Jeff Ma
This episode is a little different. Chris has a reunion with one of his old bosses. Rod Jimenez, who is the CEO of SHR. Rod was someone who showed Chris early in his career, what love as a business strategy could look like. And we have a great time walking down memory lane between the two of them. We also, however, talk about the tougher side of love, and we discuss Chris's exit from the company, and the impression that he left on him. Enjoy the show.

Hello, welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk business, we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from, we believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I am your host, Jeff Ma. And I'm joined today by my co host and co author, Chris Pitre. Hey, Chris, how is it going?

Chris Pitre
Hey, Jeff, hey, listeners, or watchers.

Jeff Ma
Chris each episode, as you know, we dive into one element of business strategy, or meeting interesting person, etc, etc. And we always like to test our theory of love against it. And today, we have a very special guest someone who's special to you specifically. So I'm actually going to let you introduce our guest today, Chris.

Chris Pitre
Yes, no, it is. Without further ado that I want to welcome Rod Jiminez. He is the CEO of SHR. So they are a technology provider for the hotel industry. And they focus really on the revenue generation side of that technology stack. So I actually used to work for Rod years ago, earlier in my career. So I got to know him personally and professionally followed his leadership. And he was actually one of the first leaders that showed me what it means to really practice love as a business strategy. There was never a single day, I would walk into the office where we weren't embracing a culture of love, enjoyment, you know, tough love feedback, laughter, you know, all the things. And it was such a great environment to have early in my career. And it really set the tone for my belief system and how I operate when it comes to my everyday. So I am so happy to be talking here with Rod. I've missed him greatly. But I'm happy to have him as a guest. I'm can't wait for him to share some of his learnings, but also his philosophies on things. Because, again, he set the tone for me. And so hopefully, our listeners get a chance to listen and learn more about you know, things that they can do in their businesses, regardless of what industries they operate in.

Jeff Ma
Welcome to the show Rod

Rod Jimenez
Great, thanks. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to the discussion. And I, I really should also congratulate you guys on on your book, I'm enjoying it. And it's good to see Chris and how he's all grown out now. He was barely a kid. So that makes me an old man.

Chris Pitre
Oh, it makes you young at heart. But I think I think our audience should know that we had a very special relationship at SHR Because one of the things that I was really known for in the office was planning elaborate jokes and pranks on people. And Rod would help me in executing these pranks. And these joke's on our, our, you know, unsuspecting team members, but it was all out of a place of love. But it made every day in the office, especially birthdays, some of the most fun days because we went all out when it came to helping people feel special, or not insulted on their birthday, depending on how you look at it. But we had so much fun, and it was just, you know, always great to have a leader who was willing to, to go there with you, and then have the team sort of like, just have barrels of laughs afterwards. So it was fun.

Rod Jimenez
Yeah, it I mean, the interesting thing is that some of those things last for a long time, they become memories, and for a company when we when we talk about and I'm sure we'll get into it, and and, and you guys talk about that in your book about what culture is, right. And so it's this whole that that's, that's part of the collection of, of memories that become part of the, the the history of the company and would get passed on and so somebody new comes in, and I think even to this day, there are folks that are still with us that were there when you were there. And occasionally that comes up, you know, it's like, oh, my hand does, you know, elaborate A birthday, you know, celebrations or elaborate jokes, like you said, and that they become part of the culture of the company. And and they really, it just I think one of the key things in that is that they also provide the ability to get to know people, right? I mean, because if you're going to do that, you need to know what makes them tick, you need to know what the limits are, you need to know what they're into, you need to know what they like. And so it's in an indirect way, it gives you a really interesting window into somebody's life, if you're going to, if you're going to create something, if you're gonna if you're going to go out of their way to create something really funny or really impactful, right?

Chris Pitre
It takes me back. So there was one specific, I guess, guy, Adam, he was new to Twitter. And he was like posting about like buying some snake boots. In my head, I thought snakeskin boots. And so I you know, I can't, I was like, I didn't realize you were that into fashion. Like that's interesting that you got some snakeskin boots. And he was like, What are you talking about? Like he posts that you bought some snake boots. And he's like, I'm talking about going hunting snake boots. And I was like, Oh, well, I thought you I thought you meant snakeskin boots. So for his birthday, I bought a fabric of fabric sheet of fabric of snakeskin. And we hung it all around his office, like sort of had all these snake skin accessories. And it was just, you know, this explosion of snake skin. And that was really hilarious. And then I think Anatoly his birthday, he had this, there was this wrapper with his last name that was like moded on MySpace at the time. And you know, everybody used to tease him about being sort of this low key wrapper that nobody knew about. So on his birthday, we had this album release party. And because he was a developer, the album had songs that related to development that were sort of retitled from pop songs. So we like did all these crazy things. And we would like playing all these elaborate things to make sure that they felt special. Other was connected to an inside joke that was based off of shade a little bit.

