Frank Danna
Hey folks, it's Frank, not Jeff. This week, I'm very excited to introduce you to Katie McLaughlin. Now Katie has a very unique approach to training. She's seen a lot of toxic and inappropriate things happen when she's worked in the corporate world. And she's taken her drama and acting background and infused it into a very unique approach to building empathy and emotional intelligence within leaders. I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. Enjoy.

Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business and we're here to have conversations and hear stories about how real people and real businesses operate. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. Just kidding. I'm Frank Danna, and my co host today is the one and only Maggie McClurkin. Hello, Maggie, how are you today?

Maggie McClurkin
Hello, doing well. How are you, Frank?

Frank Danna
Thank you. I'm doing great. I'm glad we had that friendly banter. That was excellent. Let's continue. So I'm excited to talk with our guest today alongside Maggie. And much like us, Katie McLaughlin, is a passionate about creating a better world through happier workplaces and teams, which we can all get behind. But she comes at it from a completely different and totally unique angle. So we had to have her on this podcast. Katie, how are you doing today?

Katie McLaughlin
I'm doing great. I'm so excited to be here.

Frank Danna
Amazing. So rather than relying on traditional training and coaching, Katie has created something called the McLaughlin method to put an end to boring training. I'm excited to dive into everything. Welcome to the show. But before we get started, we typically have an icebreaker question. And this time, I'm going to change it up a little bit. So Maggie doesn't know the icebreaker but I do. And here it is. In the past week, what has been your favorite meal?

Katie McLaughlin
You're asking me seven days, seven days.

Frank Danna
Let's start with Katie. Okay, I'm gonna give you some time, Maggie.

Katie McLaughlin
So I would have to say that the past seven days. My partner made us a Valentine's Day meal, cooked lamb steaks, roasted brussel sprouts, roasted asparagus. Some roasted sweet potato. It was delicious.

Frank Danna
That sounds amazing.What's happened you over?

Thank you so much. That'd be fantastic. I'd love to do I'm serious. Where do you live? What area? What region?

Katie McLaughlin
Seattle

Frank Danna
Oh, good. Okay, Seattle. Great. Now we can talk addresses later. Maggie. Maggie, you're like, This is an odd start to this conversation. Maggie, what about you?

Maggie McClurkin
Um, so I went to this restaurant that's not super new, but new to me, called Rosie Cannonball in Houston. And I had this pasta dish that they set on fire on the side of your table. Because it's got like vodka in it is one of the Panella vodka. And they pour vodka on it and and set it on fire. And it was it was so good.

Frank Danna
What's amazing, this is I haven't had lunch yet. So this is really, really good. Katie, I want to start with you because I want to, I want to start at the before we get to your method. I want to talk about why the method was created in the first place. So can you give us a little backstory as to what was the impetus for moving in this direction? Then we can start getting into the the unique approach that you take?

Katie McLaughlin
Yeah, so before I was a business owner, I was an employee, like many of us, and you know, working in businesses, and I got my career start in nonprofits, and I'm an artist, I'm a theatre artist, dancer, general creative. And you know, so for me, I'm always very driven by passion by meaning. And when I transferred into the for profit world, from you know, nonprofits where you're really focused on all that meaning and purpose. I had to try to figure out where is that for me in the workplace. And I realized that part of that could be through my, the career that I kind of created for myself in learning and development and coaching leaders and individuals on you know, performing to their best. And so that was great. But I also realized that I wanted to work with companies that were trying to be intentional about the culture they were creating, they really cared about their people. And so I was really gravitating towards, like the startup and tech field, because that's kind of a big selling point for a lot of startup and tech companies. And what I found was that they weren't always like they were saying the right thing. but their actions didn't always follow through, that there were leaders who could be the most inspiring, have the best ideas, but then they could also be kind of tearing you down in different conversations. And it was like their attempt to try to motivate you to do better. But in reality, you just felt like crap. So I dealt with a number of these leaders, I worked at a number of different companies and found that it was kind of all the same. And realize, we're kind of missing something here in terms of what we know we need to do for as a leader, and how to relate to people in the workplace and the actual follow through like, we're kind of just not treating people like humans a lot of the time. So that was really my my impetus was like, we need to do something different.

