, or in America. But in Australia, it's sort of like I think around like 60s 65-67. So like, by the time you hit that, if you're in your 40s, now, you've still got two decades of your career ahead of you. So in some cases, for Gen X, it might actually be around opening up their mind to the possibility of career change. Because it's not too late, they could have three in 20. I've not even been in the workforce for 20 years, and I've already had like four or five careers. So they could have literally like three really robust careers in the space of how much time they have left in the workforce if they work right through until retirement age. So again, it could be opening up their minds and their possibilities to alternative paths and alternative ways of doing things an alternative to maybe what they've been building up for the last 20 years. And then when we get to Gen Y, I think it's really about activating, activating this generation. And I know, maybe from the outside, like, it looks like we're all like eating avocado toast and taking trips to Europe, put my hand up, like it is true. But we're also starting to shift and change as well, we're now like the central generation, there's more of us than there are, like baby boomers, for example. So it's like, we're starting to have families and settle down, we're starting to look for some of those maybe more traditional options, around stability around security, but we also want to help shape and change the world. And, you know, like some of the decisions that Gen Y makes, will be the determining factors of our world, our environment, and like the future of our work and workplaces, because we're also starting to step up into those leadership positions. So I think for Gen Y, it is really about actually giving them the tools to be able to help them in leadership, to be able to help them like that it's okay for them to be ambitious, that it's okay for them to have dreams that it's okay for them to have a different way of approaching things and that flexibility and fluidity. Because I know from my own experience, and from the experience of peers, a lot of that got stamped out of us really early on in our career. Like we were kind of told no, like, hold back, like like, like, hold it hold a little bit back, like you're going too far too fast. And I know like a lot of my students, for example. And clients even that I've been I've coached in the past, like they, it's almost like they feel guilty for having this ambition, they feel guilty for wanting to have a positive impact on like their workforce in the world. They feel guilty for wanting to build a great life for themselves as almost about sort of taking away some of that guilt and just going like you are allowed to do whatever you want have the life that you want, you know, have the impact that you want with other people and the influence that you want with other people and work together, collaborate and work together to build the future. And like actually giving them the opportunity to do that. So tapping them into what's really a value and relevance to them right now in their particular life stage. Because they are often building families. So tapping into that, and then also also helping them to not lose that spark, to not lose that spark of ambition and potential and an impact instead going, these things can coexist. And, again, you don't have to necessarily, like keep climbing the corporate hierarchy, I think there will be a really big shift in job design, in terms of like the future of work. So like I think in the next five to 10 years, all of the all of those traditional hierarchies and stepping stones and stepping ladders to get to like senior leadership. I don't think that's not it's not that they're going to go away. It's just that there's going to be more channels available to be able to have impact and influence whether that is doing more flexible work like contracting. So I was a direct contractor for several years, whether it's having more consulting work, so I'm now a consultant. So I work with several organizations at once. supporting them with like change services and change capability. Or maybe it is about actually having changes within your organization around job design, where it's not necessarily that this person has this you know, like A ring around the work that they do that instead, maybe it's about the value that they offer. And then whatever tasks help them add that value that falls into their remit and their role and responsibility. Now, I'm not saying that I've seen this happen, like, it's starting to get there a little bit, but I think that Gen Y, like our generation of millennials, like we have the opportunity, if this is the kind of like world and workforce that we want to experience down the track, we can start to shape it now we're starting to get into the positions of authority and influence where we can start to shape those alternative paths. And I think that that will be great for everybody, it will help every generation the generations before us and the generations that come after us as well.

Lata Hamilton  
I love that breakdown. A lot of it very, very relatable. And I'm already seeing some of these things coming through. I think you're right, about what what's to come. And, and I look forward to it. I think that a lot of this change is slow, some of it can be painful, but a lot of is necessary and inevitable. So I love that breakdown. I love that analysis. And I think it's very, very helpful to hear your perspective on on how that those pieces moving pieces kind of fit together and, and really play out for a lot of us in that way. So lots of I want to make sure. Before you go that we hear a little bit just a little bit of more about what leading successful change is in what it is you do if people can reach out or find out more what can they do? Yeah, absolutely. So leading successful change is a six week online Change Leadership Program where you learn fit for purpose, change delivery, to fit for purpose, practical application. So you'll like learning skills and tools that you can literally like I have students who learn them. And then like the next day, they go and apply them straight into their workforce. And it's really built around having that vibrant, empowering and inspiring energy and approach behind the way that you go to lead change and the way that you go to deliver change. So you can actually find out more and during the program at Latahamilton.com/lse. And definitely come and follow me on LinkedIn, I share a lot about this sort of stuff. And it like it is quite broad. Like I'll sometimes write posts, for example, on my perspective on the different generations or my perspective on the future of work or my perspective on the future of change. So definitely come and follow me on LinkedIn, you can find me under Lata Hamilton. And yeah, and if you need any help with your, with your changes, or you're wanting to build change capability in your organization, you can come and find me. Like just connect with me on LinkedIn. And we can have a chat.

That's awesome, Lata thank you so much for the time today. And thank you to the listeners for tuning in. Once again, we hope you're enjoying these episodes and others. So check out the book. If you haven't love as a business strategy. I'll always plug it forever and forever. But also subscribe and rate the podcast. Let us know what you think. And we look forward to hearing from you. And with that. Thank you so much for the time allotted. Thank you so much to our audience, and we'll see everybody next