Beth Ridley  
So I think the first thing is just getting leaders to internalize that they too are diverse if they never thought that they were diverse, and that starts to get them to see their personal engagement in this work in a way that is authentic, and I think the best way that they can start to lead by example.

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from, and we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm here to have those conversations and hear those stories from real people about real businesses in real life. And today, I have Beth Ridley, and she is a corporate executive turned Organizational Transformation consultant, speaker, author, and the CEO of Ridley Consulting Group. Beth combines 25 years of leadership and management consulting experience to simplify what it takes to integrate Diversity, Equity and Inclusion practices through the business with strategies that are approachable, relevant, and doable for everyone. Beth's work is featured in national publications, and she frequently delivers keynotes and workshops, workshops and events around the world. Beth holds a BA in English literature from the University of Virginia, an MA in international relations from Tufts University and an MBA from Columbia University. She's lived in London, Tokyo, Johannesburg, and Bangkok, and now resides in Milwaukee, Wisconsin with her husband and three kids. So that's the introduction. But here is the woman herself. Beth, really? How are you?

Beth Ridley  
I'm doing good. I'm so excited for this conversation. Thank you for having me on.

Jeff Ma  
So all the way to Bangkok. But now in Milwaukee,

Beth Ridley  
the good old, good old Midwest,

Jeff Ma  
I feel like there's a story that we'll dive into maybe down the road. Before we go any further, I want to start really centered around you and who you are. And the question is simple. What are you passionate about? And how did you arrive at that passion in your life?

Beth Ridley  
Well, I'm passionate about a lot of things. But from the vantage point of this conversation, I'm really passionate about helping people feel more confident being who they are at work. And for two reasons. One, my own professional experience, I always felt like I worked extra hard to fit in. And that can be super exhausting. And it's one of the reasons why I left corporate. But also now that I consult an organist with organizations all about workplace culture, and creating a thriving workplace culture, frankly, we need people to be unique, be themselves bring their unique perspectives to the table. So I'm starting to appreciate from a business standpoint, better decision making, that leads to better outcomes, we need our talent to be more themselves, and everybody sort of fit into a mold or like there's one way to be successful at work. So, you know, that's really what my consulting practice is all about. And I attack that in a lot of different ways. But that's the core of why I started my practice, I want to support both employees to be more confident bringing who they are to work that workplace needs that and support leaders who are interested in that. So they feel celebrated and elevated and to have the confidence to be true people, leaders to invest in people.

Jeff Ma  
I love it. And, you know, right off the bat, when you talk about people bringing who they are. I feel like a lot of people immediately face an existential kind of question here, like who am I? And we throw this around a lot, right? Like bringing your whole self to work or being yourself. How do you personally define what that looks like? Or feels like when you're able to bring who you are to the workplace? What does it mean?

Beth Ridley  
To me, it really comes down to sort of like just your personality, right? And that's a reflection of all your life experiences, where you grew up, how you grew up your your professional personal background, cultural influences, you know, the wrapper that we come in matters, my gender, my race, my age, all that stuff, but I feel like you know, sometimes, we're just sort of hesitant to bring our innate personalities to work. And a lot of times there might be a home, you know, there's a home bath, and a work bath, and we kind of like split the two. And again, that can be really exhausting. And then frankly, I think, you know, we are our best when we feel that sense of belonging, we are more confident, speaking up taking risks sharing Our thoughts and perspectives. So I really think it comes down to, you know, feeling that sense of belonging to be more our innate personality without feeling like, I have to be a different version of myself in order to succeed in the workplace.

Jeff Ma  
That makes sense. And I believe you had divided it just now into kind of two pieces that you're passionate about. But also I see it as two elements, right? There's the the individual ourselves coming to the workplace with with, with confidence to be themselves and bringing themselves so onus on the individual, and then there's the the, let's just say, the organization, but maybe more accurately the leaders or the leadership in an organization or how its structured, creating a space that is welcoming, and enabling belonging. So can I start with the organizational level? What, what is kind of the critical factor here that that you're talking about when you work and consult with a business or the leadership? Where should they start?

