Kasia Siwosz  
I believe that banking industry needs to start waking up and catching up to what is happening on the street. When you actually walk into an office of any investment bank, it is still the same look and feel as it was in the 80s is quite dark cubicles, nothing green, maybe you're gonna get like a coffee machine somewhere. But it's, it's kind of designed just to you know, put your head down, you know, do the hours and kind of, you know, just leave

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to Love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I want to have conversations and hear stories with real people and real businesses in the real world. And my guest today is Kasia Siwosz  Originally a professional tennis player. She then moved her career into investment banking and entrepreneurship, eventually leading her to combine her experiences from the financial world, with elite sports becoming a career coach for mid to senior level bankers. She specializes in helping bankers with career transitions, promotions, and the development of essential leadership skills that will take them to the next level, Kasha Welcome to the show. How are you?

Kasia Siwosz  
Hi, Jeff. I'm great. Well, thank you for having me.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. And, you know, I'm so excited to have this conversation. Because in many, many ways, you're playing in a very unique space, whether it's from combining your professional sports background with the business world, but also specifically focusing in coaching on kind of leadership behavior and skills in specifically the financial aspect in the banking industry. So I want to dive into all those things. But I have to start with a little bit more about your professional tennis background. Tell me about your career in tennis.

Kasia Siwosz  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Jeff, I am originally from Poland. And as a little girl, growing up in sort of 30, early stage post communist country, I would say sport was probably one of the very few areas where you had a possibility of, you know, seeing the world, it was early days, where not everyone was getting a passport. So I would say sport back then was considered something probably a passport to outside world more than even education. And it started, you know, as a hobby, where I followed my brother. But I think my parents quickly realized that maybe there was a potential maybe they could invest a little bit more time, you know, and money in, in my training. And it quickly became my passion. And to be honest, if from one thing to the other, I, I felt like you know, I was really emerged in it sort of full time from such a young age as it is very technical sport. And, you know, one sort of tournament led to the other enemy progressing in the rankings sort of nationally in Poland, allow me to start traveling outside. And I start competing internationally. And eventually I was playing on a professional level. So that's, you know, more or less how it started. And yeah, so it's been very exciting journey that maybe not everyone can experience which has has it sort of up and downs. But yeah,

Jeff Ma  
that's amazing. And I guess where did that take you? From there? I know obviously into the investment banking world, things like that. But after the tennis career, talk about that transition a little bit.

Kasia Siwosz  
Yeah, absolutely. So it you know, playing tennis was my dream of becoming next you know, Steffi Graf Maria Sharapova and to be honest with you, probably anyone else out there that is pursuing professional sports is something that you you know, wake up with and, you know, go sleep with thinking and dreaming about, but I personally reached a point where I was good I couldn't be better. But I made a conscious choice of ending the journey because I was given an opportunity to move to the states where I could get a scholarship, I could continue playing tennis and get a great education. So it was not an easy transition, or an easy decision to, I guess, go from this part of my life that was essentially consuming it all, to something completely different. But it was something that I thought is the right choice for me if I wanted to have a different life outside of tennis. And so I I've transitioned and I will continue playing tennis at UC Berkeley, at a very high level. And that transition was very interesting, because I was always a part of a very individual sport, the tennis is where it's very difficult to make friends with your peers, you know, that you might be competing against, into a very sort of team oriented environment where even though as a tennis player, you play your individual matches, if you combine them and you win your match against, we're playing in Stanford or UCLA, if I win my match, but we collectively lose, I still lose. So it was a big change for me in transition where I had to start thinking, Well, you know, what, I have to actually do more than look after myself. And those skills were just not present. And I would, we would practice, and the coaches would reward or punish us in a different sort of way for not being part of the team. And all of us 10 girls that were on a team went through this transition, which, you know, sometimes was just quite quite difficult. But looking back, that was probably something that I remember the most, and has changed me in so many ways to really appreciate the power of being on the team of the power that I the support that you get from your teammates through different times. Regardless, whether you play position number one, position number six, it's really irrelevant, we would still compete against each other and try to you know, beat each other. But when we all, you know, we're on a court, something magical was happening. And I said, We will cheer for each other, it was not so much myself on his own in a zone. It was thinking about, you know, seeing my teammate, you know, two courts down, let's say losing, and even just, you know, shouting across the court, you know, let's go Napoli or let's go Murray. It was really like building the team, spirit and environment and you never felt alone, if that makes sense.

