Jeff Ma
Hey folks, we have some exciting news for you all. We have just launched a brand new company founded on the tenets of our love as a business strategy philosophy, the same philosophy that you've grown to know and love. This new venture is called culture plus, culture Plus is a culture as a service company that provides training experiences, consulting services, and digital tools to help companies achieve high performing and high reliability cultures and teams. To learn more, visit culture-plus.com. That's culture-plus.com. And now, let's get to the show. Today's episode is packed full of incredible stories and insights, as we really focus in on change and how to create sustainable change that sticks. And to break it all down. We invite Loubna Noureddin to the show, an expert in change, she shares wisdom from her life, her research and her work, from the story of how she survived to civil wars, to what she's been working on. With doctors and nurses and healthcare today, we learn a whole lot and you will too. So enjoy the show.

Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the centre of every successful business. How's it going? I'm your host, Jeff Ma, and I'm joined by my co host and co author, Mohammad Anwar, today. Hey, Moh. How's it going?

Mohammad Anwar
Hey, Jeff, good to see you again.

Jeff Ma
Excellent. Each episode MO You know, we dive into one element of business with strategy and we test our theory of love against it. And today's guest is a leadership scholar, executive coach, orphans, advocates, Civil War survivor and CEO of mine market consultants, a resource and coaching Centre for organisations and startups that prioritises cultures of brilliance over systems of unnecessary changing chaos. So I'd like to welcome to the show. Dr. Loubna Noureddin.

Loubna Noureddin
Thank you. Thank you appreciate the intro.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. Loubna? As you may know, or not know, we actually have to start with an icebreaker. So you didn't know. But one way to make it easier for you is I make Moh go first. And then you can get the same question. So you have more time. That's to that question today is, what is your favourite tradition or holiday?

Mohammad Anwar
You've asked me this question before.

Jeff Ma
Maybe it's changed. Maybe it's changed since?

Mohammad Anwar
Okay, well, my favourite holiday is the Christmas break. Because at that point in time, like everybody at work goes off. Clients are busy everybody's, you know, doing their things with their families and celebrating the holidays. So it really becomes a relaxing vacation time. It's not like you're going on vacation in other times of the year and people are still texting you, you know, you're still trying to put out fires still deal with works, you're not really going on vacation. So I really like the Christmas time. Holidays, because it's time that I think I literally disconnect from work and I know everybody's also enjoying themselves. So it's is the best time of the year. Agreed.

Jeff Ma
Good answer the same question. What is your favourite tradition or holiday?

Loubna Noureddin
I think for me, my favourite holiday is being with my parents in London. And when I get to be with them, which doesn't happen to be often because of work. I feel it's the different holidays. So we celebrate dinner together and bring all the traditions to that table whenever I can and be with them. So and I agree with you more that Mohammad is being there. At Christmas time. It is a relaxing time. It seems like a gratitude time more than any other holiday. Absolutely.

Mohammad Anwar
Yep. Agreed.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. Well, that was easy, quick and painless budget to jump in.

Loubna Noureddin
Yes or no.

Mohammad Anwar
And you know, we're just around the corner for the holidays too. So now you're getting me all excited. Yes.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, absolutely. Luna, I gave you a very, very, very brief introduction that didn't even cover kind of all that you do. So I want to give a little space for you to just start us off just telling us a little bit about who you are and your a little bit about your story and your passion. If you don't mind

Loubna Noureddin
All right, I, I think my passion has always been finding potential in people, and truly believing in the potential of others. And the human is when you said humanity, I love that because believing in the true essence of humanity, been through two civil wars, in both Wars came very close to death. And of course, the most surprising factor of hope and optimism came from a human that I would not expect that hope to come from. So I've learned about change at a very, very, very young age, at the age of 10. I woke up to the huts, you know, and have a rifle pressed on my forehead. I was 10 years old, and Sierra Leone was on the verge of civil war. And when there's an impending battle happening, things, unwelcome things, and I'll welcome visitors to happen. So in my case, it was rebels from other cities coming in to take whatever valuables they could find. On that day, my family and I managed to leave, flee, leave our home, leave everything behind, including my teddy bear. I was more upset about my teddy bear than the house and upset on my dad for not letting me back in to get it and didn't realise that, you know, my dad and mom just lost everything, the life they had, along with my teddy bear were left behind. So change come suddenly. And other people's conflicts and agendas rarely have concerns to what you hold dear. So I think my experience would change started at that time. And at that age, and horrific as it was, we were not expected to survive. We ran into the jungle. And believe me, you cannot survive the jungle in Sierra Leone. But we were rescued by a tribe of non cannibals. I'm not kidding, they are cannibals. But one tries men took it upon himself to rescue us, took us through wilderness that no modern human would survive. And to cut through his own, you know, internal map to a place of peace, and use dust to ward off predators and animals that were not welcome through the trip. And yes, some people call it magic. And in our world here, magic is not welcome. So I have seen a lot of magic in Africa. And I would say it's for those who do not relate to magic, it's that little light of optimism and hope that comes through when you feel everything else is just darkness. And it's the extra ordinary outcome that occurs when nothing else works. When you feel doomed, so yes, I've learned change at a very, very young age and change can be totally unpredictable and life changing.