Frank Danna
So can you Why do you think that is? Why do you think that there is that gap between? It's, maybe we could call it a self awareness gap, but also we could talk about, why do you think there's a gap between the intentions people have, and the behaviors that come out as a result of those intentions?

Katie McLaughlin
I think the biggest piece is around whether we've had any training or coaching that is different than that. So most of our training as leaders actually doesn't happen or happens by what's been modeled for us. And so when we're responding, we're like, kind of learning through experience learning through seeing other leaders and how they treat us how they treat other people that report to them other people in the company. That's what sticks. So we say, Oh, well, this person's still the CEO of this company, and they act like this, they have all this power. So why wouldn't I emulate that behavior, because that's got somehow got them the result of being in power and having, you know, all this control and money. And so, unfortunately, by having a lot of bad actors as role models, that then has trickled down into, you know, any any of us who haven't had any actual training and leadership or communication or empathy. Now, we have to kind of either build that skill set by ourselves, or just emulate what we're seeing around us.

Frank Danna
Have you noticed any situations where leaders have seen the need to break out of that cycle of bad behavior of misbehavior, trying to get to the place of power, and that backfiring on them? Because the culture of the organization wasn't prepared for that, or didn't jive with that? What are some of those examples that you've seen of, of leaders kind of waking up to that realization, and trying to make a positive impact, and maybe failing or making a positive impact in changing the landscape?

Katie McLaughlin
I didn't, most of my experiences have been the unsuccessful versions, where, you know, many leaders have have realized, hey, wait a minute, this isn't how, how, what I kind of signed up for, right, and they kind of realized that the the culture around them is like two faced, and they can either continue to be two faced, because that's kind of what their leader is expecting of them, they're still their leader is still kind of pushing and putting pressure on them. And so you kind of get stuck, I've actually experienced this myself as a leader, where I felt sometimes stuck, where my leader was expecting my team to perform more. And so I had to figure out how to motivate them to perform. And some of these softer strategies around motivation take time to actually, like see an increase in productivity, whereas the, the notion of fear or micromanaging or as a leader, I'll just do it myself. Right? That it kind of becomes this like, weird cycle where, okay, I don't want to micromanage these people, I want to give them the ability to mature and perform and, you know, change on their own. But the work still has to get done, because person who pays my paycheck is breathing down my neck. So that means right, I take on the burden as a leader, and then I burn out and then I leave.

Frank Danna
This is fantastic. Like I so a couple thoughts really quickly. Katie, you're killing it. Absolutely. We're in. I mean, okay, so the insights are fantastic. So I feel like a lot of leaders and managers and people that are working for them, or under them in any capacity experience this, right? And so what you're talking about the culture of the environment is nothing more than the behaviors that each of us are willing to tolerate. And so there's a saying by Peter Drucker right culture eats strategy for breakfast, but we we have a slightly different saying, behaviors eat culture for lunch, because foundationally if a behavior is is what creates a culture and an environment where people can either thrive or be pushed away from the toxicity, then behaviors become the culture. And as a result of that, that's actually far more important than just focusing on the culture itself. Right. And so what you're, you're talking about is this insane long term impact of toxicity that ultimately gets people nowhere. The outcomes actually aren't as valuable as they, as the leadership thinks they are.

Katie McLaughlin
Absolutely. And, like, I just kind of got goosebumps while you were describing all of that, because I say that in a different in a slightly different way, where I say that culture is in between, we just like, Yeah, well, and we often think that culture is those like, big, you know, those big moments in time where it's like, oh, a team meeting, or a event, like a, you know, a morale event that we're doing. But our actual experience of culture is, in all these tiny moments, it's when somebody gives you feedback, completely off the cuff, and they've had a shitty day. And they, you know, they're yelling at you. But like that, it's that moment that we say, Oh, God, that was really toxic. That doesn't feel good. So now I'm going to go and complain to somebody else. And it's this whole, like, trickle down effect.