Jeff Ma  
Yes, yes. I, I am fully behind this background in in leading into what you do. Because when people ask me, What does a strong team or strong organization look like and they kind of lean on analogies, like family, and things like that. I always disagree. I always feel like, you know, your work team should not feel like family, mainly because we don't get to choose our family. We're forced to have that family but we get to choose where we work. And I think a sports team is always the closest analogy I can give the sports team that's coming together to fight for the championship and things like that together is the closest feeling I try to give people to understand so I love that you have that background flowing into kind of how you coach and lead today and I wanted to kind of understand better why you chose to take that unique coaching background and your your interests but directed specifically to the financial industry or an investment banking bankers and things like that. It's a unique I asked because that's that's like choosing, in my opinion, one of the hardest places to start or to one of the hardest areas to focus on so tell me a little bit about that.

Kasia Siwosz  
Yeah, um, You are 100%, right? I mean, first of all, it, that was my experience in banking that led me to what I was able to connect with my clients much better understand the journey. And I think I see a lot of similar trades where it is very competitive to get into finance, especially investment banking. And that is an area of finance that is considered very cutthroat, very individualistic. People, you know, are perceived on the street as greedy. But, you know, nevertheless, I've been there and you know, not everyone can say that you are able to work 100 or 120 hours a week, for many, many years, and be okay with it. So what I see similar to finance is that it's not just the job, like, you cannot be just an athlete, you have to take it beyond to be successful. But what I see also a problem a little bit is, you go into finance, and you try to become this lonely wolf, and try to make your way up. And I feel like, from my own personal perspective, and experience, as well as my clients, I see that the trend continues. And that trend also is a main reason why people change industries leave or just want to even switch banks or switch teams just to see, I feel like they seeking more than just the money, they are actually seeking an environment where they're gonna feel, you know, like part of the team, which has never been encouraged up until today. And in fact, there have been a think initiatives put in place that rewards individualistic thinking, and thinking that only sort of support yourself. But also speaking to those individuals and coaching those that actually managed to transition into teams that put much more care into developing empathy, trust and the relationship that they have between each other, what I see is, then the money is much less relevant, they could be paid less, but they are less willing to change, they're more willing to stay. Because money becomes really secondary.

Jeff Ma  
So it's very interesting, because financial industries and banking, these are very much obviously driven by the bottom line is just about, you know, in there is this perception, like you mentioned of greed, and things that are prevalent, but they're based off of, I guess, some realities of the work the business, and especially how the industry has developed over time. So what what is the reason that these types of things like behaviors around teamwork and working helping others, why is that important in an organization that really just cares about bringing in maximum amount of dollars? An individual performance is currently praised, right? For for a reason why, what is that reason? And why should it matter? Why should it change in the banking industry?

Kasia Siwosz  
Yeah, you see, Jeff, I think, up until recently, banking has been perceived as probably, you know, one of the most prestigious professions you could have outside of college. You are earning, you know, 100k, your first year, which is a bit unheard of, right. So I think money has been driving very much the recruitment, the talent, attracting the talent and retaining the client, the talent, but over the last few years, you can definitely start seeing that banking industry is struggling to attract talent and retain talent. You know, back in the days, they were going only to like Wharton, Stanford and Harvard, but they're not going there anymore. That has been, you know, the technology industry has been very progressive towards the changes that you see on the leadership level. And I believe that banking industry needs to start waking up and catching up to what is happening on the street. When you actually walk into a office of any investment bank, it is still the same look and feel as it was in the 80s is quite dark cubicles, nothing green, maybe you're gonna get like a coffee machine somewhere. But it's, it's kind of designed just to, you know, put your head down, you know, do the hours, and kind of, you know, just leave. So in my opinion, the change needs to happen. And it's going like you say, it's not going to be easy, because the industry has been run by people that experienced that type of behavior and experienced the type of treatment for many, many years. And, you know, to tap into those people to actually reevaluate and start thinking about the teams in a different way different way and wanting them to leave a different legacy and start the movement and start with change, it is going to take quite a bit of time, I think it's a big ask. But at the same time, I would love that industry to change because many of my clients that decide to transition out of finance, or I keep seeing them sort of job hopping, they are really they don't want to define as they love what they do. But I think they just struggling to find the right team, where it's gonna allow them to live up to the potential that is going to invest in them and make them feel like at home.

Jeff Ma  
So you mentioned that it's going to take time, but what specifically is it going to take to change this giant industry that's driven very much it a singular purpose forward by by money, what's it going to take, in your opinion, to actually make an impact and change how people start treating each other here?