Jeff Ma
Amazing. You mentioned, I guess, the power of humanity or the key word humanity earlier and you said you, you kind of found that in unexpected places. Can you elaborate on on that and where you? We've found that lesson.

Loubna Noureddin
So would you like that and just that 10 year old experience or more?

Jeff Ma
Anywhere you wherever wherever you find it? Yeah,

Loubna Noureddin
absolutely. All right. So back then, this group of cannibals normally would have welcomed us as a really good dinner, side table, and instead, a younger man in the tribe decided to rescue us. We felt we were doomed and yes that he meant that humanity in this person was stronger than his need for a feast. Right? And we were rescued. And I kid you not they were cannibals. And no one to attract unwelcome tribes we were unwelcome to their area. And he rescued us that was first and you know, this was my first Civil War. So my second happened in Lebanon. And it's funny how war happens as you go to school and attend college. And you go to college, knowing that bombs are exploding, in you know, neighbourhoods, not to far from your home or from your school, and life became normal during war. But humanity also showed up for me in college because there was a time, the American University of Beirut was a neutral place and a protected place. And soldiers were never allowed inside the territory. And yet, there was a day when the soldiers came in. And the agenda for them violated that promise of neutrality for the college. And they wanted to dismantle our culture of education and dismantle the belief that we are safe inside the university for their political agenda and for separation. And we as girls, in back then stood in the way of these army men by stepping on the floor, and sleeping on the floor, to not allow their cars to come in to the college. And all we wanted was to save our boys and professors from harm and separation. So humanity happens because again, they could have stepped on us. And ignored all TVs, because it has happened before. But you know, that very person driving the truck, that humongous truck stopped, and realise that these are girls on the floor, I cannot do this, you know, the command was move forward, move forward, and we could hear it. The funny part is the humanity and all this was, my friend looked at me, she was sitting next to me on the floor, and she said, if they step on us, I'm going to find you in Heaven and kill you and go to hell. And so, you know, those moments of bravery, their humanity, you know, dressed up in a more serious way. But we were saved that day and saved our own college teachers. And same thing happened when I decided to go as a refugee to Canada, in 1986, okay, now tells my age 88, I decided that I needed a better future for my family. And as a young adult, very young adult, by the way, left to Canada, as a refugee. And I have to tell you, I saw humanity again. And I saw the hope again, because as a refugee in Montreal, I never once felt lesser than any officer, Judge, social worker or human, that I came in touch with never once that I feel lesser as a human being. And to me, if nothing, this is the biggest lesson for humanity. I felt no value. I had no hope. I was broken as a human being. And every touch point, as a refugee made me feel better and better, until I came back in touch with who I am. So yes, I you know, a thing or two about change. And that probably was the biggest and best change I had in my life. So as someone who has ultimately earned a PhD in organisational change, and leadership and spend 20 years inside corporate serving corporate and five years outside of it. I can not help myself but tell you that humanity is the best way out. We can demand compliance of people for so long. And resilience and retaliation comes in three forms. They escape. We see the resignation now in the millions. And that's the escape. They clash. And we see it in teams as they fight and clash and compete over the same conflicting priorities. And so they clash. They escape or they hide, and we see that hidden human behind masks of confidence and assertiveness, hiding burnouts, lack of confidence and fear of what's next. So to me, it's either come back to humanity or continue to see that form of retaliation happen again and again in organisations that I support that i I'm sure you support as well. So I think I've said enough about me

Jeff Ma
this whole episodes about you, so.

Mohammad Anwar
So I was gonna ask

Loubna Noureddin
question Jeff, did that answer your question? I'm not sure.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. We have more more questions to come. Yes. Good.