Rod Jimenez
Yeah, some of those, I forgot about those. I mean, some of those you needed to know, if you just sort of got there that day. You couldn't get it right you need you needed to be part of it. And you need needed to understand sort of the, the the little pieces underneath the very elaborate celebration, to call it that. Yeah, hearing

Jeff Ma
the stories recollected already, because the vibe of just like a really close kind of family get togethers and things like that those kind of familial kind of engaged engagements and relationships. And that's exciting. I really wanted to spend this episode actually doing two things I wanted to talk about, Rod you in the business and kind of, of course, the culture around the business and your philosophy around that. And then, you know, it's kind of a show about Chris as well. I think this is an opportunity to dig more into what you guys are talking about here and really uncovering for the audience. What it is that made it special for you, Chris, and kind of what that what that looks like carrying forward. So those are like the two main things I want to talk about today. And we jumped into it so fast, I almost forgot to do what we always do, which is all right breakers. I feel like I feel like the ice is broken. But I'm not going to bring tradition today. So we're gonna go into a quick icebreaker Chris, I'm gonna go first. And Roger had the same question. Chris, what's your favorite meal to cook and why?

Chris Pitre
So, some people might believe it's gumbo. But that's even though I'm great at cooking it. It's not my favorite thing to cook. My favorite thing to cook is something that's fast. So love scrambling eggs. Because eggs are the thing that I can eat at any time of the day, any day of the week forever for the rest of my life, as long as they're cooked to perfection, and so many people who have traveled with me where we've had kitchens or access to kitchens knows that when I scrambled eggs, it's this perfect every time because my grandfather taught me

Jeff Ma
that's my second guess. I guess gumbo. Rod same question. Wow.

What's your favorite meal cook?

Rod Jimenez
That's interesting. Chris i i consider myself a very good scramble, scrambled egg cook so we have to put that to the test. But oh, as far as as far as me like right now my favorite thing to cook is pork tenderloins on the Big Green Egg. I mean Big Green Egg fan and so right now that's my favorite thing to throw in there. And it's so easy and it you know it always makes me look good. Can I do I'd really do very little to it just is just making sure the temperature is right. And the timing is right. And then it just comes out perfect.

Chris Pitre
Nice. So I'm always afraid of the big green egg users because it feels like a cold sometimes when it's when they talk about not wanting to question or dig into anything that might have you think that I'm coming after the Big Green Egg. I've only heard great things. And typically someone's trying to get me to buy it off of that one conversation or that inquiry. Yeah. But I'm glad that you have perfected pork tenderloins on it.

Jeff Ma
Oh, man, okay. I'm gonna kick it off on that first thing I was talking about Rama bring, I'm gonna reel us back a little bit. I really want to hear Rod just tell me about you, you know, at a high level, your your passion, and then bring that into SHR. Tell us about SHR as well.

