Meredith Bell  
When we hear things that sound like judgments, then we tend to want to justify, explain, rationalize, give reasons for our behavior, and if we can learn to just put those reactions on pause and say and listen, be curious. What is it this person is telling me and have as our first response, thank you. I didn't realize that

Jeff Ma  
Hello and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. We want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff, ma and as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories about real people, real businesses, real life. And my guest today is the co founder and president of grow strong leaders. Meredith Bell. Meredith is an expert in leader and team communications and the author of three insightful books, as well as the host of the Grow strong leaders podcast. Her latest books, co authored by Dr Dennis Coates, connect with your team, mastering the top 10 communication skills and peer coaching Made Simple, they provide practical guides for improving communications and peer coaching and with a wealth of knowledge and a passion for transforming how we connect, Meredith Bell is really making an impact every day on personal and professional relationships. So I'm really happy to have you on the show today. Meredith, how are you?

Meredith Bell  
I'm great. Jeff, thank you for that very nice introduction. I'm really looking forward to our conversation

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. And I've had the pleasure of joining you on your podcast, the Grow strong leaders podcast, and so you're, you're a podcast veteran. I love that we can have, we could have, like a love one. I think I only had a couple other hosts on the show. And every time, it's always, it's always a good time, because we can share our notes at the end of it as well. 

Meredith Bell  
Yes

Jeff Ma  
so in my show here, I like to start with a simple question, pretty consistently. I'm I want to, I always want to know, Meredith, what is your passion and how did you find it?

Meredith Bell  
That's a great question. You know, for a long time, it's been consistent, and it's around helping other people realize their full potential. In fact, I've had this purpose statement for more than 10 years, and that is to serve and love profoundly so others appreciate their own value and maximize it. And the way that I apply that in our business is around helping leaders learn how to be as effective as they can possibly be, especially in the area of communication, because how they connect with others has everything to do with performance and job satisfaction and retention, and as You know, just a boatload of other important aspects of being an effective leader.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, and I sense that in you, in our in our relationship, in our conversation, I sense that passion all the time when we were talking about this show. I think there's a number of things that I want to tap your brain in, but we both agreed and we landed on feedback as this as as this topic to dive into, because when we talk about communication, we talk about relationships and like, kind of just what the intersection is between so much of what you do and what I do. Man, feedback is a tricky one, isn't it? It's so multifaceted. So I could not wait to have you on here and kind of break it open for us from your perspective, and doing what you do with the folks that you do, like really, kind of sharing what you've heard and seen. So maybe as a broad starting point, like talk about how you kind of structure feedback, or how how feedback exists in your world, and as a topic like, where do you how do you give us some shape for

Meredith Bell  
us Sure? Well, we kind of organize feedback in three different areas, and it makes it easier to kind of grasp what do we mean by feedback. So one aspect of it is noticing when people do things well and giving positive feedback. And we call that expressing appreciation, sure, and another aspect of it is giving constructive feedback. When someone has done something that's either caused a problem, has made a mistake, but needs to be it needs to be addressed. The behavior is not okay with what they did, and so that's. Constructive feedback giving that kind and then the third area is receiving feedback, which has to do with listening to others share feedback with you without dismissing it, getting defensive, or responding in a way that keeps people from sharing feedback with you in the future, because we all need that. We all have blind spots, and so that sort of a theme to me with feedback. It's an area of helping people see what it is they're doing well or where what it is they're doing that is creating a problem for someone or others within the organization.

Jeff Ma  
So two types of, I guess, giving in one type of like, one category of receiving. And is it, I guess, where do you begin with, folks? Is it? Is it more like, like, let you know, like, my head goes straight to this hypothetical, you know, difficult feedback conversation, and it is a two way street, even though one person's giving the other feedback. Is it, are we starting with the with the giver? Like, is it how we give feedback that is usually the problem, or is it how we receive feedback that's usually the problem? Like, where? Where do you see?