Kasia Siwosz  
I think any change, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you know, I'm sure across different industries, it works similarly, but it needs to start from the top, I believe, if the leaders on top are not going to change and show a different type of leadership, we cannot really expect it to happen at the level of analysts to associate or more junior guys. And it's a vicious cycle. Because if, if your boss if the Managing Directors treating director in a certain way, then the director is going to treat, you know, associate an analyst and exactly same way. And you can see this sort of pattern repeating you know, itself. So, in my opinion, you know, I think starting at the top, where the leaders actually can start developing different, you know, characteristics of, of the leadership that that is needed for them to change the whole environment is there but I also think that they've never really given themselves a chance, they've never really had the proper training. So I feel like right now, there is quite a bit of backlash and pointing fingers for them to change. And I think it's okay. But more importantly, I think, instead of pointing fingers is to present the solutions and how they can learn to become better leaders. And it's going to take in the beginning, the few that will actually be willing to try and I believe that financial industry once you know there will be a small changes visible across different teams and the world the word spreads very quickly, because when you think about it, financial industry is very well connected, whether you are London, New York, Singapore, people will hear about it quite quickly. So I believe if we can start the change on a smaller scale, and start presenting the real results, others will follow is just the the first you know, first change if your first team or first few teams that are actually gonna give it a go give it a try, and they can see the results. It will start, I think the whole transformation of this of the banking industry.

Jeff Ma  
And I definitely share that belief and hope and approach as well. But I think coaching in this way and guiding in this way specifically investment banking is pretty rare to kind of tackle specifically this industry and So why? Why is it important to you know, there's this, in my opinion, this global change that's happening, where everybody's kind of looking for a job that in some people's cases treats them better. But other places just feel fulfills other things besides just the income, and banking. Correct me if my perception is wrong or understanding is wrong, but banking notoriously kind of covers every the needs of people strictly through compensation, or kind of like, makes sure that you're paid more and more and more for your efforts, but kind of disregards every other aspects that that people might need, like you mentioned, the office is still just the same as it always has been, people's pay just keeps going up. How do we, how do we kind of understand the specific environment? How do we get this specific environment out of what I feel like is just a unique kind of space? And I just simplified as greed? But how do we get people to kind of care? How do we get people to when I work with other industries, there's these very tangible through lines of how love can really reach the bottom line. And it feels so much harder to paint that story in banking, where dollars are in every conversation. So how do you connect that when you speak to bankers and leaders?

Kasia Siwosz  
Yeah, it's a great question. I think, you know, since this industry is driven by a bottom line, since it is driven by compensation, when you actually flip it around, and start thinking about the very high recruitment fees that you have to pay to recruiters on ongoing basis, you know, hiring new staff is very, very costly. And then retraining staff is very costly. And then the reputation associated with your employees leaving on you know, after a year or two, it doesn't help either. So when you think about all these things is how much time and money is being wasted? For rehiring for retraining the staff that is highly sort of skilled, it takes away a precious time from the leaders on top to do the job that they're supposed to be doing, instead of, you know, micromanaging the team spending a lot of time on scheduling endless interviews, and follow ups. And I think they are starting to understand that the cost of not paying attention and not caring, it becomes actually significantly higher than actually giving a try and maybe investing in a program that could change things. And to be honest with you in the last year, or two or three, you could see the industry again, trying to keep the talent in by increasing their salaries twice a year, three times a year and not by inflation, by 10-20-30%. So they can they can see that this doesn't work anymore. And people continue leaving, even though the money is being invested in in compensation. So something has to change, because the money, you know, speaking to a lot of my clients that make really, really good money, at some point, you know, they say if you make above certain income, things really don't matter to me to you anymore. And it is very much true. You know, I coach people that make, you know, very, very good income, and they are looking for something more than just money that will bring them joy, satisfaction, and they want to be part of something better. So, like you said, you know, different industries are receptive to different things. But it is very costly for banking industry that, you know, tries to save what it can. So if they're not going to change anything, they're going to keep spending more money on retaining talent that eventually is going to dry out, and then they're not going to, you know, if nothing changes, you cannot expect anything better to happen.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. And I'm curious when you're coaching these mid to senior level bankers, where do you typically start? Where do you get them going from, if that makes sense? What's this? What's the start? What's the first thing they typically need to do to start going down this change?