Rod Jimenez
Um, yeah, so let's see. So I, in my background, it's interesting in the sense that, you know, I didn't grow up in in the US, I grew up in Colombia and in South America. I lived there until I was 18. Came here to go to school. But, you know, married a native Houstonian. And so when you marry a Texan you stay in Texas for the rest of your life. And so I now have lived here longer than then I lived in Colombia. So it's kind of an interesting thing. And, you know, my kids grew up here we, we, we don't go very often and have a lot of family. But but when you spend 18 years in your life there, there are things there that shape, you, you know, forever, right. And so there are things in that culture that that are great in that it has to do with relationships and the importance of that. And so I, I am a a Christian. And so that also is yet another aspect of my life that puts relationships at the center of of life, and how that then translates into leadership. And early on, you know, I started my career in banking. And so very much sort of driven by it mentality of, okay, how quickly can I ascend? How much money can I make? And sort of that being the primary focus of things, things worked out in a very interesting way. And, you know, a very good friend mind of mine, Jim Whitney had started a company. And then I was I was, as I mentioned, I was working for a bank, he had left NASA to start a company that he called web advertising. And so we were in touch about everything that was going on there. And at one point, we decided that the company needed some funding, and I was going to help with that. And then that turned into me joining the company full time and investing in it. And so that really, all of a sudden, gave me a whole new opportunity to do things in a very different way. Right. All of a sudden, we I went from not worrying about just about anybody else, but me to to realizing that wow, whether or not we're able to issue paychecks to the folks that we had in this very small team at the beginning of of the process. And it was it was actually Jim with the myself and my brother in law there, Cameron. And so we had this very I would call it I mean, how I wasn't even 30 years old, I think when or maybe maybe just 30. Somewhere around there. And and so so in a way you could call us idealistic, right. And so we we had this vision from the very beginning of creating a place where things would go beyond just His prophets, and that, that it would be a place where people could relate to each other and grow together and where politics would not be present and all of that. And, you know, that's nearly impossible. But because we're all humans, right, and we, and we have flaws, and those come through when tension when tensions get high, but but it was a good aspirational thing. And so that that was my, my sort of very early leadership development Crash Course. Right? And it's like having to say, Okay, how, how are we going to lead? How are we going to achieve what we want to achieve from a business point of view, but at the same time, not sort of only making it about making a living, right that every you know, hey, I know this about making a living, but it's also making a life and not forgetting that. So very early on, I started thinking about leadership from the perspective of servant leadership. And Ken Blanchard is one of my favorite authors on that topic. And I remember going to an EO conference, way back in the day, probably right around the time, Chris, when, when you came in, because I remember Chris Schilling, right was the, the guy that introduced this. And I think he was part of EO at that time also. And so I remember going to that conference in and Ken Blanchard was the speaker, and he did this huge presentation about servant servant leadership, and I was just taking crazy notes. And it was the first time we did it, I really understood what was meant by that, right. And a lot of people think about that, and it's like, oh, that's touchy feely, soft, non accountable, you know, that kind of thing. And it's really, the thing is that you've got the traditional sort of pyramid of hierarchy in an organization. And that is still the case in servant leadership, when it comes to the vision, you've got to be somebody has to be a visionary, somebody has to cast that vision, somebody has to have the, the, the ability to communicate it and create passion in a team for that vision. But once that is out there, once that there is one, once there is conviction about it, that pyramid can flip upside down. And then that leader now needs to be focused on allowing everybody else in the organization to do what they are good at, and what they are able to do when they're self managed, self initiating, and, and free to do the things that you hire people to do, as opposed to micromanage over direct and sort of helicopter, everything right. So at that point, your job switches from that top down vision caster to a bottoms up, how can I help? How, what obstacles do I remove? What do I give encouragement? Where Where do I give guidance? So So guidance? Yes, training. Yes. Advice, yes. Management, if you're hiring the right people, and you're empowering them the right way. You don't have to do a lot of "management", right. And so that's, that's how we started doing things. So, again, probably around the time that that, that Chris became part of whiteboard Lab, which is sort of the setting for for our company. After after we went through we ended up selling the primary application that that wetvertising had created. And then you know, then after going to the acquire it for a while, we sort of regrouped and created whiteboard labs, and that's around the time that Chris was with us. And and we were actually in the process of building that that new application and to re enter the market After a non compete, and so so it was a very tense period of time. We, we were startup, we, we were launching a brand new product. And we were sort of building our own runway, with the revenue that we were getting from just doing projects. For other people, while in parallel, we were building this application that we were going to own and we were going to launch to market. So it was a, it's a very high tension period in in our history. But I think that that's sort of what allowed is that, that, that philosophy, and that approach to management is what allowed us to go through, you know, all of those sort of ups and downs, which, you know, tend to be sort of the normal history. It's an emotional roller coaster over time. And so if you derive your worth, and your self esteem, out of how a day goes, you're going to go crazy, right? So you've got to have something anchoring you that's, that's outside of what others think of you or what a client thinks of your product, or what an investor thinks about your pitch. And so I think that provided that stability that allowed us to keep going and keep pushing, and then the kinds of things that that Chris was talking at the beginning, that, that that ability to laugh, and not take yourself seriously or too seriously. And, and really creating, in, in, in learning about each other, you're creating the ability, or you're getting passport to say, Hey, dude, you need to you need to do the right thing here. And I'm, I'm, I'm going to feel in power, or with the freedom to do that, even when it's uncomfortable, because there is safety in the fact that a we've gone through a lot together and B, we know that ultimately, we're we're pulling in the same direction, and we want the same ultimate outcomes. And I respect you and I appreciate you as a person, that doesn't mean that I can, that I cannot disagree with you professionally, or that I cannot say hey, you committed to this, and you didn't deliver on that commitment. And, you know, again, the right people, when you have the right people, you have people that are obsessed with not missing their commitments, and so they, they're, they're also then very careful with what they commit to because you have to be able to deliver on that. So anyway, that long answer, but that's, that's sort of the the, the, the early part of my career and how that approach to, to, to management and relationships in the workplace, kind of how it came about. It came about of, you know, out of necessity of saying, you know, how do we do this? How do we how do we keep saying, how do we keep people, you know, passionate about what we're trying to do? And, and how do we create something that is lasting?