Meredith Bell  
You know, Jeff, it's in both places, because the the problem is in our world and our you know, I don't think it's specific to us in the US that we don't have the upbringing that helps us learn how to give or receive feedback. You know, our parents do the best they can, but most of them didn't have training or education in this area, and our school systems don't provide that kind of training, and so people are often uncomfortable giving feedback. I know there are many times when I have had this happen with me, and I know it's happened with many other people, where something has happened, you need to address it, but you're hesitant to do it, you're concerned about the person's reaction. You don't want to damage the relationship. So we can waste a lot of time rationalizing, Oh, this isn't a good time, you know it and on and on. And the reality is, it's so much simpler when we follow just a simple model. There's a model for each one of these, and I think a key aspect across all of them is noticing, you know, am I noticing the good behavior of someone else and highlighting that so I affirm what they're doing well, because most people get far more criticism than they do praise. And so I think that just adjusting our attitudes about what does feedback really mean? Well, it's information that we're giving to another person in the way of delivering it, whether it's positive or constructive, it is recognizing something that someone has done that either was a problem or was really good, and so we have to become aware and notice when these behaviors happen, so that we can then take the time to express that appreciation and the more specific It is in these cases both constructive and positive, the better, because if it's general, like, Oh, you did a great job. That doesn't give the person very much information to go on in terms of what behavior is wanted in the future. But if you can be very specific, like, I really liked the way you you went above and beyond in making sure the customer found what she was looking for on aisle three or whatever it was. You know, that very specific feedback about what the person did, because it affirms to them, not just their own value, but the behavior that you're wanting to see more of so it's a very positive thing on the constructive feed. Oh, go ahead.

Jeff Ma  
No, no, I was just it's got me thinking that, like the way you mentioned, you know, including positive feedback in one of the three is, like, in and of itself, a bit of a light bulb for some because I know, like, one time I got like, a text or a message or something from Mohammad, and he was like, Hey, I have some feedback for you, and let's talk later. And like, I was just like, in a state for the rest of the day, just like wondering, what is this feedback? And I was getting sweaty, and I was getting all, like, kinds of nervous, and, you know, at the end of the day, he was like, it was like, he was like, Hey, I just want to let you know you've been doing a great job on this and this and this. And I'm like, man, if you could just lead with that. Next time, that'd be great, but there's this, there's this fear and the stigma around yeah, like feedback is like a four letter word where we assume it's bad, we brace for impact, so you framing it positively first is something that I recognize is possible, but I'm wondering how we overcome like, this very definition of feedback that I guess we've crafted for ourselves.

Meredith Bell  
Well, you know, part of it, and I love what the example you just gave, because how much simpler would it have been for your life if he had just said, I have some positive feedback for you? Yeah, what a difference that I would have made in your day. Sure. So that's that's part of that awareness, though, because we tend to assume the worst, unless we, you know, are told otherwise, and so we can unnecessarily cause discomfort for others and not meaning to. And I think when we think of constructive feedback. One of the ways to kind of relax about it is thinking of it it, because all of it has to do Jeff, with our mindset going into it, and if we look at it as I have important information that this person may not realize, and I'm here to support them. And so some people object to what's called the sandwich method of of giving constructive feedback, where you start with a positive, then you deliver the message, and then you give positive at the end. I don't see it that way, and I think it's because of how I see it being done too often. I think leaders will jump right in to what the person did wrong, right and start instead of giving context. Let's say we have someone in customer service, and typically they've been really good, but we notice something they did with this particular customer. So we can and start instead of jumping in with what they did wrong to say, you know, Jeff, normally, you are such a model of customer service. You know, you're always positive and encouraging. I noticed today that when you were talking to Mrs. Jones, you interrupted her three times and you had this impatient tone in your voice, and when she left, she did not look happy. So that's a explaining the person's performance is normally a positive. But here's a situation where it didn't go well, and then what often doesn't happen is listening. You know, we think we need to deliver the feedback and then send them on their way, and we skip some steps. And so if we can become curious after we've explained, here's the behavior that was the issue, and just say what was going on with you today, or what, you know, what was behind what happened today to allow them, because we don't know what kind of personal news they might have gotten, or, you know, a situation they might be dealing with that would have them out of sorts. And sometimes we jump to conclusions and judge the person, and they're going to be defensive as they're listening to us, because they see the aggression in our body language, in our voice, and instead, if we can remain calm and just share what happened and the impact, so that being specific about the situation, what was the impact? It looked like she left unhappy. We could have lost a customer, and she may share her dissatisfaction with other people. So the risk is losing more than one customer and giving them a chance to talk about what was going on, because there may have been something that that person said that triggered something in them. You know, we don't know what those dynamics were, and so to have them have the opportunity to explain that, listen, talk about it, and then reset the expectations, the standards, so that they're clear, and you get agreement, you know, in the future, if this happens again, you know, and then you can Describe what is an option you would want them to follow instead of what they did, and then get them to agree is that something you're willing to do, because too often, we just assume they will, you know, we told them so they ought to know, but we don't get that agreement and commitment on the behavioral standard that we're resetting for the person,