Mohammad Anwar
Good. I was gonna ask, I mean, first of all, you sharing those lived experiences just got me, you know, having goosebumps and stuff. So thank you for sharing that. And I'm wondering how did those lived experiences? influence your approach to change management? Or how do you use that experience of yourself in life? And how do you inform your tactics or your approach to change management at an organisational level? Would you be able to shed some light on that?

Loubna Noureddin
Absolutely. You know, colleague of mine did her doctoral journey on emotional intelligence, and Lean Six Sigma professionals. So she studied the difference in EQ between professionals who have completed their Lean Six Sigma certification, and like professionals who have not, and found no significant difference between the two. And I say that because change has focused consistently on the process side. So while in change in change agents and Change Catalyst spend about 67 to 70% of their time with people, their curriculums, their work, their processes are all based on the non human factor, and age. So I still remember the day that I decided to do my doctoral journey on change. And I was presenting to a group of senior leadership about their change efforts. This was 128 processes that went through standard work. So process improvement work. Over three years, this company, this healthcare system, spent millions on creating those process improvement processes, really good reason and good purpose to make these process improvement initiatives in place. And I had to stand there and analyse the sustainability of these efforts after three years. And found myself telling them that only 11 processes out of 128 had sustained. All the others fell through the crack. This was an organisation that won awards, national awards for the processes that were following, but only 11 sustained. And I went back and studied the why behind this failure. So on the outside, it looks like we're doing great, and I call it the hallucination phenomenon. For senior leaders, senior leaders, things, everything is going great. We have a bold strategy, people are happy, they're making money, why shouldn't they be happy. And then you go down to the levels as you go, you know, you pick the layers and layers of employees, and you find something completely different on the other side. So you know, we're we're hallucinating on this perfect phenomenon. The bottom line is experiencing something completely different, right? So I went back, I looked at this and found my confidence, and my anchor to go back to my experience and say, Oh, no, it's the same thing. The human side of the equation is what really matters. And no matter what these certifications tell me, or these people with really, very long titles tell me the experience I've had as a child, as a teenager. And as an adult, I truly speak to the reality that I knew in my heart, but would in their share, which is, the human side matters so much more. And trust me if you want to waste potential, put people in situations where they're spent their energy in surviving, instead of engaging their talent and really contributing their well being and their hearts with a strong culture that sustains and runs on the United Front of alignment, your goals. Conflicts happens because we're really not in touch with what really matters in the organisation. And I think that's How I brought back that experience to work. No matter where I'm sitting, and with whom I'm having the conversation. Culture is what drives you. And it's what driving millions of people right now. To say enough, I choose to find the culture that suits my needs a culture that works for me, and a culture that can clearly help me stay aligned to my purpose. So I think this is how I brought it back to my work.

Mohammad Anwar
Awesome. No, that's a very, very insightful and helpful. And I'm curious, from your experience working with, you know, hospital organisations and not what is it that you see different about hospital systems, and then trying to institute or embracing change versus non hospital systems, I like to see if you've observed any differences, or seen any patterns, that's, you know, indicative of the two different, you know, industry types.

Loubna Noureddin
I think what I see, and I say it's unfortunate, is healthcare systems, looking for consulting, and looking for the experiences of non healthcare individuals, to reclaim their sense of financial health, and commitment to a profitable environment. And what I have seen is, at most powerful thing about health care systems, is that the purpose is an incredible one. You know, most organisations may struggle with purpose. And yet, some really smart ones like Zappos right, found its great purpose behind selling shoes, and brought it to life. And with organisations in health care, I see surprisingly, that they're not tapping into that purpose. And what we could do differently and tap into more is, we have a great purpose, we save lives, we can create a much more aligned culture toward a purpose that is incredibly powerful. And yet, that's why I see them as so where organisations could do better and healthcare is kept back for that purpose, create that culture of change based on purpose. And it's a mess in organisations. I feel like we've hired these accountants or financial people from, from the Financial District to come and really govern the organisations in healthcare. And we can learn a lot from other organisations. But what we cannot miss is the focus on purpose that could be empowering to your own employees, to your own stakeholders, to your customers, your patients and their families. And I would love for that to become the centre of communication during change, because we're missing that purpose.

