Maria Morukian  
If the the explicit messages, we want to create a place where everybody has a seat at the table, oftentimes the underlying message the implicit message is, this is still our place, our place being the place that feels comfortable and natural and familiar. For the people who have historically been on the receiving end of a lot of societal advantages right the table was made the room that the tables in the seats that the table is surrounded by, were created for a specific group of people.

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host. And as always, I'm here to have a conversation with real people about real businesses in real life. And today, I'm joined by Maria Maruchan, and she is a recognized Organizational Development Practitioner specializes in training coaching and facilitation with a focus on diversity, equity, inclusion and intercultural competence. Maria is the president of MSM, global consulting and an adjunct faculty member at American University's School of International Service. She previously served in leadership and organizational development positions at the US Office of Personnel Management's Federal Executive Institute and the US Department of State and she has also served in leadership positions at management concepts in the national multicultural Institute. Over the last two decades, Maria has trained and coached 1000s of individuals around the world to build practices for better communication, foster competent and respectful workplaces and navigate conflict for meaningful culture change just why she's here today. And she has worked with such diverse clients as PBS distribution, the National Park Service, National Institutes of Health, the World Bank in the Association for animal welfare advancement. She is a sought after speaker and has presented at numerous events including TEDx, the former workplace inclusion, the Association for Talent Development, blacks and government and elevate Women's Network. And our work has been published in places like Forbes and TD magazine. She's the author of diversity, equity inclusion for trainers, fostering dei in the workplace and has contributed chapters to 80Ds Handbook for training and talent development, and the upcoming building an organizational coaching culture. She happens to be the host of another podcast culture stew, which focuses on the multi dimensionality of identity and best practices in diversity, equity and inclusion. And that was a long introduction. But that's because everything on there is important. So I want I want to welcome Maria, on to the show. Thank you for joining us here. 

Maria Morukian  
Thank you so much, Jeff. I'm so happy to be here.

Jeff Ma  
I was just telling, I was telling you before we started recording, I was like, I tried to make this shorter. But this is some amazing stuff that you've done in your career. And it's all it's all kind of leading up to like the topic that we want to talk about today. And so if you don't mind leading us off. In addition to all the things that you've done here, can you kind of talk about your journey, really, from a passion standpoint, like what are you passionate about? And what brought you to that point?

Maria Morukian  
Yes, absolutely. I love that question. So I think probably the origin story goes back to my childhood, I was born and raised in the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan, in what was a predominantly white, middle class, Christian upbringing, a lot of people having very similar looks and accents and experiences, values and beliefs. And I identify as white I grew up as a Christian I and yet there was always this sort of undercurrent of difference that maybe I wasn't quite as aware of explicitly when I was a child. But I knew that my family was a little bit different than all of the other families and I think part of that was related to my I grew up in a multicultural, multilingual family, my, my family were immigrants, refugees, my father. His family came over from Istanbul, Turkey, in the 1920s because of the Armenian Genocide, and they actually landed in Cuba. So my father was born and raised in Cuba, and had this very interesting sort of multicultural multilingual childhood and then came to the United States with his mother and sisters and started all over again. And so and then met my mother who grew up in this tiny little village in northern Michigan, where everybody spoke Polish. So it was an interesting upbringing for me seeing these two cultures meshed together, and also try to navigate the the culture, the broader cultural around them. And so I think that what was very prevalent in my childhood, and something that I've always been really focused on and passionate about is the importance of storytelling, and maintaining our stories, and passing them along to others, not only to maintain the culture, and that caught that strong sense of cultural identity and, and sort of our heritage, but also to humanize ourselves to one another. And that has been something that's been really deeply entwined in not only my personal life, but my academic work. And ultimately, my my career is that focus on how do we humanize our organizations, which of course, drew me to your podcast, but using the power of story, using the power of connecting with people, and being able to not only find community and sometimes similarities, but also to celebrate what makes us unique and different, in different in a way that we don't necessarily always experience if we're just reading about a group of people in a book.