Jeff Ma  
yeah, I get contextually in kind of like the examples you're giving, I get the sense that the person giving the feedback is like, in a position of power over the person that they're so, you know, you're kind of giving them your perspective, but also kind of setting expectations and kind of being. The boss. I guess that situation, I find that a lot of leaders do struggle with that aspect, but I think even more people in general struggle with feedback that goes like laterally or upwards, even in terms of position and hierarchy, is the approach the same there where you're not, you don't have the authority, it really is your opinion being brought to the table where you may not have, you know, weight in what you say. Like, how does that dynamic change?

Meredith Bell  
Yeah, that's a great point, and the the steps are similar if, let's say, you're addressing a team member, you know, and if there have been team norms and behaviors that have been established, and the person has violated one of those, it's, I think it's appropriate and desirable for a team member to address that with another person, with a peer, and just explain the impact on them, because we can't, obviously direct them to do a specific behavior, but we can have the conversation, because all a lot of times, people make mistakes inadvertently. You know they weren't intentionally. Most people are not intentionally trying to do harm to others in the workplace. There are, of course, exceptions, but for the most part, if we can assume positive intent of others and the fact that they just didn't realize how they came across or what impact their actions had bringing that up to them is important, and I think timing is critical. You know, we need to be able to be calm ourselves, and we need to ask the other person, is this a good time for us to talk? There's something I'd like to discuss, to find out, because they may have had something right before that that caused them to not even be able to listen. We don't know. So getting their agreement on that, I think, is important. And you know, the one, the last step I didn't mention, that applies across the board, is just offering support. You know, I'm on your side. I'm with you, if you want me to give you any more feedback on this, or you want help as you're working on this, I'd be I'm here for you, so it's helping that person know you're not pointing the finger at them. You're just raising an issue or a problem that they may not even be aware of.

Jeff Ma  
In the category of constructive feedback, I've often divided it into two types. There's what I would call the more formal or or performance based feedback, and then I've I also think there's behavioral or relational feedback, so the former being, you know, like your numbers are down, or the way you approach this problem, you know, can be different. And the latter being like, you know, kind of more like, hey, the way you spoke to me hurt my feelings, or the way that you approach that situation caused, you know, this type of relational change and shift. And I divide those because I find that many of us, when we say feedback, we really resort to that first type, the professional, the formal type, and especially in the workplace, that's what's appropriate, and we shy away from kind of behavioral feedback is difficult because it's more subjective. It's more your opinion, and it could harm the relationship or could cause feelings. What is it? What is your stance on kind of those two types, and whether they belong, whether they don't like how do we, how do we tackle this, this large problem? Because I personally come from a place where, like, there's growth in all types of feedback from all types of feedback. But but it's more nuanced when it comes to that relational behavior. Yeah,

Meredith Bell  
you're right. That is an interesting distinction, because on the performance side, when you're talking about numbers, it's, it's either you achieved it or you didn't. There's, there's not an interpretation involved. You know, you either have have met the goal or you didn't, whereas the other, like you're saying, with behaviors, we can shy away from it because we don't want the person to think we're judging them. And yet, if we don't address where there was an issue for us, let's take somebody interrupting because we actually had this in our company, my two business partners and I have worked together now for 32 years, and we did 360 feedback within our company, and then he got feedback on interrupting. And so we decided to help him by doing a. Couple of things when he started to interrupt. One was, if we were in person, we would hold up our hand like a stop sign, and he would realize, oh, I need to back off. And the other one was to simply say, I wasn't done yet. Please let me or Please let me finish. So we still do that with the three of us today, when we're brainstorming or having a discussion, and one of us jumps in, we'll do that. Please. Let me finish. And so there are these things we can agree to do with each other to help prevent future problems from coming up. And of course, the key is both parties, or in this case, all three of us, you know, genuinely care about each other, and we don't want to have bad feelings happen by ignoring when somebody interrupts and just sitting there getting aggravated because they took over the conversation. So we just came up with ways that alert the other person, and then we take it, we don't take it personally. I think that's part of the issue that happens with feedback in either direction, but especially on the receiving end, if somebody says something to me, I can get irritated, like, What are you talking about? You know, you're not perfect, either or, and we we convey things with our tone of voice. So if we started saying to each other, please, let me finish. You know, there's that tone that conveys either sarcasm or impatience or some kind of judgment, as opposed to just commonly saying, Please, let me finish. So these little nuances, I think, are important in how we have this dynamic of giving feedback and receiving feedback.