Chris Pitre
No. And I remember, because I started as a contractor for whiteboard labs. So I was like a freelance copywriter. Yes, I was a copywriter back in the day. And I remember thank you for the compliments. There's a lot to learn about my ability, so I'm not going to stop. But I remember because we I, I had actually just gotten laid off. And so I started to do contract work and Rod was one of the early clients. And then like literally within I think three months of working together you guys and asked me to join and you know, the rest is history. But I remember like always enjoying going into the office because it was always this like high energy. And then when I started it was sort of this is where Jeff Jeff knows my onboarding experiences softly this was where my expectations have been set for onboarding because when I walked in my laptop was there my business cards or had already been ordered and were sitting at my desk like it was like they knew and were ready for me on my first day and you know, they set up all these trainings for me and all these conversations and I was like, Thank you like, I'm not that awkward person that's walking around trying to ask people where to go or what to do or you know You know, etc. And so there's a joke at softly because we, if you read the book, I didn't have the best onboarding experience. But it's because I had my expectations set, I whiteboard labs, and I rarely share that with the Softway team. Because I don't want them to feel like they were operating at a deficit. But you know, that was sort of the, the benchmark that I had, and the pedestal that I had around first day experiences. So that's where all the things that we do at Softway originated from is actually the way that I was treated my first day of whiteboard.

Rod Jimenez
Yeah, and you got there when we had already figured that out. Right. We definitely have some folks that would say, I walked in, and, you know, my supervisor was in there, right. And so we had some of those experiences, where it's like, yeah, we didn't know who you are. And so then, then we really, we really, that in particular, very early on, and we do it today, it is taking the onboarding super seriously, even even, if possible, having the business cards already printed. You know, T shirts, you know, mugs, you know, your your desk, set up your computer set up, and, and more than anything, so that when you show up, the person that you're going to work with, and your team are there that we right, I mean, we we made the mistake with with a person that we hire that literally the entire team was traveling. And so we we made, we we sort of picked this starting date, and then they showed up and there was like, their entire team was in there. And so, so you imagine spending your first day at work, you have all of these expectations. And, and, and you don't you come home to let's say you're married to your wife, or to your husband, and they say how was it? You go? It was awful. You know, that's, that's just that was just the nightmare that started playing in our head. So we actually even for a while we don't do this anymore. I don't know exactly why but but for a while we, if the person was married, or or, and we knew about it, then we would send flowers to their wife, you know, and and say this is this is really we know that Joe or whoever is, is that this was a big decision. And we assume he didn't take this decision alone. So we appreciate the trust that you're, you know, giving us by supporting your husband, your wife, whoever in coming to work for us. So So first days are huge. And it's sort of, you know, in those moments of truth in, in your history with a company, I think they rank way up there, right? If you if you if you want somebody to go home, and again, the person that's there when they get home, it's like, wow, how was it? If they go, it was amazing, you know, it, that that? That's, that's the goal, right? When they go it's like, I'm blown away? I'm, I'm so excited. This is this was the right decision. And so, you know, super, super, super important. We know, we probably and it's it's very easy to to ignore or sort of like take for granted and just do it, you know, in? Oh, yeah, just as long as they show up. And they know what you said in fine. You know, I think it's, it's a it's a big deal.