Jeff Ma  
Amazing, I love that. I, I wonder you got me thinking about stories. And I feel like the story of the world right now is that in an interesting point, I think it's at a plot changing moment, at least the way I see it in the story of humanity, if you will, in terms of, I guess, obviously, there was the pandemic, but then on the on the heels of that we have a lot of different movements and changes in the way that we see work and each other in lives, and D AI and all these other topics. Where, where do you how do you see that story playing? I'm curious if this is this something brand new? Is this something that's like, come out of nowhere? Is it something that's just being revealed? And it's always been there? Like, what is our story right now?

Maria Morukian  
Yeah, I think that storytelling metaphor lends itself so well to exploring where we are at this time in history. Because when we think about stories, so often, the stories that resonate with us, are ones that have been told in various shapes and forms for millennia. Right? The stories of humanity don't necessarily change at their core. But perhaps the, the, the forces around or the situations or the circumstances change. But a lot of times this, these stories keep recurring. And I think that that's very true when it comes to where we are societally. When we look at some of these cultural, political, economic, social forces that are exacerbating this polarization that we have, as well as just a lot of the the ongoing economic inequalities and divides that exist, this isn't the first time in history that we've experienced this. In fact, it's often something that is, you know, it's either a constant in our human civilization, or, you know, a lot of these situations tend to be cyclical. That being said, I do think that there's a different flavor, this time around to the story. And what we are seeing right now, and what I am putting a lot of my energy and attention around is this, this experience of dramatic, pernicious polarization, where our identities have become so deeply intertwined with our political ideologies, as a society, that it's hard for us to parse that out. And the more that we get pulled into that, and the more that we become entrenched in our echo chambers, the harder it is for us to listen to people who see the world or experience the world differently, much less challenge our own perspectives and perceptions of what's true and what's right. And what feels different in the flavor, I think is, you know, again, this polarization isn't new, but the way it's manifesting through on social media, and just the the rapid rate at which not only disinformation spreads, but also how easy it is for us to get pulled into those echo chambers and just surround ourselves by messages that only reinforce what we already believe. I think that is something that is really making this particular point in time, so much more challenging for us to find ways to de escalate that polarization.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, I agree. And one of the reasons that myself and my co authors went about, like developing and working on love specifically using the word love in our approach is that we do believe that that's the universal language in terms of what we can surround ourselves with and connect with. And yet, it's such an interesting, like, the, the picture you painted is absolutely right. It's a world where it seems like if we want to even get to love, there's a barrier to even want to be in the same room. There's people that you would almost like have never met. And just you can hear one or two things about you want nothing to do with in this polarized state that we live in. So there's this distinct lack of connection and conversation that's being had. And I was wondering if you can, kind of looking at that problem, which I know you you've been looking at, can you share? I don't want to jump to what's the solution. But maybe you could talk a little bit about this, this lack of connection, how we break through a little bit more so that we can get to love because that's what I'm dealing with right now. Like, I want to love but we can't even come to the table.