Frank Danna
Yeah, it's, it's interesting. So when when we talk about culture, most of the time, people think about perks or benefits or extras at work, right? Like, especially from HR and managing and recruiting side, they're like, listen, we have goat yoga, we've got a cheese bar on Thursdays, and none of that matters. And, and, and ultimately, what ends up happening is people are, as we've experienced, as we've seen, sort of like, locked in to a relationship with a company because they really need good health insurance, right, and they're willing to be subjected to this type of culture, or this type of situation, even though in reality, it's, it's, you know, they're not actually able to live their full selves, or bring their best life to the conversation. So culture is nothing more than how we behave. And like you said, it happens in every interaction, and those interactions, they spread, and they set the tone for others. So the way we build better behavior or better culture is day by day, action, by action, we build those opportunities to either tear, tear each other down or build each other up. Right. And that I'm we're on the same page here. This is this is really, really good. And the reason why I brought up the force is because it's real culture is in between all of these things. It is not a big moment, it is it's all of it. It's kind of meshed in, it's hard to see, but it's very easy to feel. So you going through this experience with your background, as a general creative as someone who's an actor, I like to say an actor, you know, and say, I can't do that very well, but I'm trying my best. How did you get the idea for weaving these, this? This sort of mission for making leadership training better? And this passion for acting and drama? How did those things come together? And what is this method that we've heard about?

Katie McLaughlin
Yeah, so this came together? Partially just as a, how am I doing this differently? How am I creating a different sense within my own team, the way that I relate to people, and kind of realizing that a lot of the tools that I learned in my actor study by doing theater and you know, working together as a team, and as an ensemble, the nature actually of an ensemble in the theater is actually a really good model for teamwork. But we don't have that same level of commitment to team like we do in a theater ensemble, where, you know, in that theater ensemble, you recognize that the whole is more important than the individual parts. And so, all of these kinds of lessons around, how do we interact with each with people? And what are the ways that I have learned to relate to each up to individuals, that's kind of where the kernels of this started. But then, so the other piece of this is my use of theater as a way to teach empathy, emotional intelligence, and to break open some areas where we're not really able to communicate because we don't have language or precedent for how we can communicate safely in the workplace, about our emotions and about our real experience. So by using theatre as my primary vehicle for connecting in workshops, and in my programming, it provides us a objective kind of third, third party almost version of some of the real world situations that we're experiencing in our day to day, and we can then start to comment and give real feedback about what's actually happening. In our reactions to a circumstance, based on this, you know, kind of made up scenario or made up image, a lot of the work I do is very heavy in using your body to create different images. And that is our source of discussion, then it's not like, Hey, you hurt me the other day, when you said such and such, that's not something that any of us feel really comfortable doing. So by using this objective, this objective representation really helps people to be able to open up and be honest about what's going on.

Maggie McClurkin
That's so cool. I'm a former theater kid. So you are speaking my language. I am really interested to know just from a more practical side, like start to finish, like what what is one of those journeys look like you don't like you don't want to get into too much detail if you don't feel comfortable with like people's details, but I would love to just hear a story about like, what problem you saw what, what you implemented, and then the result at the end?

Katie McLaughlin
Yeah, so some of my workshops are, you know, group workshops with folks that come from all backgrounds. And so we're often looking at a particular theme. And in one of these workshops, we were looking at, we wanted to try to uncover some more of our biases and assumptions that we make about people in the workplace based off of their gender, their race, you know, their age, or tenure at the company, any of those kinds of things. And, through the course of this workshop, we got to this really beautiful conversation about our expectation of what it means for someone to show up and be engaged or productive in a team meeting. And so the kernel of that conversation was, as a small group, they used their bodies, you know, their arms, their facial expression, this was a, an in person example. And they created an or recreated a typical team meeting, or each person stepped into to create this image. And they're held different body positions, you know, some one person was kind of like, leaning forward look like they might be taking notes, another person was like, relaxed and clearly like, on their phone, you know, those kinds of different images that we might expect to see in a team meeting. And where this became powerful was, we then started to change out the players. So they kept the same images, we put different people into those different images. And then we asked what story or what thoughts come up for you as now that we see this person in in this position versus another person. And it helped us to, like really identify some of those thought patterns around? Well, is there a expectation that the woman who is taking notes is actually, you know, a secretary, is there an expectation that when, you know, a man is leaning backwards, that he actually is engaged versus a woman or, you know, things like that? And so even just having that conversation, having the opportunity to articulate and see some of our biases towards what productivity looks like, what does engagement look like? There were all these beautiful aha moments on people's faces that they could then take back into their interactions with their team members at their workplaces.