Chris Pitre
Yeah. And I think, you know, speaking on that topic, I think the first day is a really critical day, but also the last day is a critical day. And when you think about love as a business strategy, typically, most people assume that we're only talking about the highlights the positive moments, the great things that happen, and rarely do we you know, talk about sort of the the tough side of sort of an employee lifecycle, which is the last day of employment. And I'm sure everyone has figured out I am no longer at SHR. Right. So let's talk about it because I want to address sort of an honesty about having to leave an excellent organization, especially when it's not your choice as an employee. And, you know, for those that are listening, Rod was the person who had to communicate to me that I was going to be sort of ending my time with whiteboard labs. And it was due to financial pressures. So this was, again, the economic downturn of 2008 2009 in that timeframe. And, you know, Rod had to make some tough calls and tough decisions before that he had done everything possible and communicated that, to prevent that, and I'm going to tell the story that you can chime in, right, I'm going to, I'm going to speak for you a little bit so that listeners can sort of understand my perspective. And, and what I saw happen. And so prior to that day, months before that day, we were shared with, like Rob came and shared, the financials of the organization said, it is not looking good. You guys like this is not a pretty picture. But I will be transparent throughout this process. You know, and as a part of that, we had to make some tough calls. So rather than, you know, just immediate start letting people go, we're going to start implementing pay cuts. And we're going to cut back on our contribution to, you know, health insurance, because I think everybody was covered 100%, before the financial crisis hit. And we had to make that call to sort of reduce that. And that meant that not only were people getting a pay cut from their actual base pay, but they were also having to pay for part of their insurance coverage. Right. And so that was a town hall meeting. And we all got there, right. And it was a sobering moment. But it was one where we say, you know, what, we're going to make the best of the situation, we're still going to be positive, we're still going to face these headwinds, and we're going to come out strong, right. So it was great conversation, great meeting, and we go forward, right, couple of weeks later, things still aren't improving. But Rod is I'm sure behind the scenes. Again, I wasn't a part of leadership at at that time. So I'm sure that there were a lot of conversations and a lot more sacrifices that weren't revealed to us. But now being in that seat, I can tell you definitely there were but gets the place four months later, you know, he invites me to Starbucks, right? And I'm like, okay, that's, that's interesting, right. And I think I think I was like, Rod what are we meeting at Starbucks for? And also, I should say, in this time frame, a crazy hurricane hit Houston and tore up our office that was on the fifth the top floor of a building, which typically, you would expect flooding but or tornado touched down and sort of toolbar roofing flooded our space. So we were without an office, as well as facing sort of economic pressures and financial pressures. So everything that could go wrong went wrong. Right? Like, it was a crazy year. But anyway, fast forward to this invitation to Starbucks. And, you know, beforehand, I was I, I've always been taught, like, don't just walk up into a meeting and not know what it's about. So I was like, what are we talking about at Starbucks? You know, I'm ready. Yet to like right back, like, unfortunately, it's not good news. But I wanted to talk to you in person, if something that affects, we get to Starbucks, and you know, we sit down and, you know, Rod starts crying. And he explains the situation, and that he's done everything he can. And, you know, this was a tough conversation for him to have and a tough decision to make. But unfortunately, he had to let me go. So you can just give me a two week heads up. And he said, I want to be here for you. I want you to go and start looking for a job while you're still employed with me. And I want to be the first reference that you give them in case they need that for your consideration. And so that was what we sort of agreed to. And then he let me decide, do you want to go back to the team? Do you like you get to sort of tell me how you want to operate on this. And I decided that I still wanted to be around the team for the last remaining weeks, even though I was going to be in and out for interviews. And so that was how we sort of arranged it. And then from there, I was able to go sort of say bye to the team but still sort of end on that positive note. We were jokesters, right. So we were still cracking jokes. We were like, everything that we did prior to that conversation remained until the very last day of my employment. And even to this day, if I were to go and hang out with Sally, Hey, Sally, hopefully she listens to this. Is Sally still there with SHR but, you know, can still go back and pick up right where we left off can still have those conversations can still reminisce. But I think it's really important that when we talk about love as a business strategy, it is not take us away from tough decisions. It does not mean that you do not have situations that require some really hard and difficult exits. And it doesn't mean that you that I think you you have to sort of operate outside of the culture that you built even in those environments. I think some some organizations still you have to become stiffer. You have To become sort of rigid and compliant, and all of these other things that take that already difficult conversation and difficult experience into a place of inhumane, sort of being inhumane, or being so corporate and cold, that all of a sudden, it just comes across as sort of this, you know, what we're doing for the past few years, like we're now playing a corporate. So I just wanted to sort of bring that out, because this is a rarely discussed topic in general, but especially in the context of something so positive, like love as a business strategy, dealing with that sort of side of it. But I want to talk to you rod about, like, what has been your approach when it comes to the exit side of this, you know, sort of strategy, but also, I'm pretty sure there's been more exits than just me, since you know, I've left, but I'm pretty sure that there are learnings that happen every single time.