Beth Ridley  
Well, I think first of all, I usually start with helping them have a broad and inclusive definition of diversity. Because if they're interested in this work around diversity, equity inclusion, and for all the benefits and everything like that, I think that's a great opportunity for people to explore, you know, where maybe they haven't considered all those hidden dimensions of diversity, that really matter, right. So it really might be more someone's preferred communication style, you know, what they need to feel a sense of wellbeing, what they need to feel that their stress and anxiety is minimized. Those are all the things that are really hidden beneath the surface that, you know, you wouldn't necessarily know if you're only focused on those visible dimensions of diversity. Plus, when you do that, it gives leaders permission to say, You know what, even though I sort of look like everybody else around this leadership table, there are aspects about me where I feel like I've had to work a little extra hard to fit in, and they start to appreciate how they can be more lead, I guess, more authentically, and that sets the example for there are more styles and types of leadership than maybe people thought originally. And that starts to permeate down. So you get more people who could maybe see themselves in that role and aspire, as opposed to feeling like Well, I'm an introvert, everybody at the leadership table is an extrovert, I'm going to be overlooked, I would never never survive, or everybody's this type.

Jeff Ma  
I absolutely love that. I think that's so important what you just said, because that's not I don't think that's talked about enough. And I think the more something like di goes forward with this, this label of just, you know, this formal thing we do call di, it gets so lost. And I love what you just said there. I love bringing the people that are making these decisions into their own self awareness and their own introspection around that, because when we don't do that, right, it essentially starts them in a very polarized place where, where they are on the other side of the equation, and it's everyone else feeling minimized and hurt and they don't put themselves into any form of empathy.

Beth Ridley  
Yeah, it can be polarizing, it can then mean the work falls on the people or they think they benefit and there are certain people who don't feel like they would benefit from investing in this, in fact, they might feel threatened, it starts to show that everybody is, is, you know, part of, you know, everybody benefits from investing in a culture of belonging, therefore, everybody has some accountability and responsibility to contribute to it. You're correct, it makes it less polarizing, a little bit more all hands on deck. And I think it starts to personalize it, you know, even leaders who want to be on board with DEI unless they have a personal connection to the work, they might just pay attention to it in their discretionary time which no one has any even their best of intentions. But if you start to really personalize it and say, This isn't really about creating something that benefits people outside of myself, this is me this benefits me this is for me, as well as it's for everybody else, you just have a little bit more of a personal engagement with it. Love it.

Jeff Ma  
I'm going to jump right over to the other side though because I think there's a lot more time I want to spend today talking about knowing call it we can broaden it to like career development I guess because but but from what I think career development I'm I'm very curious for the listeners. When they find themselves wanting this and needing this and to be honest, maybe sometimes at the mercy, or the these, the feeling is that they're at the mercy of the system, they're in the leaders, they're under, what environment they're in. That's, I really would love to hear kind of where you start in that space, when it comes to really wanting to bring you want to bring your full self, you would love that. But it just doesn't feel either possible or safe or any of those things. Where do we begin there?