Maggie McClurkin
So it's basically like forced empathy, like making someone literally sit in someone else's position in a meeting and kind of see, see the situation from their point of view, and therefore, seeing all of the the biases that they might have sitting on the other side of the table.

Katie McLaughlin
Yeah, you know, and I like to refer to it like, it's like empathy on purpose, right? Like, we're trying to fast track our empathy skills. And so frequently, when we hear us talk about empathy, or emotional intelligence in the workplace, a lot of it does relate to talk of, you know, do you actually relate to this topic that somebody else is experiencing? And, you know, can you walk in their shoes, but how do you do that, right? And if you haven't ever had that life experience. So, it this gives people an opportunity to step into feel kind of where tension is in your body feel where, you know, other emotions that might come up for you based on that physical body position. And then you can start to relate and empathize that much faster because you've now had an experience that is similar to theirs.

Maggie McClurkin
This is a little off topic, but I'm wondering if you've watched the show station 11 on HBO Max, okay, well, you should watch it. But it's very good. It's very, very artistic and the way that it's portrayed, it's beautiful. And it's very deep storytelling, but it's not like your run of the mill, like, murder happens. We figure out the, the culprit, it's, it's, it's very, like, complex. But one of the main themes in it is they are using theater and performing the same play of Hamlet, over and over and over again, switching out characters, and, and switching out even the theme like sometimes they do a 90s, grunge theme of Hamlet, or like a very traditional version of Hamlet. And they, they use that in order to kind of understand their own feelings and perspectives of others. It's really fascinating. And it reminded me of this conversation you so you should we should watch it.

Frank Danna
Yeah, no, that sounds amazing. Yeah, I wrote that down, too. Thank you. Um, I was gonna ask you, you mentioned something about the in person experience. I'm wondering, how has your approach to this type of experience in these types of experiential, dramatic kind of learning and teaching environments changed virtually? How have you been able to adapt to virtual and what have you seen, in terms of nuance or difference there?

Katie McLaughlin
Yeah, so with a virtual experience of this, you know, frequently, part of what we're also doing in an experience like this with my clients is we are having to break out of this kind of new fourth wall that we have, as this is my little box that you can see when I'm in my video. And so one of the big things that I play with really early on is, you know, what, if you got really close to the camera, and then got really far away from the camera, and, you know, if you like, raise your hands in the air, how often do we actually like, raise our hands in the air, when we're sitting down, you know, at a zoom call, just to get people to start to like, loosen up a little bit. That's kind of one of the first things because usually, part of the reason to do this kind of work and, and to bring this into meetings, or conversations or workshops that I that I host, it's, it's about breaking out of the expectations of how you're supposed to be when you're at work, or how you're supposed to be when you're on a zoom call, because that's supposed to be lens is keeping us from actually really honoring the truth of our experience as an individual in the workplace, we have to kind of put on a brave face, a lot of the times with our colleagues with our manager, even if something terrible and devastating is happening. And so part of my work is is really about helping people to, you know, expand their perception of how they, they are even experiencing their day to day. The other piece that I'll say with with this is that it becomes much harder to create some of these pictures of a typical team meeting or a particular interaction, that kind of relationship is more difficult to create online. And, but we can unpack our individual relationships or responses to individual stimuli. So frequently, what I'll do is I'll ask people to create a whole group of folks to create an image of what they think an engaged employee is. And it's fast, and we all do it at the same time, we can kind of freeze and take a look at like all the different similarities and differences with the different images people create. And then we can see, collectively, what are some assumptions that we make around? What does it mean for you to look engaged physically, it on a zoom call? versus, you know, what does it mean for someone to be disengaged, distracted, you know, not paying attention. And so what it what it does is it gives us opportunities to, like unpack kind of this virtual experience, while also gathering people from a wide a wide range of backgrounds and experiences that you know, wouldn't be able to come in person to a workshop here in Seattle.

Frank Danna
That's amazing. I wanted to ask about, you know, the steps we can we can and should be taking as individuals working at companies to heal, you know, are one of the words that we like to use a lot is forgiveness, which is not often used inside of an organization inside of business. Typically you don't hear about unforgiveness and forgiveness and what that does to us. But I'm wondering, from your perspective, you know, notice that healing is a big part and I'm wondering, what are your thoughts around the process and the approach that you can help introduce to help people start on that path towards healing.

