Jasmine Bellamy  0:00  
If we think that people who are unwell are not showing up at work, we are kidding ourselves. If we also now have to take accountability that that we are also a part of what is causing them to be unwell. What would it look like to be a loving leader

Jeff Ma  0:23  
Hello and welcome to love as a business strategy, the podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business buy we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories about how real people and real businesses operate. And today, I'm joined by a familiar face and voice, Chris Pitre, who I just joked with you just before the show, Chris, you are here, maybe one every 20 episodes. 

Chris Pitre  1:03  
But whenever I - love that trend, it's a multiple of four, which I like

Jeff Ma  1:08  
Rough estimation, but I'm super excited to have you here joining me here. And especially since our guest today is Jasmine Bellamy and Jasmine is a love practitioner, joyful disrupter, and a business and culture transformer. She's a retail veteran and the former vice president of merchandising, planning and allocation and head of community and culture at Reebok, a scholar practitioner focused on organizational culture and change management. She is the creator and CO facilitator of courageous conversations, a platform that inspires communal culture transformation, which places her among Sports Illustrated, top 100 influential black women in sports. Jasmine is also the founder and spiritual director of Love 101 Ministries, which is dedicated to the theological theology and practice of love and the host of the call to love experience. Jazmin earned a bachelor's in marketing management from Syracuse University, Master of Business Administration from Fordham University and a Master of Arts in theology from Fuller Seminary where she's pursuing a doctorate in global leadership, focusing on the redemptive imagination of the marketplace. And with that, I would love to welcome Jasmine Bellamy to the show Jasmine, how are you?

Jasmine Bellamy  2:32  
Wonderful, it is so good to be here with you both?

Jeff Ma  2:37  
Absolutely, we, we are we are recording this at least in the early part of 2024 here and it's curious if anyone had any new year's resolutions for this year, Jasmine, anything. So

Jasmine Bellamy  2:51  
I don't really do resolutions. But I do a contemplative vision board exercise where I really pay close attention to the themes that I've seen cultivating in my life. So having said that, what I see on my vision board, it has this there's a couple of things, a couple of elements one, I have a retreat practice where I go away quarterly go off the grid to take good care of myself, so that I can, you know, operate at the pace I need to to be able to do this this culture transformation work. And so I have a 10 day, pilgrimage and Spain this summer. So I have a picture from that VISTA that I'll see on my board. As you shared in the the introduction, I'm also a spiritual direction restrict spiritual director. And so I have this quote that says the first duty of love is to listen to remind me of that, that critical role of listening. And then there's also a quote on there about as we heal ourselves and our in our inner child, that we are creating safety for ourselves. So just a reminder of what it feels like to be safe as me having grown up and having to do my own work. And the real other piece that I am excited to be able to talk about with you today is a reminder of what it looks like to be a loving leader. So those are the things with writing and speaking all of that together. Is what's on my vision board for 2024 How about you?

Jeff Ma  4:46  
So she said New Year's resolution that's child's play. Chris I love to see you follow that up. What are what are your New Year's mood spirit boards and and plans. I

Chris Pitre  5:01  
don't know if I'm a bad human, but like, I'm, I'm of the mindset that if I want change, I want it now. And I'm not going to postpone it for a new year. So if I've been thinking about things that 2023, I started them in 2023. So I just, that's how my mind operates. Because if I'm thinking about it, that means I can commit to it now. Or say, like, you know, like, I'm gonna wake up on the first and I'm just gonna stop doing this, and I'm gonna start doing this. And it's like, no, that's not how I work. So I don't have New Year's resolutions, I have the mindset that change starts when the second you think of it, go ahead and put it into action. So you think less of it. And you can actually sort of just model your behaviors after that sort of initial sort of gut feel that you had. When you started thinking about it. You know, I was once told that the road to hell is paved with rationalization. So the more you rationalize things, the more you will tuck yourself away from doing the right things, and probably settling for the wrong things.

Jeff Ma  6:05  
All right, well, well, well followed. Good job, Chris, there you have it. I'll pass on this question. My answer is no, I don't have I don't have any, anything as compelling as either of you. But Jasmine, back to you. I like to kick off any guests with the most important question to me at least, which is, what is your passion?

Jasmine Bellamy  6:26  
Oh, that's easy love.

Jeff Ma  6:30  
Okay, now elaborate.