Rod Jimenez
Yeah, and that is one of the toughest, toughest things to do. And I mean, I still remember having that conversation. And, you know, I always considered your work of tremendous quality. It was a position we needed. You know, you were our marketing everything, right? I mean, so you were our marketing department back then. And so and I remember going back to to, as you as you related that I can picture in my head, that conference room where we were in a borrowed office Bernsen. And in, I remember that our rationale was, well, how do we how do we deal with this, as you said, 2008 financial crisis than I kits, then we're losing our projects that we're paying for our runway, we had commitments to deliver this new application we were building, then our building gets hit, our servers get wet, because you know, the roof comes off, we still have a T shirt hanging in our office that says, We survived 2009. And it's full of all of the things that happened during that year that were all bad. Web servers out, no office, financial crisis, you know, all it's full of, you know, all the things that happened in we gave that to our staff during our first staff meeting of 2010. But when when things get really difficult, we initially we said like, like Chris mentioned, you know, what else can we do before we lay anybody off? And the guiding framework was, well, what do we, what do we go by? And we said, well, you know, what about our values? Right? And so our values, our stated values were, continue to be Integrity, service, teamwork, in creativity and resourcefulness. Right? And so, so we said, well, let's, what if, not that we always did this, but we will continue having integrity and transparency in terms of saying, here's where we are, these are, these are the numbers. And I think when we had that meeting, we had like, three months of runway, right? So something had to happen. And, and so and then we said, Well, what about teamwork, right? I mean, we could do this as a team. So then depending on where you were in the organization, your salary cut was high higher than then the rest of the organization and all that and so. And so, so we said, okay, that's how we're gonna guide what we're going to do. And then things just kept getting worse and worse until we were like, okay, you know, there is there is no other way here. We, we've got to we've got to let some folks go and hope that we can hire them back. And so it wasn't a situation where, you know, there was redundancy, or we didn't, we didn't need that function anymore. It was a purely, you know, out of need type of decision. And so, but the, the important thing was, like you said, Chris is, you know, out of integrity. It's like, do we behave differently now that things are hard? And, you know, that was an that was Tough, tough conversation. And, you know, every time I've had a conversation like that has been very, very difficult, we we went through recently, through a round of layoffs as a result of COVID. You know, being in the hotel industry, our clients, we're closing, we, to give you an idea, our revenues in April of 2020, were almost went down almost 10%, of what April of 2019 had been, you know, obviously, you know, different scale we had, you know, it much healthy, it much healthier cushion, and all that. But even with all of that, when you look at that type of revenue reduction, you know, that you've got to do something very proactively, or it's going to be even worse, right. And so, so, I think we, we approach things the same. Again, I, you know, I thought it was never gonna happen again. But but here we were, and we said, well, we've done this before, here's, here's the blueprint. And so we, we use transparency, and, and integrity and communications, we share the pain, and and then we worked as a team to come up with, you know, what are the things can we do to reduce costs to increase revenue, and they were, you know, all kinds of ideas coming in, in terms of, well, we could, we could pivot and start doing this or that, and, and so anyway, bottom line is, we had to, we had to do that, and we in, and we had, you know, conversations, which, with each one of those people, the majority of them, you know, thankfully, we've been able to bring back. And so, but, again, I like what you said about this integrity of behavior, that if you behave a certain way, when things are good, then it's going to be total cognitive dissonance for anybody to say, wait a minute, who am I, who is this person that all of a sudden, gets all corporate corporate on me and sent me an email saying that, sorry, you know, you've been made redundant, and your things are going to be in a box and just come pick him up, right? I just that, that just, I just cringe when I think about. And I know that there are all kinds of situations, right. And, and there are that spectrum of, of situations from, you know, total misbehavior, or, you know, whatever, which hopefully, you don't experience if you have a good, you know, recruiting and onboarding process, but but then, but then it all, it's also the fact that organizations evolved, right, and so somebody that could have been the perfect marketing person for the company, during this stage. Now, the, if the company gets to a new level, and they the needs of the company, and the environment that will allow that person to continue to grow is no longer there, then you've got to be having that conversation also. And at some point, the best thing for the organization, that best thing for that person may be for that person to continue to grow outside of the organization. And so if, but if those things are not being talked about, before they happen, then that surprises is a terrible negative, right? It's like, wait a minute, I you know, what, what do you mean? I'm not, you know, what the company needs during this next stage? Right? What do you mean my 10 years of loyalty to the company? don't mean anything, right. And so, but but those conversations and being very frank about, you know, where, where that person needs to go and how they need to evolve to continue to be a productive part of the team, need to be happen happening all the time. And I think as a company, we we take a position when it comes to leadership, for example, if we we want to be and we're working hard on this, we're not there yet. But we want to be in an organization that has a leadership pipeline, that creates leaders that create leaders and at some point, somebody is going to get to a point in their development where they say, You know what, I have bigger leadership skills than what's needed here. And I'm ahead of the company in my own growth. And so is the company going to be supportive of my going out and being the great alumni of the company somewhere else? And then, you know, creating lasting relationships? Like, you know, I think I, you and I were talking the other day that the fact that we had those conversations and that your departure happened the way did, it allowed us to, it's not like, um, if I saw you, you know, at the mall or something, I was like, Oh, who there comes? I'm embarrassed. It's like, no, it's Hey, Chris, big hug. All that, you know, you guys did a project for us when you were, you know, once you once you were at Softway, and we needed, you know, it video video. It created to you for references when, when I'm when we're looking for someone. And so that so that relationship is, you know, it's bigger than a point in time where two people work in the same place. Right. And so, but but probably one of the most difficult things in in leadership is walking, that walk even in the midst of those types of really difficult circumstances.