Mohammad Anwar
Got it? Would you say that maybe, and this is just my perception, right? So would you say that maybe some of the, at least down at the clinicians level, they're all very understanding of their purpose. They know what they signed up to do, why they chose that career path. But somehow, that goal of saving lives are what they're doing. They know that it saving lives and helping humanity can come in the way of their them embracing change that might be different from what they've learned to do. For instance, I'm, I'm talking about of learning this healthcare industry, we noticed that there's a lot of challenges between physicians and see the nurses or other clinicians and there's conflicts and issues. And there is this hierarchical nature where doctors and nurses see each other in superiority or inferiority in terms of level and what they contribute, and where they stand in the pecking order. And that seems to have impacted the culture of, you know, hospital systems and how clinicians work with each other, where they may have forgotten their ultimate purpose, maybe somehow of saving lives. But somehow somewhere, conflicts and egos in the hierarchy and like all of this, have come into the equation of how culture is represented and experience. And I don't know Maybe it's just my observation or question, do you think that maybe they have forgotten the purpose? Or they believe they've already living it? So they have the ability to act this way? I mean, I don't know, what is your analysis of the problems that these healthcare organisation may be facing with? You know, how they treat each other as clinicians?

Loubna Noureddin
That is a great, great question. And you're absolutely right. It's not a perception. I do believe that. The health care worker, the nurse, the nurse assistants, the ones on, you know, on the units serving that patient, are very clear on their purpose. Right, very clear, I'm here to take care of this patient. When we talk about physician, same thing, right, the, you know, their ultimate goal is to bring that patient from, you know, stage A to stage B to a better health and so forth. I think what gets in the way is something that I just read. On I think Sloan magazine, 1.4 million data points of employee concepts or elements for culture, they took 1.4 million have data points to look at what to employee once, when it comes to culture, what are the expectation, and the top one that was significantly not only higher than others, but significantly higher than all others combined? Was respect. And it's a very interesting one, because they took those data points from Glassdoor, so whatever employees are saying about their companies, and you know, before they leave or or whatever they recognise their companies for, and it says that respect is one of the things that most employees want from their employer. I think that clash that happens has to do with missing that human need from each other. So I don't feel hurt, is what I hear nurses say, I don't feel heard. I don't feel listened to. And I don't feel respected, my voice is muffled. And they're coming to me, with changes to my business, to my work, they're telling me how to do my job better. But they're not here with me. They're not visible, and they don't show up to really see what happens, and how they can truly make a difference to me. Right. So I think that's where the change equation, equation is broken, that resistance to change is truly happening. Because of basic human needs. I'm tired, I'm burnt out, I'm not appreciated. And to top it off, you're telling me how to do my job better? And who are you to tell me how to manage my patients, because they're looking at numbers, right? And they're looking at stats, but they're not looking to truly take time to influence buy in and commitment from the health care worker that is out there doing the job, you know, that they do best? So, if you ask any healthcare professional, you know, from the organisations that you consult with, or that we consult with, right? The question is, how visible is are my leaders on my day to day, and yet they want to change my life in the workplace. And the intentions are in the right place, right? The intentions are always in the right place. Everyone wants to do a better job. And everyone wants to create a process that, you know, is better for the organisation. I think the Miss is back in the human need for respect for supportive leadership, for leaders that can listen and hear. And I cannot tell you about enough about them. middle manager I just wrote to Forbes about the middle manager. Those middle managers are in the middle, they have to manage the top, they have to manage the bottom and they are working in the zigzag life of pretending things are okay to the bottom and looking showing up as I'm okay. And then pretending to be the most open to change to their leaders who prove probably may not have a clue of what's happening on a day to day basis. And they don't want to hear it either. They don't want I hear

Mohammad Anwar
so so that's where I'm like, this is for me personally, I'm confused around. Like, this is a very purpose driven profession. It's a very goal driven mission, like, there's this, the highest purpose you could think of is like saving human lives, right. And a physician and nurse goes into this profession to bring good to serve humanity, and they believe they're serving humanity. But yet, the way they treat each other, sometimes the way they operate with each other, sometimes seems contradictory to the very purpose and mission that they may have signed up for. Because, you know, it's, it's obvious that the while they're serving patients, and they're out there to serve humanity save lives, they are still hurting each other through their behaviours through their interactions, by not giving respect by not listening by not hearing them. So that's where I, I think it's a lack of self awareness around these, these teams, these leaders, these professionals, where they, they know their purpose, but I don't think they know how they are representing that purpose in all equal light in terms of not just the patients, but anyone, they treat anyone they work with anyone they interact with, and that the purpose isn't just limited to patients, it should be everyone around you, cause no harm for anyone, and everyone and not just the patients. So I think that's the key to getting healthcare organisations to really embody that purpose beyond the patient care and into every aspect of their interaction. And I think that's missing.