Kasia Siwosz  
I think for everyone is a little bit different. But I would say a common theme is they just unhappy where they are, they want to change. And a lot of them questioning whether they should change a job, because they fear whatever else they move is going to be the same thing. So, you know, it's not so much a compensation that is holding them back, or, you know, they could be paid somewhere else much more, because a financial industry has pretty standard base salaries, and then bonuses and you know, dependent on your performance. But it becomes just really a big question mark, whether wherever they go, they will see the career progression, going upwards or downwards, and if the team around them who support the journey or not, who is in the team, that they potentially will join, or is staying in the current place a better choice. Some of them, you know, maybe are not feeling like they have a support internally to make a promotion to stay for long enough. And they are very often left on their own, just kind of waiting on things to happen. And what we do through, you know, our coaching sessions is I will challenge them to try different things to, you know, explore things externally as well internally. And also, they need to know what they really want from the career from the life now, but maybe in two or five or 10 years, especially the more senior they are, and the more senior they are, and they want to be part of something bigger, they want to be part of something that is different. They don't want to be part of this rat race anymore, they tired of it. And I think that's, that's very refreshing to see that this change is happening. And people want to invest themselves even in you know, coming from big sort of organizations, and they want to be part of something smaller, to have a bigger impact, but on a smaller scale. And I really admire those individuals.

Jeff Ma  
Is there it sounds like though, that they are often at least seeing themselves or positioned themselves as victims to the system of, of behavior, behaviors and expectations. Is there anything that they can do I mean, their mid to senior level leaders in these organizations? Typically? Is there anything that you coach them through that they can do to create the culture or the environment that they want for themselves? Or is it just up to the most senior leaders to make the change first?

Kasia Siwosz  
Yeah, I've, I always encourage them to start working on the leadership skills as soon as possible, because that's a skill that keeps developing and it never stops as like, you know, becoming a parent. No one teaches you how to do it. But if you, you have to keep trying, you have to keep educating yourself, and they can make a difference on a small scale. Don't take me wrong, I know, it's also quite difficult to be that, you know, enthusiastic, you know, trustworthy, empathetic leader, on the mid level where everyone around you is just, you know, playing their own game. So it takes a lot of energy for one person to you know, to change, you know, the whole system. But for those that actually tried and actually are following that lead, they are seeing a small changes over time, they are seeing the retention of junior guys, they are seeing a senior guys noticing it. It is a painful change to start by yourself. But I think those individuals see themselves also a little bit differently now, after you know, months and years of trying to be a different leader. And what you can see is and when they change jobs, a lot of times people follow them because they follow someone with the skills that are very rare to find. And they sometimes be surprised so that, you know, maybe when they actually make a change, because they were unable to make enough, you know, development in the in the previous place. They kind of surprised that everyone is reaching out to them because you know, no one really rewards you, when you're a parent, you never get things you never get any rewards. But yeah, I have few clients that they changed. And now people are reaching out to them say, hey, is there a place for me, I would love to be part of it, I think we can continue what you've started and it makes sense. And, you know, without you, it's going to be hell again. So, although you might not be able to see the real benefit straight away, it is happening, like nothing gets lost in the universe, I believe.

Jeff Ma  
And I love that. And I and I want to close on that point. Because I think it's so important. I think a lot of us the inspiration I take from you conscious that, you know, even in the what I see as the most difficult environment to try to plant the seed. I love to hear that people have been successful in forming these smaller pockets of love and care and leadership in that way. Because I think everybody needs to hear that that's possible and understand that that's, that's something that's happening even in in these these industries. Because a lot of us get paralyzed, waiting for someone above us or something bigger to happen, we're waiting for the train to start leaving the station before we jump on. And I truly believe that the only way we really all collectively bring humanity back to the workplace is if we all start moving ourselves before waiting for anyone else, no matter what level we're at this movement has to happen from all levels. And I agree with you, leaders and the top most leaders have to set the example. But we cannot wait for them either. I think we have to be doing what we can I love the example you shared where then senior leaders are seeing lower level leaders successful and learning and growing. We need these perspectives to flow. So I'm really excited that you get a chance to kind of coach people do that and see that and it's heartening to know that that's happening in the industry.

Kasia Siwosz  
It is it is but like you said, I mean, I think they myself, I was almost you know, as surprised as they were because it is very, I guess traditional well way of leadership in banking, but it's also very much a receptive industry to change and, and following the real sort of leadership that is going to allow people to live up to their potential, and they can feel like part of the team on top of making great money because no one says you cannot have both.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, I agree. Well, Kasia, I thank you so much for taking the time to share your story and your experience with us today. It was very inspirational for me to hear that type of success happening. And so I appreciate you taking that time and in joining us today.

Kasia Siwosz  
Thank you, Jeff has been pleasure.

Jeff Ma  
To our listeners appreciate you as always, please continue to subscribe and rate the podcast but also check out our book Love as a business Strategy if you get a chance. With that. We'll be putting out another episode next week. So we'll see you all!