Beth Ridley  
Yeah, and I do a lot of I guess I would call them career empowerment workshops, especially for women and people of color who really struggle with, I think, sort of the trade off between fitting in and standing out. And so I guess I, there's sort of three things that I talked about. So the first is, you have to be good at your job. I mean, first and foremost, like, let's focus on that. So, you know, I'm not saying be yourself at work and myself is I'm actually not competent. That's actually not what I mean. So I mean, first and foremost, before we can start talking about all these other things, like, are you good at your job. So if not, like, focus on that, that's number one. Number two is develop trusting relationships. So invest in relationships with other people, because when people get to know you, and you're good at your job, obviously, you're going to have a broader bandwidth, to be able to express yourself, bring your particular sense of humor, or those ideas that maybe you had been thinking about, but were hesitant to share, if you sort of have those two things going for you. And then, you know, lastly, I really encourage people to again, just remember that, again, from a business perspective, diverse ideas leads to better decision making. So you are in fact helping the company when you ask your questions, because that's adding to the conversation. And I call them like little seeds of innovation, right? When you suggest something, when you pose something from a different vantage point, when you do something, maybe in a slightly different way, to just have a little bit of confidence that that is in fact, contributing, ultimately, to business outcomes. And so from my own personal experience, I do think, especially women and people of color, we have a little bit more rope to be more ourselves than I think we maybe think that we do. And as long as you're good at your job, and you're developing some trusting relationships, I think you can sort of test that bandwidth a little bit more.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely. And I think part of what comes to mind when I'm playing the scenario out for many people, is that everything you're saying makes sense. But there's this element of like Courage required. And there's a fear underlying why that doesn't already happen. Or maybe a stigma or some sort of, you know, personal perception or bias any of these things that float around us. So if I'm somebody sitting in an organization, and feeling like, let's just put it bluntly, this feeling like the leadership, let's just say, I feel like the leadership, my organization is just beyond saving, like, from the top at the top, it's just like, I know that they don't have the right kind of mindset that I would want to see. But they're at the very top. I'm an organization that has many other people beneath it, I mean, in an ecosystem of my own. How, how do I break through a little bit? How do I I know there's building relationships stuff, but I'm being held back, like where can I maybe tangibly break through maybe some active or tangible like pointers to start with for them?

Beth Ridley  
Oh, that's a that's an interesting one. So I will start maybe first with the with the courage piece. One thing I actually think it's really important, especially if we're talking about you know, like corporate America, there are many ways to make a living. And I think sometimes we lose our courage when we start to tell ourselves like this is the only way you can somehow have a little bit more courage. If you say if the worst case scenario has the worst case scenario I'm fired. So a lot of times like we're motivated to, you know, work hard to fit in so that we don't get fired. If you sort of at least start to put that in perspective. You will get another job. There are other ways to make a living that can certainly give you a little bit more courage because like the worst case scenario, I'll be the only person In the United States to never be employed again, is unlikely to happen. So that's sort of a strategy that I that I use for myself. But, you know, I think that it again, it comes down to do you have people in the organization who you admire, because you can see how they strike a better balance for themselves in terms of being respected, but still not, but still being a little bit more authentic. And I think I would sort of seek some guidance and counsel from those individuals, I definitely wouldn't want to send somebody off on the deep end, march into the CEOs office, I demand change. I'm just being realistic here. But I do think it's a journey, I think, as you get more experienced in your career, as you have more of a track record, as you, you know, have more credibility in your job, I think you can start to speak up a little bit more, a little bit more a little bit more. And probably the best thing that you can do is also lead by example, for other people. Because when people people just need examples of, there's more than one way to be successful here. And the more people start to start to embrace that being a little bit more authentic at work, it sort of catches fire, I'll just give you like a really tangible example, my last employer, I would say, skewed on the very sort of, like, conservative side, just in terms of, you know, I mean, really conservative, up until maybe 10 years ago, women had to wear pantyhose. I mean, it was like, it's very, like the dress, you know, sort of like very strict dress codes, was also sort of reflective of, there wasn't a lot of trust in terms of, you know, personality types that could be displayed at work. But one day, they just decided that they were going to move from business casual with a very, like long written policy on what that was to dress for your day. And once they said it was just for your day, it was unbelievable. How many people came to work with blue hair, with earrings with graphic tees, and you were like this person. And it became clear, we were all tired, we were all tired of fitting in or working, I guess I should say working a little extra hard to fit in. And when there became more permission with dress or became a little bit more permission with personality as well. And it made it a refreshing a much more thriving place to work. So I don't have like the perfect, you know, simple tip or strategy for your original question. Other than I think it probably only takes one or two, then two or three, then three or four people to sort of demonstrate because I think innately all of us have some aspect of Yeah, you know, I wish I could speak up more, or I wish I could wear my nose ring or whatever to work and still get the job done. I think that's the main thing. And really, I think the whole purpose of why we're talking about this is in my frankly, just you know, intuitively, when I'm not so worried about a little did I say the right thing, or what should I wear? Or can I do this? Should I do this? I have more mental capacity to just focus on doing my job. And the job is exhausting enough. I don't need that extra mind gymnastics that I think a lot of times, all of us all of us do. And I guarantee you from the tippy top down. So you know, I think, yeah, it's there's a little safety and numbers there.