Loubna Noureddin
You reminded me of a quotation that I absolutely love. I think it's by John Ron, one of the you know, most famous speakers on leadership. And he says, No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care.

Mohammad Anwar
Nice,

Loubna Noureddin
right? And I love that. Yes, it is, it is a great quotation. And one of my clients CEO said, Okay, send it to me, I'm going to send it to everyone, because that's exactly what's happening. I have this example, right now, of chief medical officer that I'm working with, who does not understand why the nursing leaders are not listening to him, is like, I don't get it, I'm doing the right thing for the organisation. I'm creating the change that everyone wants to see. And yet all I get is silence. And this passive resistance to my ideas, and my concept, and mine, and mine and mine. And the reality is, he has the best intentions for the team, the best intentions for the organisation, he truly has missed the boat, on the self awareness. And he does not even understand why they're not listening to him. And you know what this team does not care what you know, does not care how much you know, or how much experience you have. Because they personally cannot believe that you care for them or for their well being. And that resistance will continue to happen. So you're absolutely right. There is no question about their mutual care for the patient and the family. There is a misguided approach regarding how they care for each other. Yeah. So you know, back to your book. Yes, it's all about love. And show me some love and respect. You know, before I can actually want to work with you and collaborate with you that resistance. I see it so strongly, but it starts with self awareness. Yeah.

Mohammad Anwar
Absolutely.

Jeff Ma
I've written that code down in three places. Yes.

Loubna Noureddin
And English is real. It's for real. I love the code. And I wish I could say it's mine. It's not. Culture is a liability. When it's Miss aligned. When it's Miss aligned to your purpose, it's a liability. How could we be so good at caring for patients and families yet missed the boat on creating the same focus and care for our own teams? Yep, you know, so there's this constant change. And I hear people say, well, the nurses don't care. They're leaving for more money, I can assure you, I am working with a client that pay horrible salaries for the nurses, and the ones that care stay. They don't leave you, they want to be with you, and help you. But for me to stay, I want to feel heard, respected and cared for. Did that answer your question? I'm sorry, if I'm going?

Mohammad Anwar
Oh, absolutely. And I think it definitely helps validate the observations and the feelings that have had. So I think you're definitely affirming that, okay, this is this is not just my perception, that is what's happening. At.

Loubna Noureddin
Yeah, and I see the clash at the leadership level. So at the, at the more frontline levels, if you are an egoless, right physician, that cares for the team, the team is with you, and you know, holds you on, and there's the relationship was pretty tight. And that's what happens in the healthy unit. And you'll see less errors in these units and less issues, or concerns from patients and families. I see the ego starting to fluster as we go higher in the organisation. And I want to share a story with you that is, you know, funny, but worth sharing. If there's physicians out there listening. And I, I had a conversation with a group of nurses about residents. And they said, you know, and they were really, you know, quite mean to one resident differently from others. And I was like, Why? Why do you seem to be picking on this one, and she said, this is a group of nurses, it was hilarious to watch. Well, the residents that command that are humble, that are respectful, that are caring, we want to help them succeed, where the senior nurses, we know the business, they're learning. So we help them, we make sure that if we know this doctor does not like to be called at night, we say Don't call him is going to get mad at you. Let me help you. Right. If we know this doctor hates to be talked to before their coffee comes in, we say to the resident, be careful. Don't talk to them yet. They haven't had their coffee. And she said, But if the resident is one with a big head who thinks I'm the boss here, and I know everything, guess what we do alumina and I said, What do you do? Oh, we tell him called a doctor. If you're at night, and he has a question for call, this doctor asked a question. And she said, This doesn't happen because we're mean to them. We just won't save them from the obvious. Because they come in with this big head thinking. I ruled the world. I'm the boss here. I know better than you. So yes, attitude is everything. Yeah, come in with humility, with humanity with care and things might miraculously work for you.