Jeff Ma  
That makes sense. I guess I've been interrupting you, but I guess there's that third side of receiving feedback that we haven't covered yet. Can you touch on that? You

Meredith Bell  
know that, to me, is so important, because our natural tendency when somebody criticizes us, because most people don't have the skill of giving feedback really well, and so they're doing the best they can, but when we hear things that sound like judgments, then we tend to want to justify, explain, rationalize, give reasons for our behavior, and if we can learn to just put those reactions on pause and say and listen, Be curious, what is it this person is telling me and have us our first response? Thank you. I didn't realize that. Then that diffuses the other person, if, especially if they were speaking in an emotional way to us, right? Because sometimes people wait till they get really upset to give feedback, and then it's natural for the receiver to want to jump in and respond in kind. So if we can take responsibility for our response and remain calm no matter how that person is delivering it, and listen for the gold, I like to you know, think of feedback as a gift. Somebody is giving me information I didn't know. So I don't have to evaluate, do I agree? Agree disagree? I don't have to feel judged. Have information, and then I can ask follow up questions about anything specific that may need clarification for me, and if we really said something, you know, hurtful to someone, or, let's say, we got feedback about ignoring this person in a meeting and never giving them a chance to speak up. And they gave us feedback about that and said, You never you know, recognize me when I raised my hand and I I felt ignored. And to be willing to thank them for the feedback and apologize too often. I don't care what your position is, too often we feel apologies are a sign of weakness, and in fact, they're a sign of strength. And if we would be willing to acknowledge that people already know we're not perfect. You know, they know we have flaws, and so if we are willing to acknowledge it, instead of defend it, ignore it, deny it, then we have the opportunity to build a stronger relationship. Because they feel heard, they feel felt, they feel connected to us. And in fact, a real power move is to also ask, What can I do to make it right? If there were something done where the person really felt wounded or, you know, betrayed or whatever, offended in whatever way, what can I do to make it right? Mm. Yeah, and that goes a long way to mending whatever damage was done.

Jeff Ma  
I love that that last bit here was chock full of really, really nice tips there. I love the I love the the listen, be curious, and appreciate or thank them for their feedback, because those that's those are some tangible steps that I think, when I'm in my feelings, would be helpful to kind of take a step back and remember, because I definitely I get a reaction when I'm getting some tough feedback. I'm already thinking of every excuse I can make. It's

Meredith Bell  
natural to do that, you know, we hate to feel like we're wrong, you know, or or we've been bad. You know, there's the shame, there's all these negatives that we associate with if somebody gives me feedback, I've done something wrong, and guilt. You know, there's all these stuff, this stuff from the past that can come up. But in addition to that moment or moments of feedback, it's also important to follow up with the person if they addressed a behavior, let's say something in a meeting where they've been ignored, you can even ask for their help after you apologize and say, I would really like to change that. That's not my intent. I want to be more inclusive. So please point it out to me. If you see me, do it again. Now you're giving them permission to come to you again. Imagine if they said, if they gave you that feedback and your response was, No, I don't. I don't do that. Oh, I may have done it in this meeting, but I don't usually do that. And so you're shutting them down. You're you're not opening the door to any further conversations. And in fact, what happens when people witness you doing that is you're going to be missing out on information in the future that you ought to know, but people aren't going to tell you, because it's not worth it to them, the emotional cost is too high.

Jeff Ma  
Well, that brings me to my kind of last kind of curiosity around all this, is that, especially in my line of work, I come across. The best way to put it is just people with like, we all have this problem, but people with extremely like, huge blind spots in terms of self awareness, people who really could use a lot of feedback. But the reality is, is that they either never get it and don't recognize that as a problem, or they get what they feel is like positive feedback. They're like, you know, everyone they ask is like, yeah, you're great. But it may be coming from a place of power or position or just fear or lack of, you know, genuineity, like, you know. So how do we I guess I wanted to kind of pick your brain around like that, that that challenge where feedback isn't flowing at all, because you've given some great tips, but they all kind of require both people to kind of show up. Someone had to have the courage there, yes, to start, that's right, but I feel like there's a whole world of feedback that people need or people haven't tapped into, like you said, it's a gift, and they're missing out on it. But I think I sense that they're stuck because they're they don't realize they're missing it. They're unwilling to ask for it. Others are definitely unwilling to give it because of fear or whatever reason. Like, how do we overcome this unique challenge I've laid out for