Chris Pitre
No, and I remember, in those times, like in that day where we had a difficult conversation, sometimes the reactions are negative, not because you did the sort of incorrect thing, or you didn't sort of treat people well. It's just because people are emotional creatures, and they get upset, right? And I just remember, in that moment, and my sort of 20 something year old brain, like thinking like, Man, I'm sorry, right, had to have that conversation. But I completely understand and I, I rationalized on your behalf without you have to explain why your vision, which is rare, right? And I hit her like to my own horn, but that was something that I remember, like, Man, I'm sorry, right had to have that really hard conversation. Like, you know, hopefully, you know whiteboard is successful. And this is an attitude that it takes to any previous employer is that I don't care how how bad of an experience I might have had, or if there was a bad situation that happened in the midst of so many great things. I always want them to be successful, because they will always be on my resume. Right. Like, you don't want your previous employers to go down in flames. Yeah, right. Like it doesn't do anything for your resume like that. It sort of undervalues or devalues resume. So I remember and still one of the biggest fans of SHR, Whiteboard labs. And it goes a long way to be able to talk about something as sort of deep and personal and something rarely discussed as being let go involuntarily from an organization and still having relationships. Still being able to wish people will still be able to crack jokes and laugh, but also still have professional ties where we can work together, we can do things I can come and speak at your event, you can come and speak at our podcast. And and I think that many sort of listeners here should understand that an exit doesn't have to be a goodbye. And Exit doesn't also have to mean the end of a relationship. Right? I know that I am always committed if just like you said, if there's someone who has outgrown that position, but there isn't something that we can put them in, I will help you find your next I will be a reference and I will explain the situation so that people understand why a current, you know, leader is willing to talk to a future employer live about Yeah, you know, you joining our team and why it's not a setup. And so I think that those are, are really interesting to me, this is like the exciting part of you know, this concept of love as a business strategy. Because when there's love there, this becomes so much more comfortable, easy, open, honest, transparent. You know, I can ask questions, you can ask me questions, you know, we can talk about like, get to the real stuff versus, in many organizations I've seen where this gets sort of becomes like a sort of corporate spin where everything is just sort of, here's a box, pick your stuff up, leave, thank you so much. Like, give me your badge and you're out the door. And those situations, exit interviews are not honest. You actually have people leave with a lot of tribal knowledge that didn't get passed on or transferred. But when you do it this way, some of those if you get honesty, hey, I love this. I didn't love this, Hey, you know, I started this project, who do I need to transfer this over to because I want to make sure that they're set up for success, right? It's a whole different mindset for majority of those people that are exiting when it's done this versus when you have to be cold and calculated and corporate about it. And like things are left in the balance, a lot of things show up in the balance.

Rod Jimenez
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's absolutely right. Because it it also, it also happens in our direction, right? Sometimes we lose people that we don't want to lose, but it's because they bit and then hopefully, those relationships lead then to a much more open and a discussion from which we can learn, right? If it's, if it's somebody that's saying, Look, I'm leaving. But here's, here are the reasons why. Right, and I've done as I've grown as much as I can here, I need to go somewhere else. But then that leaves that opens the door for a, a transition that's well structured. And that doesn't hinder the objective objectives of the organization because you trans, for that it gives the organization the opportunity to learn from that person that now is in a position to I mean, unfortunately, you don't want this you don't want the exit interview to be where people finally are honest with you, right? But But in some cases, that is the case, right? That they go well. Since I'm leaving here, I'll tell you, this is this is one thing that I wish this organization did differently. Again, you want to have the environment where were you, when those conversations don't happen. Don't wait for the exit interview. Right? But But if if you do it well, and that's what's gonna happen, then at least, you will learn from that. And you will take that from from that process that could be painful and useless in therapy, painful and useful, right? And so