Mohammad Anwar
Yeah. And I would actually ask, Why are those doctors getting upset for getting called to do their job? Secondly, their purpose is to save lives. And secondly, why are you upset before your coffee? Like, I would even go as far as, okay, the resident needs to learn the lesson. But also, why do we still have doctors who are on call and say, you know, don't call me after certain time or they get upset or need to have their coffee before they're not upset? That these nurses have to watch out for all of this and watch out for each other? And and how do you create an environment of safe safety for patients if you're afraid to call a doctor who has the keys to helping a patient that's to me is baffling. Right? So it almost seems like culture has even implications on the patient care. Because their very purpose of saving lives could be hurt if the culture of treating each other is not there. Because they might think I'm a I'm a doctor, I take care of patients. And the way I treat a nurse has no implication on patient care. I challenge that it absolutely does. Because if nurses are afraid to call you in times of emergency, because you yelled at them because you get pissed, then you're actually jeopardising the patient safety and patient care. So you're actually going against the very purpose if you don't take care of each other and show care and compassion and love and create an environment of respect where you can have those conversations and seek help from each other. So I mean, I just thought to segue into that because when I heard that I'm like that hurts.

Loubna Noureddin
And to be honest, it is reality. As much as we don't want it to I call them the culture sharks. I used to facilitate culture work from San Delaney, they're no longer in existence. But culture sharks can derail your change efforts beyond any imagination, right. And unfortunately, some of our best best physicians or nurses could be the culture sharks in their areas. I remember once working with a chief medical officer, a wonderful, wonderful human being by the name of Daisy, Coronado and very into a culture of humanity and care and purpose driven conversations in the organisation, wonderful human being. And I was coaching one of her physicians that is absolutely a terror at her in the organisation, and I went to her had a, you know, had lunch with this chief medical officer, and I asked her, I said, Why do you tolerate this person? What is it that makes you tolerate this person? You know, she's so mean, she's, she's a terror. She's so many, we've lost so many nurses because of her. And I just don't understand. And I came to her like, really asking for an answer, because it seems to be Miss aligned with the values were trying to create. And she looked at me and said, Loubna, if your child had a tumour in their brain, you want this doctor to be the one that looks at the X rays. She said, the only one in the area that does not miss the tumour that every single other physician misses. And she told me, sometimes the sacrifice comes because there's a bigger, bigger reason out there, you know, that has to do directly with, you know, our patient safety. So when she said, I had to sit back, sometimes we may miss those little cues, right? It's the best of them, could be the terror, the best surgeon could be the one creating the most toxic environment in the room, in the ER, and the balance between patient safety and culture safety, a safety culture becomes quite intertwined. And it really takes people from outside the organisation to work directly with those physicians to help them understand how their shadow of influence is broken. Because a shadow of fear does harm patient care? Right, and we have a lot of research out there, but helping them understand that they're the ones creating that shadow of safety, lack of safety in the organisation can take some, you know, profound commitment to helping that physician see the, the, their impact on the organisation. So, yes, sometimes administration may keep, you know, closed eyes on those people because of what they bring to the table. Yeah. Unfortunately,

Mohammad Anwar
it makes sense.

Jeff Ma
Loubna, I want to make sure we also have spend just a little bit time before we run out of it on, like, kind of solutions, I guess, what, what when we talk about creating lasting change? You know, you're an expert in change. We're talking about all these things happening, the great resignation, you're talking about in healthcare, healthcare is just all happening at once. And and you've we've highlighted in this conversation, some great examples and cases where, you know, change is hard and tied to culture, and we're struggling with it. But what is, in your opinion, the way out, like how do you create lasting change?