Meredith Bell  
you? Know Before I address that, I love what you just said about asking for it, because that's something I didn't mention on the receiving feedback side, if we can be proactive and just approach people and ask, you know, I'm really interested in growing, developing, expanding, and I would love to know one thing you would love to see me do differently or better that will help us all work together more effectively, and they don't have to answer it on The spot. You know, some people want time to think about it, but that asking of what could I do differently or better, sets the stage for an open dialog. So that's just another tip that I would say on on this whole receiving feedback, don't wait for somebody to come to you, but seek it out, because that's a way to really grow and expand and open the door for psychological safety, because people realize, oh, this person really does want to know. Because, of course, once they share whatever it is with you, you go through the Yes, thank you, and I appreciate. Appreciate it, and you make a commitment about whether or not you're going to work on that. So I think that's important. So for someone, it sounds like you're describing someone who is in a position of authority or not. Might be somebody on a team.

Jeff Ma  
I'd say very often they're in authority, right? The leader of some sort. And like I said, I've seen it in two ways. One is just complete kind of assumption, or self awareness. Their self awareness is that they are, you know, great, doing great, no complaints. Everything's good and an alternative. I've also seen leaders who are trying to solicit like you said, they'll go and say, Hey, I need feedback from you. Like, tell me, give me one thing that I'm that you'd like me to do better, and the response is just consistently, no, you're great. Everything's perfect. Everything's great. But, like, you know, nobody's perfect. So right? I'm of the belief that if you're getting, like, all hundreds across the board, you are. There's something there's something wrong, because that data can't be real or true. I guess for most, I won't say that maybe there is. There are perfect people out there, but just more likely than not, you're missing out on a relationship or vulnerability or psychological safety situation. 

Speaker 1  
You know, I think a key thing with someone who needs feedback, hasn't solicited it, and their behavior is causing problems for others, just thinking about what's a calm way that I can approach this person, maybe set up an appointment with them, and just Open the door and and and ask, have you you know, are you open to hearing some suggestions that might be helpful for you based on what I'm hearing from other people or what I've observed myself, there's a concern I have, or, however you want to frame it, that doesn't sound like an attack on them, because I think the key thing with approaching someone who has major blind spots is setting the stage so that they are able to hear you. And so what can I do to lower their defenses so they would be open, and just asking them, are you open to hearing some ideas about how I think things might be better, and you might not even address it you know specifically to them, as you know, an instance of their behavior. But what is it about the dynamic of what's happening in the team or in the organization that you might be able to address, that they would have an impact on. So I think looking for and also, are there some things you appreciate about them that you want to affirm in the same process and and the other thing, I would say is focus on one thing. Don't go in with a litany of things and think, Okay, on 123, and I want to, I want you to listen to these other things too. It's like overload. What's the most important one that you would want to address with them that's causing you the most angst and has having a negative impact on you and others that you've observed, that if that changed, it would make a big difference. Because I think being able to open the door and have them acknowledge, yeah, I'm willing to hear you if they say, No, I'm not. You know, you can't go too far, but you could say something like, that's too bad, because I have some information that I think could help you be more effective, and our whole team be more effective. So when you do feel you're open, I'd like to share that with you so we leave the door open and don't go, Oh, fine, you know, and figure they never will, because sometimes people just need time to think about it before they commit.

Jeff Ma  
Meredith, I have a lot of other questions for you, but I've received feedback in the past that after a certain point I should cut my podcast shorter so that people will stay and pay attention. So I'm going to utilize that feedback here and call this an episode. But I do appreciate everything you've shared. It's been amazing. I love your perspective. I think so much, so many usable nuggets of come advice and mindset shifting stuff that you shared today. So thank you so much for your time.

Meredith Bell  
Thank you for having me

Jeff Ma  
absolutely and to our listeners as always, thank you so much. I always have to plug love as a business strategy. My favorite book, not because I'm an author, but it's such a good book, you know, not biased at all. But also, make sure to check out Meredith and what she's doing at grow strong leaders. Check out the podcast. Strong leaders podcast, check out the books. Connect with your team. Peer Coaching made simple. I'll leave notes for those in the show, so you guys should be able to see that. But with that, everyone, hopefully is out there staying safe, having a great week. We'll see see all of you soon. You

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