Jeff Ma  
Well, speaking of that, maybe help me define in your terms. What's Love Got to do with it?

Beth Ridley  
I love that question. So I would say I think of love as a professional development strategy. Because I think when all of us can do what lights us up inside, we are at our best and we contribute our best and we give our best to the world and so everyone should strive to do that as much as possible. And I know that it's not always 100% I'm able to do everything that lights me up inside from the morning I wake up you know, to the time I go to bed, but I do think it's it's it's a great goal and a lot of that I think is you know a appreciating your strengths. And strengths aren't just what you're good at. But it's the things that you have energy around you look forward to doing when you're doing them, you lose track of time. And when you finish them you feel filled, fulfilled and not depleted. And the more that we can do what lights us up inside? I think we're just better at what we do. We exude positivity and enthusiasm, which we need more of that in the world and in the workplace. And I think that that is really sort of like the wind beneath a successful and sustainable career trajectory.

Jeff Ma  
Absolutely, yes. And I guess, can you paint for me, like the the behaviors that you consider this, whether you call it love, or light, or you know, what people are exuding when they when they get to that place? What are the behaviors you see from those people? And maybe those around them? Or the leaders around them? What are the things that you find consistently to be the important factors like tangible behaviors?

Beth Ridley  
Well, I think one underlying behavior that I see of people who really do sort of lead from a, what lights them up inside is self reflection. I think that's really important. Because I think a lot of times we sort of get on the, the work treadmill, and we just sort of lose sight of what we're doing and why, how we got here, and oh, you know, did I even intend for this to happen? Or how did I get here? And this is not what I wanted. But I think that people who are truly self reflected and are always sort of staying in touch with what am I doing? does it align with my overall career values? You know, again, am I feeling a sense of, you know, fulfillment versus depletion, we're just not good with other people when we feel depleted. So a lot of that requires just self reflection, and that constant sort of shifting and, and adapting, I think, in order to get to more of what lights you up inside, so self reflection, I think, is the underlying characteristic. And then the other things like how I know that someone is more, you know, leading their career with, with love as a strategy, you know, they are, they just have more capacity to pay attention to other people, as opposed to worrying so much about themselves that they're not present, or they're short with other people. I definitely noticed those people who, when, when you're in their presence, and you feel like you are the most important person in their presence that really takes someone who feels fulfilled and satisfied with themselves to be able to redirect that energy towards others. So to me, that's always a really hallmark of those people who are just those people who bring people in, through their energy, but also through their ability to have room and space and presence around other people. I think that the root of it, it's love as their own personal career strategy.

Jeff Ma  
So if, if I'm looking to develop my career, in this way, I guess there's this, this, it almost goes back to my example earlier, if if I'm in an environment, I know that one option is to find a better environment, if it's not what you want it to be. But it's also this sense of is also this sense of are people ever victims, I would say in their own like, like to elaborate it's more like I'm not saying that they're not truly victims in many circumstances, and there are obviously bad leaders out there. But I've also in my experience, seen people who have had bad experiences and have had painted the world in a certain way that prevents them from seeing realities about themselves realities about the their their onus  in the equation. And I found that that can hold people back as well in terms of wanting to be themselves but feeling like they are oppressed and all these other things and there's there's a slightly different reality or sometimes a drastic different reality to what others perceive others intend and other things like that.