Maria Morukian  
Oh, yeah. Gosh, I would love to say that. I figured that all out. You know? Well, and I think that the answers do exist, first and foremost, right? We know. And there is a deep amount of research that indicates what it takes for us to humanize ourselves to one another to build connections across our ideological differences to to build that sense of trust and community that breeds love. And in addition to that notion of storytelling, it's also it's it is Intergroup Dialogue, it's creating spaces where it feels safe, and encouraged for us to step forward toward one another. And that we know that our lived experiences will be listened to. I mean, I think primarily that's one of it's so simple, right? But it's the first piece of the puzzle, when I don't feel listened to, it's really hard for me to listen to anybody else, especially if if folks are already shutting me down and saying yes, but what you don't understand is right, that never leads to good dialogue. And so I think it's, you know, there's a mindset shift that has not been encouraged in our society, in our organizations, even for quite some time. And that is one of really leaning into deep curiosity. And simply saying, you know, at any given point in time, if I'm looking on somebody who either represents the quote unquote, other, or who even just has an opinion that is different from mine, rather than immediately shutting myself off and expecting I'm going to judge them, putting myself in a situation of saying, this person's view is valuable to me, and I'm going to learn something from them. And so I think that's that at the sort of intellectual level helps us to gain some ability to be more open and curious and start that empathy process. I think the other piece that is really missing, when it comes to that love piece is just connecting at the heart level. There is so much and we see this a lot in DEI work, so much intellectual deflection, right? We focus so much on trying to measure the validity of diverse diversity, equity and inclusion that we lose sight of the actual value of it. We lose sight of the the importance and the the, the, you know, the profound need for us to go beyond just celebrating differences, but really putting ourselves in a place where we value that I you know, each and every one of us is interdependent. with others, I don't have all of the answers, nor should I, I have to rely on the the multitude of other voices and perspectives and talents and skills that when we bring them together is going to give us a much better product, much better outcome, and a much more holistic and thriving organization, Team community. And so I think there's that mindset shift at the intellectual level, I'm going to get something valuable out of this. But it's also that heart piece that I cannot exist fully, unless I am seeing myself as interdependent with these other members of my, of my community.

Jeff Ma  
Wow. That makes a whole lot of sense. And I think it breaks it down so clearly. And so it can only lead me to be thinking, okay, intellectually. I think a lot of times, I wouldn't say this is, I wouldn't say this is easy at all. But in a sense, being logical, it can be explained and work through the other piece. The emotional piece is the part that I'm, I'm really curious about your approach, because it feels like this is the one where, regardless of how how much reasoning you're applying, and how much you want to even the desire, a lot of times, we have all the best intense even approaching the cyberspace. But then when it comes time to kind of build that bridge, it feels like we lose each other here. It feels like I love the way you said like, we just, we like you can't, you have to go beyond just celebrating. Because I feel like so much of DEI work kind of stops there. It's kind of like, Oh, here's like, here are all the things to appreciate about other cultures or other people and other perspectives. And then it's like, Let's all celebrate our diversity and like, great. And this is more meaningful, deeper connection that we're meant to have, and work through together. And this is that table I was talking about, like, I can't get people to join at this table. What what does that look like for you to solve?

Maria Morukian  
Hmm. So a couple of things. One is I think it's encouraging and pressing people in positions of authority, status power, to even question that notion of the table. We talk a lot in, in our DEI practice about the performative nature. And the superficial nature, sometimes of these DEI initiatives, especially if the under if the the explicit messages, we want to create a place where everybody has a seat at the table. Oftentimes, the underlying message, the implicit message is, this is still our place, our place being the place that feels comfortable, and natural and familiar. For the people who have historically been on the receiving end of a lot of societal advantages, right. The table was made the room that the tables in the seats that the table is surrounded by, were created for a specific group of people, and so challenging ourselves when we are in those positions of status and authority to question what, why do we need this table? Is this table going to work for everyone? Is this even should we even be in this room? Are these the right seats? We need to co design an environment where everybody has the has the voice to be able to say what's going to work for them and kind of throw out that idea of the table? What is so challenging about this DEI work, if we're truly going to dismantle that notion of the table that has historically only worked for a small number of people is it takes time. It takes a willingness to explore the truths of those automatic advantages that certain folks have gotten. And it takes a willingness to share and sometimes cede power. And that is, that is so challenging to do. And yet when when organizations and when leaders are when people in those positions of power, engage in that in that type of work. That's where we start to see real movement. That's where we start to see the value You have diversity, equity inclusion truly thrive. ,

Jeff Ma  
Wow love you basically like metaphorically and somehow literally flipping the table over. That was incredible. I love that that thought and I'm going to start using that I'm stealing that.

Maria Morukian  
I willingly give it to you.