Jasmine Bellamy  6:35  
So, um, you know, I've definitely come to this place where I see love as a calling that it is rooted in my purpose. And what that looks like for me is that every encounter that I have with people is a loving encounter. And not just that, that's not just that I bless other people, but I am also gifted in that exchange. And so I think when we think about the kinds, the times that we're living in, love is not necessarily the thing that you might experience. When you meet a person, it's, you know, what is the barista, whether it's your neighbor, whether it's your co worker, and so I really endeavor to be loving every encounter. So that's, that really is what is just underneath me, and what has happened for me over the past four years, is, you know, I've been in the business world for 30 years. And you, I'm sure know more than anybody else, it's not necessarily the most loving context. And so I've kind of had this convergence in my life, where I have learned to become a loving leader, and I've seen transformative results. And so what does it look like to be loving? My context is really the question that I have, or the call to action I offer anywhere that I speak in the workplace includes that. So I think where I am today is really leaning into being the loving leader. But it started first with what does it look like to be a loving being. And as I did that kind of into internal work, it started to move outward. And it would make sense to then transform the context that I'm always in, which would be the workforce. Awesome.

Chris Pitre  8:32  
I love a good origin story. I really do it. So I actually want to ask a follow up question to that. So I was gonna make it look very simple. But like, one day you wake up no love not loving leader, the next day you wake up and you have this mission? Like what? Like, was there a defining moment that pushed you towards this? Was it a stretch of time? Was it like a realization? I'm just curious, so I don't want to, like, tell you what it is. But I'm gonna just I'm really curious to

Jasmine Bellamy  9:00  
know and love that follow up question. And so it really started with the fact that I, you know, I live my life doing all the things that I was supposed to do, you know, checking all the boxes of what success looks like, you know, the thinking that that growth was this, you know, very, you know, straight trajectory of, you know, all of those things, I've done all of those things and gone and got my MBA, gone to business school, gotten all the promotions, had the kids lived in the suburbs was Mary, all of the things. And somewhere along the lines, all of those things. They were there was pieces of meaning still missing. There was a depth that was still missing. And I had had been married 22 years, decided that this was not a loving place for me any longer. And as I was kind of coming through that transition, I just could have hear very clearly that there was love greater than what I had ever understood. And that was kind of I don't want to say it was the first seed because when I looked back, I can see other ones being planted. But I feel like that was the one that was the most loud, if that makes sense. At that time 

Chris Pitre  10:19  
it doesn't make sense. 

Jasmine Bellamy  10:20  
Yeah. And then after that, a few months later, just thinking about what it is to be love, what it what it, what it what does it mean to live a life of love? And I was actually surprised that I had never thought about that before, like in my whole life. thought about it, no one had asked me that question, no space that I went into actually ever kind of asked that question. And so I became love student. And that was in 2018. And from that moment, I really just started, you know, I had like a voracious appetite to study love. And so it was from everything from sacred texts of multi, you know, different related religions, to philosophers, to social media, to whatever. And I just kept finding these very common threads and things. And I started to commit to creating a practice of love for my own life. And as I did that work, I understood it was a practice because it wasn't just to your point, you turn on the light one day, and you show up as a loving being, as you start to try to live out that life, you see, sometimes you're not so loving. And so a practice of trying, again, beginning again. And I called it a practice, because I have, I had also studied started a meditation practice at a time and the yoga practice at the time. And one of the things I realized is those practices, while they were challenging, it was just me and my mat or my cushion. And his love thing was much more complicated because I had to deal with other humans. And so it was, how do I really manage me well, and give grace to this other being that I have no control over. And so again, when I mess up, how can I hold myself accountable, and begin again, and, and kind of develop a muscle that I can see over time growth is coming from it. And so as I did that, I remembered literally saying one day like love is a practice. And I thought I discovered that term until I found out Bill hooks said it before me and Erich Fromm said it for her. Um, and so then I automatically like, was like, oh, there's this whole world of love going on around that I had never even considered before. And it just really dove all the way in. And then really fast forwarding to creating my own community to really share my writings, I used to have a writing practice, I wrote every day for two hours, for almost a year, and just sharing the things that I was learning and seeing, you know, come out is these loving responses to really normal, challenging things in life, and sharing it and seeing that there was an audience that actually wanted to figure out how to be more loving to that the way we dismiss people, or cancel them on social media, that there's actually another way. And so all of that just started growing over time. And it wasn't until, you know, that's what actually led me to seminary because I wanted to figure out how to be a better student. And that says, a better communicator of all these things that I was learning. And it wasn't until George Floyd was murdered in 2020, that all of a sudden now it converged with work. And so I was asked at the time to leave what was called the United Against Racism, change management. And I was and I remember saying out loud, why are you asking me to lead this? And I immediately knew why I was asked to lead this because I understood that love was the only force that can actually tackle this subject. And so, you know, having taken you know, two years of study and starting to apply it to what would it look like to be love in this context? What is the language to use, how to frame it up? How to how do you make these this big concept be something that we could put to action and live at work? And then courageous conversations really became the communal practice to be able to do that. And so So yeah, I mean, it's, it's it definitely was Something starting to develop and 2017 took on a lot of steam and studying 1819 kind of came out for everybody to kind of be a part of and grow with the community. And then 2020 It transitioned into the communal life when I was at Reebok. So and I think where I find myself now is I, it wasn't just about me, and what I thought this solution was, it was being the vessel for it. And then watching the community around me change watching the culture around me change. And so you had people saying things like, I'm not just an a better employee. Now, because we've had these courageous conversations and love has been at the root of it, I'm a better husband, I'm a better spouse, I'm a better child, I'm a better neighbor. And so it was going beyond work into their context. And you just had all these people being transformed by each other stories. And so I just started to really learn what the power of love could do, even in a work context. And it was doing that for the past four years, that then I was able to understand this call on on my life really to be this loving leader. And so what does it look like to transform leadership? With love at the root? And of course, then how does that leadership then change the people in the system as well as the context? So that's my, that's my long winded.