Katie McLaughlin
So, this healing component with any person, whether you're a leader or not a leader, you have to start with yourself. And so in any of the work that I'm doing with leaders, you know, my endgame is to try to heal a workplace. But I can only do that in the hearts and minds of individuals. And so I always get leaders to start with themselves first, and get more in touch with how are you actually feeling in the workplace. And it's not just how are you feeling in this moment in this workplace conversation, but it's starting to form awareness of all of the things that you bring with you into that conversation. Now that we're, most people are working remotely where they weren't before it is. Now we have all this, like external baggage that is right outside the door, right. And that package comes into the room with you, either physically or emotionally and mentally, that strain is there. And it can also include things like other big life, circumstances, and all of that how that comes into play, that's going to impact the way that you interact with others, whether you like it or not. And so being a better leader, a leader who leads with love, what I call a deliberate leader, involves being intentional and aware of what what you're bringing into a conversation and are you actually genuinely reacting to the moment and the person in front of you? Or is your reaction mostly made up of other things that have nothing to do with this person in front of you?

Frank Danna
And and I think, to piggyback on that, how vulnerable are we in the moment to be able to express that issue, right, because most often, what happens is, the leader is going through something dealing with something, and they're unwilling to present that they're struggling with something outside of these, this little box that I'm in right now, I'm going to look, you're going to look at me, if I'm the leader in the room and say, he's mad at me, there must be something that I've done, or am I'm looking at Katie and saying, oh my gosh, she's clearly upset because of the work that I did. And leaders are unwilling to communicate the struggles that they're going through, because they're worried about being seen as less than or as soft, you're ending up creating an environment where you can't really be honest with each other. And there's not an opportunity to be honest, you end up just being nice, right? And that actually doesn't really add any value.

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah, and I'm finding, especially in this remote environment that a lot of companies are dealing with, it's a lot harder to like, check that baggage at the door, because you don't have a door, and you don't leave your house and all of the problems that you have at home, or maybe right next to you right behind you as you're sitting on this zoom call. And so yeah, it's just such an interesting, interesting time work right now.

Katie McLaughlin
And I think that something that you were saying, Frank, about this is that embedded in those relationships with like a leader, and a person that they lead is a power structure, there's where there's a sense of this person who leads you is has more power than you do. And we don't talk about these kinds of things, really. So that's why I like to start to bring that up. Because when those power dynamics come into play it, it builds part of that barrier. And you described it when you were talking about how like, Oh, I've got to maintain as a leader, this sense of, you know, security, or this sense of like groundedness, and evenness, I must maintain that this whole time. Right. And that means that gives us like a fake a fake wall as a leader. And then as individuals, there's also this barrier of like, well, this person maybe controls my pay controls my opportunity at work. And so can I have an honest, vulnerable conversation with them about some of the things that are coming up and causing me challenges at work? Doesn't always feel safe.

Frank Danna
No, definitely not. psychological safety is is definitely broken. When power dynamics you used it to take advantage. Right. And that's, that's definitely something that I think a lot of leaders forget the legitimate power that a title comes that a title brings along with it. And they just assume that they're, they're a person to Why don't you treat me the same way. And in reality, if this person is signing your paychecks, unless that leader is willing to take the stand first and showcase that vulnerability first, they're not going to invite people and enter give them a chance to enter in to be that person who can also say that as well. It does, ultimately come down to the leader's ability to showcase it and say like we talked about the very beginning, I'm choosing to behave this way. So you can emulate that behavior.

Katie McLaughlin
And I would also say that it doesn't take just one time. Hmm, that's right. It's not just one expression of vulnerability, or of realness, that has to be repeated. And we have to build new habits and new skill sets that we are able to repeat over time. And so kind of getting us back to like what I was saying before about my work, my first action is to help people interrupt that automatic habitual response. And then we can start to create those new habits, we can be intentional, what are those habits I want to be creating? What is the culture I want to be creating during those in between moments, those different behaviors?