Jeff Ma  
My question my I guess my follow up comes in the form of when I think of working with leaders, there are many categories. But the two that come to mind here are because you brought this up, you have the leader who is in the position of power, and cannot see a way of, as you said, ceding that power of basically giving it up, letting go of control, or seeing the other side of of what it looks like to give up some of that power. That's one very common persona. And then on the other side, you have the leader, who is completely unaware that there's anything to give up or they're there squarely at the table, and the table is their entire world in perspective. So I guess, kind of a two parter, but what do you do with these folks? What do these folks need? I know it's different. But that's what's burning in my head is like you said, we need to start with leaders, you said, leaders need the power. And the change really comes from leaders being able to actually step into this new space. And I'm kind of saying, well, these are the two kinds of leaders that I see having the biggest problem. Where do we start with with that?

Maria Morukian  
Oh, yeah. You know, I think everyone who's in a position of leadership authority, power is on on a journey, right. And there are such a variety of stages. And oftentimes, we, the further on we go in that journey, we look back at folks who haven't yet joined us with some impatience and, you know, judgment. I think it's recognizing that, you know, it takes time, and it's one step in front of the other. That being, and we can't necessarily, as much as we would love for people to leapfrog over some of those steps and join us really quickly. That's not necessarily realistic. So I think, although there there are, there are challenges with the notion of weeding people where they are, because sometimes that can lead to reinforcing some comfort for people who have always been comfortable. I do think that there's a value in bringing that mentality of I need to, I need to come and explore where you are, and why you're there. And what is it that you are hearing or not hearing that's causing you to stay where you are. So I'll give you a couple of examples of some some real life leaders who are in some of those positions that you mentioned. One example that I have seen in my work, and there are more than one leaders who sort of represent this mindset of being solidly situated at the table without wanting to budge. Often what I hear from them is when we're presenting even, you know, facts, right data to them, we conducted an assessment. Here's what your organization, your workforce is saying where they're experiencing pain, there is often a discounting or discrediting of that as not real data, but that's not the truth. And I think that is often you know, and then it's often followed by what's the real problem here? Because we're funked, we're a functioning organization, we're meeting our, you know, our targets. Yes, we could do better in terms of representation, but who couldn't write and and so I think that deflection, and discrediting of the those real life stories of people experiencing harm is problematic. But it also means that for whatever reason, those leaders have not yet fully, fully experienced the messaging and seeing that they are contributing to that damage. So it's very much like well, it's not my problem, everything seems to be fine. The way to, I think respond is to continue to reinforce to them that stories are data and to present to them the potential implications have continuing down that path, you can stay where you are at this table, and expect people to come and sit and assimilate to your expectations. But you're going to be, you're going to soon find yourself sitting alone, or with a bunch of people who look and sound and think the same way you do. And there and then just kind of presenting the the potential consequences to that. And then I think just the reinforcement of, of those messages of those stories of people experiencing harm and pain, not that we want to make people feel guilty, right. And we certainly don't want to re traumatize the folks who have been on the receiving end of pain, but to as a as a practitioner, for me to be the conduit, and to say, even if you only have one or two people who are experiencing these negative, you know, whether it's micro aggressions, whether it's discriminatory behavior, if they're experiencing that it's not just the experience of one person, because they have a circle, a social network, and how are they talking about the organization? And what sort of information and stories are they sharing about you, as a leader, so every single person actually represents more than one human being, because they're going out and sharing what their experiences have been like. So again, I think sometimes putting it into that perspective of the ripple effect can be helpful for those who are just really unwilling to budge. For folks who perhaps are a little bit further down the road, and are open but don't necessarily see themselves as the quote unquote, problem. I think it's shifting that notion of this isn't about problem, right? This is you are a part of a system all of us are, and this system is complex. And it has been. And it is, it's so deeply interwoven into all that we are and all that we do, that we're not aware of how it's impacting our decisions, and our behaviors and the experiences of all the people around us. And so rather than looking at this as this problem that needs to be solved by steps, 123, it's more about Are you willing, as a leader to you know, ceding power is not a loss, right? Actually, by sharing that power out, you ultimately create more opportunities, not only for a number of people who have not been given those opportunities before, but you actually help to lift up everybody's opportunities. And so a couple of examples that come to mind that often will resonate. There's research that the International Monetary Fund did not too long ago that showed that when women are put into not only more positions professionally, but also given higher wages, it actually increases the wages for men as well. So when we think about that, that old adage of a rising tide lifts all boats, the more that we diversify our, our workforce, for example, the better off everybody is, it's not just the people who are being centered in that particular recruitment process. Another one that often is discussed is, you know, you think back to the 1970s. And sidewalks had these big huge curbs, right. And because of the disability rights movement, those curbs were cut so that, you know, people who had mobility issues could cross the street safely. Well, not only did that help people with physical disabilities, but it helped the elderly, it helped parents pushing strollers, it helped anyone who's trying to you know, lug their suitcase, to the, you know, to the subway or to the bus. So ultimately, it had a significant positive impact on everybody. So I think when we, when we take that notion of the zero sum game out of the equation of equity, we find that it, it ultimately leads to better results that serve everybody.