Jeff Ma  16:41  
No, I love it. Incredible. Yeah, it's incredible. And you know, I'm really, it's awesome to see the stepping stones that kind of brought you step by step towards where you are today. And where you are today, mentioning, the loving leader is something that I really want to dive in with you. Today, you sent me this. And it's it, it blew my mind. According to a study by the workforce Institute at UKG, almost 70% of people polled across 10 countries responded that their managers had the greatest impact on their mental health, on par with the impact of their partner, and greater than their doctor, or therapist. And this was something that really blew me away. And I wanted to start there, and see if you could dive into this kind of impetus for the loving leader, and what that really means to you.

Jasmine Bellamy  16:41  
Thank you for that question. Isn't that like a fascinating study?

Jeff Ma  16:52  
Yeah.

Jasmine Bellamy  17:28  
I mean, it's fascinating. And, you know, you might somebody might ask, Well, what does that have to do with being a loving leader? What it said to me is that this is about humanity. That, you know, we have inherited a marketplace that was built on the dehumanization of people, you know, the objectification of people, people for productivity purposes. And I remember the first time, I kind of was challenged to think about, like, the ethics of the marketplace, and I just, I, naively, to some degree was like, Well, I love work. Like, as a team, I love contributing, I love being a part of something bigger than myself, but I wasn't really thinking back to what was really, at the root, you know, in, you know, y'all do such an amazing job of just talking about the cultural values and norms. And so, that study helped me realize that there was a really powerful role we play in the lives of humans at work. And, you know, when we consider the amount of time that we spend at work, that if we allow a system to dehumanize people that we are we are, we actually now have data that we are essentially doing them mental harm from them a mental well being perspective. And like, and that that we don't really know that but but now it's like right in front of in front of our faces, and we have to kind of be held accountable to that. And I think you put that in conversation with what does it look like to unleash the potential of people? That it that that treating people like objects versus subjects doesn't actually bring the best out in them. So not productivity for productivity sake, but productivity from the perspective that I feel like I am doing something that is meaningful and purposeful to me something that matters and that makes me Become illuminated. And so all you know, it's like all boats rise because we are operating in that space. So that was what was disturbing to me about that study. But I put that study in conversation with the rampid amount of loneliness that we are experiencing in our country, the rise of mental health specialists, the demand of them. If we think that people who are unwell are not showing up at work, we are kidding ourselves. And so if we also now have to take accountability, that that we are also a part of what is causing them to be unwell. What would it look like to be a loving leader? What would it be like to see people as gifts to to value them to honor their dignity and humanity to see the spark of the divine in them and figuring out what does it look like to fan their flame so that all of our potential is unleashed? What would the result then be? You know, so that's kind of where that study kind of just hit me really hard in the gut to think about the damage that leaders who are unloving are doing to humans. And if you really think about it even further, that's not just impacting them as employees isn't isn't impacting them as parents, it is impacting them as partners, it is impacting them as neighbors, it is impacting them as children. And so what if we created a new way of being and you know, it may sound naive to some degree. But the journey for me has been that as I have become a loving leader, beyond me transforming the company, my team has benefited. My my direct reports have benefited, and they've said things to me, like, literally, somebody said to me yesterday, you you are doing something that can change humanity. One of my direct reports said that to me yesterday, another said to me, you've given me confidence, to be able to show up as me. And that has allowed me to just have the freedom to do my best without a fear of failure, like I'm gonna be punished for it. And other people have said things like, I just, I just feel more free. Like, it's easy. Like, this is a joy, we're having fun. And so those are the, the, the, you know, those people who have been my direct reports and the teams underneath them, because they've said things like, like, it's it just felt safe. Like it, there was ease, you know, there's joy, there's the light. And the fact that that's actually what the workplace can be, is super inspiring to me. And I'll say this, because, you