Jeff Ma
this, I've been uncharacteristically quiet, but really enjoying kind of being a spectator to this trip through the memories in the beginning and end of Chris's time with you, Rod, I do want to kind of, kind of bring it all together and kind of kind of talk about what I learned, and I hope the audience got out of it as well, because I think we talked about, and I think Chris alluded to this, we talked about love all the time, and that we don't probably touch enough on this much more difficult subject of kind of what love looks like in the harder times, or in the, you know, business side of things, to be honest. Right. So love as a business strategy. The word business there, and unfortunately, sometimes part of business includes these things that are just very difficult, and must be done. And I thought, you know, has got me thinking a lot, just, you know, Softway, obviously, obviously, has also gone through its ups and downs, we've had to make difficult business decisions. And it's really awesome to hear kind of Chris, your inspiration for how we continue to work towards getting better and getting through those things coming from, from you, Rod coming from the history that was there. It's really inspirational to see that, you know, that that that culture is being passed on, and carry through from your organization, Rod now through Chris, into organization, and so on. But it's such a challenge. And I think, I think I got really uncomfortable hearing in just revisiting, you know, layoff situations and things like that, because it really challenges and puts your culture to the test, it really kind of exposes where trust really was or wasn't. You know, we go through the corporate version of layoffs when we don't have trust, because we don't when we haven't built relationships, because that's, that's the safeguard. That's the defense, we have to get through it without having to be as real about it. And I think you've all been guilty of that, or have experienced something like that. Before so yeah, so that's what I got out of it. And I think, yeah, as we kind of bring into close here, just want to really appreciate Rod you and Chris, you're kind of like a guest to me today as well, because I felt like I appreciate both of you for the conversation today and just kind of having this very real, very honest moment, like a window, if you will, into, you know, the reality that the harder side of love is a business strategy. And I thought that these, just the sharing was really important for everybody here. So thanks You so much

Chris Pitre
awesome and as a favorites, Rod because he can't say this stuff, but I can, if you're a hotel, you're listening and you are in the need of a new revenue management system. Or if you need help figuring out how to make money, especially as we recover from COVID Please reach out to SHR. They are great people doing great things. And I would love to get some business to Rod so he can keep up the great culture and continue the legacy of love as the business strategy in that organization. So, shameless plug, this is the hard sell. And after this I'm sure it'll be a much more friendly and palatable conversation.

Rod Jimenez
That's great. Thanks.

Jeff Ma
Does it doesn't love as a strategy as a podcast first for us. An unpaid advertisement Yeah, directly in the show.

Rod Jimenez
I'm sure he's gonna send me a bill.

Jeff Ma
Chris Christie, you wanna do you want to plug our book as well? Or podcast? Yes,

Chris Pitre
and hoteliers. Also if you are interested for great books to read, love as a business strategy is out available for purchase on all your favorite retailers, whether that be Amazon, or Barnes and Nobles or you know, Apple books. So please support us if you want to understand how you can start learning or applying concepts from today's podcast as well as other sort of conversations. Feel free to pick up a copy.

Jeff Ma
You're very Yeah, I'll

Rod Jimenez
plug you back man. I've enjoyed the book tremendously. I think it's a I think it's a great read. And it's it's fun it's it's it's fun going through tough times when it's you know, you're reading about him on somebody else's account. Right. So but it's a it's it's very relevant. And speaking of the hospitality industry, it's it's tough to be a hotelier these days. Right. And, and just by definition, and hotel, hotel, your the passion there is for a guest for the experience, but that only comes from having this staff that can live that out in hospitality always comes from that place of sort of empathy and in passion in loving somebody and having somebody else's interest in mind. And so I think it'd be very relevant for anybody in the hotel industry, especially in in the type of environment that we have right now.

Chris Pitre
Are you listening Marriott? Marriott is one of my dream clients. Just FYI. Everybody knows that a Softway. Like if Marriott picks up the phone and says, Hey, Chris, I think we have a project like we're doing it for free. No kidding. But really careful. It's like, call me I'm intentionally mentioning this. So you know, putting sound to the universe, Marriot. If you listen,

Jeff Ma
well, whoever is listening, we really appreciate you joining us once again. As you might know, we do post every Wednesday new episodes, and hopefully enjoyed this one. If you do, leave us a review five stars, likes, shares, all those things. We really appreciate it. And once again, really appreciate rod and you, Chris, today for this conversation. And with that, I'll be signing off.