Beth Ridley  
Yeah, and this is why I feel like leadership. It's so important and investing in people leadership is so important because a bad people leader can be really psychologically damaging. And I like to say bad people leaders really have no business being around people. They should be cutting hair, because hair grows back if damaged, you know what I mean? And what's really interesting to your point, like, for example, there's so many people that I've known at work who are just difficult to work with miserable to work with definitely not people who are leading with, you know, love as a as a professional strategy. But yet outside of work, they're quite lovely. So sometimes something happens in the workplace. And I think really, it just sort of trickles down from the top, you're not inspired to be your best if the person that you're reporting to doesn't inspire you to be your best. And I've been in those situations where it's like, why am I trying so hard? I'm just gonna do the barest minimum to get by. And it it quickly is a domino effect, to me. And because I consult on workplace culture transformation, honestly, it is so surprising how a little bit of change of behavior at the top can set things in such a fast direction for the positive, or, frankly, for the worse. Because leaders are really setting the tone and it starts to trickle down, and inspiring leader at the top, who really inspires other leaders beneath this person, to be their best to invest in people leadership. People rise to the occasion. But you know, people will also work to the lowest level common denominator, if given the opportunity to I think people are naturally very efficient with our time. If we feel that somehow we're going to be rewarded and fulfilled by putting in that extra discretionary effort, we'll do it. But do we feel like what difference does it make? We won't?

Jeff Ma  
I know in your story, you you left, I guess the the work force or like the corporate world, to set off on your own you I think you alluded to how it being partially because of what you've seen or experienced. Up to that point. Is there? Is there salvation beyond all this? Because Because, in a sense, you took being I'm being silly, but you took the easy way out? You know, there's there's still businesses I'm kidding, I know what you're doing is not easy. But we still have businesses all over the world who, who need a revolution needed change. I'm of the I'm of the thinking that we are arriving, at least the beginning of maybe a very long revolution in in the work since the pandemic and all these things and what we're seeing in quiet quitting all these other terms that are coming out, but but that it seems like a long journey ahead. And it seems like there's still the book is not yet written. But what what are you what is your prophecy when it comes to? Because we can't, there's there's still just always going to be business, there's always going to be leaders are still, at least in the mid to long term that we can see ahead. Yeah, a lot of that's not changing. But if we want to see change, we got to be changed. So what does that look like?

Beth Ridley  
Yeah, well, and you know, what, I, I agree with you, in some regards, I think I did take the easy way out, my husband is still in corporate, and just you know, because it's it's I have different challenges. But they're energizing challenges to try to figure out sometimes the challenge that corporate can truly be draining and deflating, because there are a lot of dislike navigating a lot of personalities and things like that. So. So this is gonna sound super cliche. But I guess it's cliche, because there's some truth to it. Well, so progress is never super number as fast as we want it to be. And it's never, you know, a straight shot up and down, it's sort of up and down, up and down. But like the stock market, like, overall, the trajectory is up. I mean, just look at the workplace is from over the past, you know, 10 decades. It I mean, it was, you know, I don't know, if you just think go back to sort of like the madmen era that was overruled their own definition of like, what it took to be successful in corporate and, I mean, that's broader and broader and broader and broader. So the cliche part is, though, I think that the next generation, the Gen Z years, and I can say that, because I got three of them as kids, and I see how they act, when I see how they interact with each other. And I do think that generation is the lastish generation that is, is still wants to put people in their boxes, you know, I'm Gen X. And so I think when I think of diversity, it's men and women. It's black or white, you know what I mean? It's very, but that generation, they're much more comfortable, I think, with the intersectionality of differences, less beholden to titles, and I'm just gonna give you like a quick example of that. So you know, my kids have friends from like, all over, and the first thing I'll ask is like, Oh, where do they go to school? And they'll be like, I don't know. I'm like, how do you not know that like, like, like, that's the most basic thing thing that I would want to know. Because once I know where you go to school, I can put you in that box, right. And so the same thing, they don't put people in boxes, you know, gender identity is a lot more fluid, race and ethnicity is a lot more fluid. And so I think they bring that into the workplace. I'll give you one more example from my own kids who are entering work. And I see the attitude that they bring one, they're a lot more brazen, in terms of asking for what they want, and being like, Oh, I'm not gonna get it here by I think it's, they have more of an entrepreneurial mindset. And the gig economy gives them a certain, like, Plan B, there's always Uber until you find something else. Sure. So that gives someone a little bit of competence. But then so for example, my son, African American, he has twists, right. And so again, when I entered the workforce, you could not get an interview, you could not get an interview with twists, or it's something that looked like dread dreads in your hair in in financial services. It's you can not like what are you thinking? But he didn't think anything of it, went got an interview as an internship at Morgan Stanley, in New York City with these. And I'm still trying to figure out how did that happen. And so they just are, I hate to say we're counting on the next generation, because that's such a cop out. And it's not fair to them. But I think they, they, they're so brazen, they don't care. And I don't even think they know what they're doing. And I find that my clients make the biggest names in their cultural belonging and DEI work when the summer interns come, because everybody's trying to make the summer interns happy. And they're like, I need that I need that I need that. And then they leave. And then they're like, well, now we have all this, we're gonna use it.