Jeff Ma  
I love that. And, as I, as I kind of picture, sharing these things with some of the leaders that need it, or should hear it, I can't help but feel like, you know, trying to meet them where they're, they are but they they take these types of things, they may take these types of things as as accusations of, of weakness and failure and kind of it becomes very polarizing, from my experience of where you're basically saying you're doing it wrong, and you did change you need to get better. And I think that cause, that that can cause a lot of leaders to shut down and cause them to become basically hostile and they don't want to they don't want to hear these things. It's very uncomfortable. Is there a way to get through to those folks?

Maria Morukian  
I find that I'm not going to get very far if I keep trying to convince people to see things my way, even if I do it with a smile on my face. So it comes down to giving others the space to share their perspectives and experiences and really leaning into asking questions and asking them so what's the story behind your beliefs? You know, What's your why? Why is this important to you? Why does this concern you tell me more helped me understand things from your perspective. And the more that I do that, the more open people are, to hear other perspectives, because they feel heard, as I was saying earlier, the other thing is that I often in my work, when I'm coaching leaders, or training leaders around this, and I can see that they're kind of stuck in that space of resistance, is to say, just sit with this for a while. Think on it, write about it, I'm not, I'm not asking you to change your mind. In this very moment. I'm giving you some alternative perspectives that you may not have been aware of. And I want to invite you to come back and let's talk about it again. Because this dialogue needs to be ongoing. I think just kind of as a DEI practitioner, as somebody who cares about this work to be in it for the long haul, and no, and not give up and not, and give people some space and some grace to unlearn. But knowing that that's going to be iterative, and it's not necessarily going to happen overnight, as much as I would love it to, I think it's a really important part of the process as well.

Jeff Ma  
Well, Maria, I'm certainly glad you're going through the process and being patient with the world as you do this work, because such incredible things you've shared. And I think your perspective is like the way you're framing things is so clear. And and so important. And I hope I'm glad I had this chance for you to come and share that because the work you're doing is so difficult. I, you lead the I lead the the conversation with this, this what's the story of our world and I asked that intentionally because it feels like our story is, you know, going down a path and it's, it's seemingly going to get harder before it gets easier. And I think it's going to take a lot of a lot of people like you a lot of the work and the patience and the and the kind of steadfast work that you're doing to get us to the other sites. I really appreciate you for all that you do and for joining me here today.

Maria Morukian  
Thank you, Jeff.

Jeff Ma  
Well, I hope everybody enjoyed that conversation. I appreciate you all for joining in the podcast. Be sure to also check out Maria's podcast culture stew, where can they find that or find out more about that Maria.

Maria Morukian  
So cultures do our podcast is on pretty much any place where you can get podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, so on and so forth. And you can also check out my my company's website, it's msmglobalconsulting.com. And we have a number of blogs, podcasts, we have a newsletter, videos and a lot of additional information and folks can also find me on LinkedIn and Instagram and all of those fun socials as well.

Jeff Ma  
So be sure to include that in the notes. So with that, Maria, thank you so much for your time. Everybody. Have a wonderful week and we will see you soon