Frank Danna
It's amazing. I'm wanting I'm wanting to, we could probably talk about this forever. Like, honestly, we're so we're so aligned, and so connected on so many things. And this is really, really cool. Maggie, I'm wondering if you have any additional questions or thoughts before we before we close?

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah, I'm just one more thing I just want to know, like, what has been your most your proudest success story that you've seen thus far in your in your career?

Katie McLaughlin
Yeah, you know, I think my proudest success story happened in with a one on one client. So normally, I've done a lot of this work in groups. And, you know, honestly, the pandemic in our virtual world has allowed me to experiment with different things like using this work one on one. And those one on one aha moments when a leader is like help, I want to be more intentional. And this particular leader said, I know I go into these conversations where I am trying to, you know, share an update with my team. And it just like goes flat, and then all of a sudden, like, goes in a direction I'm not expecting and then I kind of get condescending, and all these things happen. And he's like, I just don't know what's going on. And so by us taking the moment to really map out that conversation, figuring out what's happening on both sides of the conversation, he realized that he was in this, he had gone into this conversation, first and foremost, not setting the right expectations. So the people who are coming into the conversation had a different set of expectations, and they never got on the same page. And that was where the conflict came from. And his other big aha moment was the realization that he has been in the exact shoes that they've been in, in other scenarios. Well, and so it was this like, really great empathy moment on both sides.

Frank Danna
That's amazing self awareness. I have one final question for you, actually. So I think I think this this may be helpful for some of the leaders out there. How do you present this approach to leaders that want a quick fix that may have even for being totally honest, rolled their eyes when they hear this takes a long time to do? Right? What What how do you how do you communicate this approach, this dynamic, unique approach that you are offering to teams and organizations? To people that may be a little bit more skeptical?

Katie McLaughlin
Well, I mean, first and foremost, I typically am going to work with leaders who actually want to make a change. And they've already identified that their old training or their old leadership training, or you know, webinars, or whatever content they're consuming about leadership hasn't met the hasn't met the mark, they don't feel more confident when they go in and have a conversation with their team members. They don't feel more confident that they'll know how to meet their productivity goals or performance goals for their team. And so usually, they feel a little exasperated and so they're like, hey, I want something new, I want to try something different. And you know, the results that I was describing in that one on one that was a single session. And so what I found is that if I can get people in for a single session, a single workshop, they realize, Oh, I got huge aha moments right now. So that now how much more could we get if we work together for a longer period of time?

Frank Danna
I love it. I love it. So the folks that you're mostly working with are individuals that are starting their sort of behavior change journey, they're starting into that introspective self awareness journey. And that's really where you're able to say, Okay, if you're, if you're committed, let's invest in it. Right. So, okay, Katie, I want to ask you share a little bit more about what you're doing right now where people can find you. Because I think people are really going to want to know about how to engage with you and and, and even sign up to fly to Seattle. That would be awesome.

Katie McLaughlin
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm really hoping that in 2022, I will be getting back to doing some in person workshops. Let's go open to Let's go. I'm telling stay tuned. But um, You know, the best way to find me is at my website and McLaughlinmethod.com. And I'm also on LinkedIn, I'm posting, you know, content there for everyone. I've got a blog. And then I you know, I love being a guest on different podcasts. So I've started to collate those on my website so you can see other kinds of kinds of conversations that I've been having with different hosts.

Frank Danna
Amazing, Katie, thank you so much for your time today for our conversation about drama about theater about empathy, emotional intelligence. And, and really what it means to to change the way training and experiences are done in the workplace to actually get to real results. Maggie, thank you for for being our co host as well. It's been a lot of fun. Happy to be here. Thanks. Absolutely. Yeah. So as always, thank you to our listeners, please be sure to check out our book. It's available on Amazon and everywhere else that you might find books. It's also called Love as a Business Strategy. And here at Love as a Business Strategy. We're posting new episodes every week. Is there a topic of business topic you'd like for us to cover? Let us know at loveasabusiness strategy.com Reach out to us and if you liked what you heard today, please do leave us a five star review subscribe on Apple Spotify, all the places. And if you know someone who might enjoy this content, please don't forget to share the love as a business strategy. Unintended. Katie, again, thank you so much for your time, Maggie, thank you again for cohosting with me. It's been a blast. We appreciate everybody listening. Have a great day.