Jeff Ma  
That that's amazing. It's it's funny, because I'm obviously talking about this stuff all the time. And the generational conversation always comes up. Because what like, it's, no matter what you're talking about, there is this factor in the shifting of times, and the changing of the guard. And, you know, the future CEOs are going to be, you know, the youth of today. And it'd be foolish to disregard that as just, you know, generational stereotypes and tropes, because there's a truth to what we are learning as an as a as a human, you know, civilization.

Beth Ridley  
But one thing, if I might add, I think one thing that worries me is as more people are just going to be more of themselves and bring more diversity naturally into the workplace. One thing I think that we're not good at, and we're not practicing it as a country in the United States is the ability to have dialogue across differences, to reach some understanding, like, we just can't. And so all these things are going to bump up against one another in the workplace. Two quick examples, you talked about different generations, you know, the younger generation, they're very comfortable with, like pronouns and gender identity, and you know, they'll talk about it at work, like, This is who I am. And then the older generation, like, I don't want to know, I don't even want it like, I don't tell me like, why must we talk about this? Like, I you know what I mean? So the inability to have those conversations, and, you know, worries me, I don't know, I don't know what we're gonna do about that. And then another, like, really tangible example, that literally just came up yesterday with the client. Some, the HR department got a call from an employee saying, another employee has a Communist Manifesto, the book communist manifesto on their bookshelf in their cubie , it makes them uncomfortable. He was like, what do we do? And I was like, I wouldn't start policing that if I were you. Can they talk? Can they talk? And apparently they can't. So I think that's, that's something that we really have to pay attention to, we are going to have to be able to resolve our own conflicts as more of them into the workplace as as the breadth of what we see in the workplace expands.

Jeff Ma  
That's very good point. Very, very, very good point. I'm thinking of all these examples in my head popping up right now, that exact thing. But Beth, it looks like we're out of time. But this was an awesome conversation. I think that these this this food for thought along the way as we all tried to find the best version of ourselves that we can bring into a workplace is just a crucial conversation that we should all be having and continued having. So I really appreciate you coming and bring your perspective on it and bringing kind of all your experience It's a knowledge about it. I really appreciate that.

Beth Ridley  
Well, thanks. This was a fun conversation and I really appreciate your very unique and inspiring angle to these conversations. I think we need a lot of different perspectives and you bring a unique and refreshing one.

Jeff Ma  
 I appreciate that. And I also appreciate our listeners to really who it's all for, you know, we want to make sure you you're always getting different perspectives such as Beth's when you get to listen in so appreciate your support. Hope you're checking out the other episodes, the book, Love as a business strategy and hope you're subscribing and doing all those things, giving us that feedback that we just love. So with that, hope everyone has a wonderful week and we will catch you all next time.