know, I have also pressure tested this with people. So I've asked some CHRO's and some CEOs and CIO to like, kind of challenge me. And the one thing someone said to me that I thought was really important, he said, Don't also take for granted that you have a capacity to do this work. And think that everybody can just do it. So I'm so I also understand the challenge of this call to be a loving leader, like I really do. But I also really, I'm so growth mindset oriented, that I'm not afraid of the ask. Makes sense, and really trying to be an example to demonstrate it not, you know, not in some way, like I got it all figured it out at all, because if anything, it makes me more humble. Like you, you operate in much more humility, when you're looking to learn from your team as much as they are looking for you to lead them. When, you know, when you're vulnerable and you're relying on their expertise. That then you are also amplifying you know, so, um, yeah, so, that's kind of where that how that study just really shook me. Um, I just I kept thinking about I actually just wrote about Just recently, when I think about my executive development roadmap, in my first job out of school, and we focused on soft skills and technical skills, I became a manager of people. And I just question if I really had the tools to do that well, and you know, and I hope I didn't cause anybody harm in the process, you know. But it's but it's, I just think that that's really important for us to think about when we think about people as humans, and not just objects, it requires just just much, much more greater task, and responsibility and accountability to being a leader.

Chris Pitre  25:48  
Nice, actually wanted to come back to the statement that you made about, you have the capacity, but for others, this is a challenge, knowing that we might have some listeners who are like, Oh, my begin comfortable with this idea of love and being a loving leader? What tips and what sort of quick wins? Can they sort of start with unnecessarily and with them stay on this journey? But like, what can I start with, to, you know, in a simple or maybe approachable way, become a loving leader in their everyday context without sort of giving up heaps of time, or, you know, sort of creating a new reality that they may not be able to do for themselves?

Jasmine Bellamy  26:25  
I love that question. And I pay you to say it. So, I have been using a framework based on the letters of the word love. And it is for that purpose to give people a place to start, because usually when I finished a presen presentation on love people like, Oh, my God, how do I start? So l, kind of going back to my vision board that I mentioned, is to start with listening deeply. To look, again, that second look, meaning that we look to the dignity of the person in front of us, the Oh, is really almost for open for so many things. But being open hearted, what I know about this work of love, that it is not just in our minds that it requires a dropping down on to our hearts, that you know, and that's where that vulnerability pieces to be able to be touched, which is one of the V's vulnerability, and then also value really seeing the value and the people in front of us. II for a couple right one being emotional intelligence. And I even push back on that a tad. Because again, it's not just this thinking thing, it's a hard thing. But the idea that, that it is, it is a part of the process of becoming more emotionally intelligent, also expansive, that love caught just gives us this invitation to grow and expand more than than we probably could ever even imagine. And also emotional well being which really goes right back to that study and why it was so particularly disturbing to me, in terms of our control over people's emotional health. So it's thinking about that framework just gives us something to kind of have in the back of our minds, as we are kind of going forth and doing this, this this work of leadership and understanding what it would look like to be a loving leader. Nice.

Jeff Ma  28:44  
I think one thought that that crosses my mind, because the challenge we face as well is completely agree with kind of this idea that leaders, we understand that leaders are such an important integral part of this change that needs to happen. But these these ideas, these expectations, like a loving leader is not a prerequisite or a current expectation in how leaders are promoted and how they're put into their place. And the leaders who make these decisions aren't aren't equipped with these things. So the question we always get is, so like, where do we begin, as a system or as as an as a society to break into this system? How do we disrupt this pattern? Because we're putting leaders into place that don't know that they don't need to do this or don't have aren't equipped to do this yet. And then we're expecting them to then bring up the next round of leaders. So this is kind of perpetuates itself without this is disruption. So where do you see that happening and what level what layer and how that plays out? 