Loubna Noureddin
Great question, Jeff. And I told Mohamad, before that, I'm writing a book on change. And the book is based on my doctoral journey and eight years of research on sustaining change. And I found five factors, Jeff, that would really create a good healthy recipe for change. The model is in my book, so does the leadership competencies that go with it, but the five factors are very simple to uphold, if we have the right leadership in place. The first one is purpose driven company. realisations. Truly the leaders believe that they're communicating effectively with their teams. And I can assure you, if I go to any organisation right now, there's a misalignment between the perception of communication, and the real impact of communication and organisation. So the first one is hold purpose driven conversations with your team, get back to purpose, get back on track on humanity, what matters. Beyond that day to day, jobs and tasks and emails. The second one is tap into your middle managers, and the influential individual contributors, that could be a great catalyst for change. We expect the middle managers to do so much. But we have not truly spent the effort or time or resources to help them grow, and learn how to become true catalysts of change. So that's the second, you know, area for improvement, or where we can do work regarding change. The third one is culture. And we've talked about culture today enough, make sure that your culture truly promotes change. I listened to the CEO of Microsoft, talk about what's the one leadership characteristic that you want leaders to have when it comes to innovation, and creativity. And his response was empathy. Empathy was the number one leadership traits that he recommends. This is the CEO of Microsoft, saying empathy is the number one trait for innovation. So when it comes to culture, you want your culture to align with the change effort, if you want creativity, you better have empathy, you better have safety, you better have care, in the heart, and core of everything you do. The fourth one is, so we talked about three things right? The first one is purpose driven organisations. The conversations I apologise, the second one is the manager as a catalyst, that middle manager developing them to become, you know, providers of catalyst for the change. This third one is your culture. The fourth one is dialogue, open, transparent dialogue about what's working, what's not working, and allowing employees to share. Right, so not only over communicate, but also over communicate your listening. We talked about respect before, I think that's an area that is essential for change to sustain. Listen to what they're trying to tell you listen to what they're saying would work. So that change can sustain. I have seen too many, too many groups and teams pretend and say yes to change and don't do anything about it. Because they tell me what's the flavour of this month, next month, they'll find something new. That hurts the organisation beyond compare, because sometimes great ideas get shoved under the carpet. Why? Because you're not listening. So over communicate, you're listening is the fourth one. And the last one, and probably not the least. But the last one is providing coaching to the leaders to buy into the change, to influence the change. And to really hold the change as there's 50 to 70% of change initiatives fail. This is data from evidence based peer reviewed articles. In the tech industry. It's about 75% of failure for change. The reason behind it could be many things including culture, but the one that I know for sure that drives Failure to Launch in change, just like aeroplanes. You know, a pilot told me most aeroplanes crash during lunch, same thing for change. We lose the change at the very beginning. And that's because of lack of involvement of the right people in the change. Your bottom line needs to be part of the change. They cannot be ignored or just told about the change. They're buying in and they're commitment starts with them being involved before planning, the change happens before launch. Let them write your elevator speech for you. Let them be the one to create the vision for change. And it's a mess in organisations that I see again, again, you know, boards of organisations are supposed to create the vision help you see your potential without beyond what you see, they're not supposed to drive the change for you. Your people are supposed to drive the change. So those are the factors, the five factors that I include in my book. And hopefully, I'll get you a copy as soon as I have it. It's not there yet.

Jeff Ma
And sounds incredible. When when can we expect the book to be out

Loubna Noureddin
in March, march 2022. That's nice. So I'll make sure that you let you know when that happens,

Mohammad Anwar
for sure that you have a title for the book already, or you're still working? Yes.

Loubna Noureddin
You're ready. Yes. Let's go. The dignity effect. That's the title. And then the subtitle because dignifies like, what what are you saying? Five tools to reclaim the abandoned factor during change?

Jeff Ma
Wow. Provocative like it.

Mohammad Anwar
Yeah. Let's hope for the best. Good luck. I mean, I, I mean, I enjoyed everything I heard. So the book is anything like it. I think it'll be awesome. So

Loubna Noureddin
I hope so. I hope so. For sure.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, one of the things that I mean, these five things I actually wrote down while you're talking because I think these are so it's such compelling kind of ways to focus in on on really tactical ways to actually start anybody's journey in kind of making sure that change starts sticking and and you everything you said really resonated with me. Because these are things that I've personally faced struggles that I've seen happen flavour of the month, things like that. And also with people we've worked with such a consistent pattern, I think it's incredible that you've been able to pinpoint those and put so much kind of thought and research and kind of work behind them. So congratulations on that work and really incredible stuff. Thank you for sharing that. And that I really wish we had all the time in the world to dig into all that. But unfortunately, all good things must come to an end. But no, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing all this wisdom and all this experience in this lived experience with us. Thank you.

Loubna Noureddin
Thank you. Thank you for the time appreciate it. And keep sharing love to the world please. We need more of that. Yeah, absolutely.

Mohammad Anwar
That's we are definitely trying and we're hoping to get other people to join us and you know spreading love starting with a corporate workplace.

Loubna Noureddin
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Jeff Ma
Absolutely. And and to our listeners thank you as well for listening in. As always, we hope that you will leave feedback send us your thoughts subscribe and rate us on your your podcasts, applications but shameless plug for our book as well as always love as a business strategy available on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, etc, wherever you find books, so please do check us out. Be eagerly anticipating Lunas new book in March as well. And thank you for joining us, as always have.