Jasmine Bellamy  29:54  
Yeah, I love that question for a couple of reasons. One, what courageous conversation It's taught me was that the transformation was coming up coming from the bottoms up. And as a member of the senior leadership team, I understand that I understood and I know you do as well, the critical nature of it also being top down and coming from the senior leadership. And I understood that that also means that that the senior leaders are not necessarily equipped. And so what does it look like, you know, the joyful disrupter in me says, Sure, I get that it that it doesn't exist today. But how do we start to change the system? And so one of those things looks like, which I know you also talked about in your book, too, is this idea of what are the behaviors that get put into place that support the brand, or the company is built around these loving concepts, so that it becomes a way of being for us, that we get evaluated on? So how do those things show up in a review. So to your point, that when it comes to somebody being promoted, we are evaluating them on on on these aspects are so that is one piece, but I think there's also just very real practical things to do to mitigate the gap, that we're aware that that there's this opportunity, we actually have to take some action steps around it. So while courageous conversations is like a communal practice, it might mean, what does it look like also then to be doing special, you know, retreats, or exercises with the senior leadership, so they can also be putting it into practice, so that it also becomes top down. But also, what does it look like to put it as a priority of the senior leadership team so that it doesn't just become this bottoms up thing, and people are disappointed because their leaders don't support it, but that the leaders themselves are also on this journey of growth together? And so I think that's the thing, you know, I think the beauty, or the freedom that love invites us to when it comes to growth is none of us have arrived. We all have growth in front of us. Like that's what being a human being is about. So it's the honesty about where am I today? And where is it that I can, I could be drawn toward, but it just really requires that, that, that investment, of the importance of the work and committing to it, you know, my mantra with, with my ministry, work is love as a practice what we practice we become. So it is about the repetition of doing it again, and again and again, and we start working muscles that we've not worked before, and then we start to see the results. So I think that's we begin from wherever it is that we are is the real answer to all of it. But it is the fact that we have to begin, you know, going back to Chris's comment about, you know, his his resolutions, I don't do resolutions, because when I know it's time to change, I'm doing it right now. It's that kind of action to begin again, right now, even as I mess up, I begin again right now. And that looks like repair and recovery, and in vulnerability and humility and all of those things.

Chris Pitre  33:40  
Well, practice makes permanent. That's what I was taught. I love that. I love that.

Jeff Ma  33:48  
Jasmine, these things are in one on one hand like things that I know, Chris, you probably feel the same way incredibly familiar with to us, because it's just you're speaking right to the heart of everything that we so deeply believe in. And yet, it was really fresh, it was really refreshing to see it through your lens and to hear how you're pushing for it, how you're fighting for it, how you're embracing it. And so I really appreciate what you brought today to the to the conversation and really appreciate you opening up and sharing about all these all the things that you're working with. It's

Jasmine Bellamy  34:25  
Thank you can I just tell you, though, when I found your book,  I felt so affirmed in this call. I knew that y'all are my people that are out on this crazy ledge that like your work was so inspiring to me. So can I just tell you like, I'm happy that you exist. And thank you for leading the way and just know that I'm flattered fanning your flame and cheering you on to 

Jeff Ma  34:57  
Wow,

Chris Pitre  34:57  
thank you so much. We appreciate that. That's awesome. Really do. We're glad you found us too. Thank you so much for you know, helping but also for being another, you know, practitioner and advocate of just love in the workplace because we to agree that it's, it's the one force that can roll out just about everything and people will just let it just give her the space and the opportunity to do so.

Jeff Ma  35:23  
Yeah. Jasmine, the question I'll leave you with is a fill in the blank with one or more words. The most important thing for me to show up as my whole authentic self at work is like

Jasmine Bellamy  35:40  
to be free. To be safe to be without fear.

Jeff Ma  35:48  
Awesome. With that, we thank you, Jasmine, we thank you listeners for tuning in. As always, we hope you've subscribed and share with your friends but also, as Jasmine said, check out our book love as a business strategy. She loved it, you might love it too. But if you do if you don't let us know about it, let's talk about it. We love to hear your feedback. So with that, please subscribe rate the podcasts. We love you all and we'll see you next week.