People want to be a part of something that successful. They want to be a part of something that's game changing. They want to be a part of something that's making a difference. And when you can do that and create a space for that it's just magic.
Hello, and welcome to Love as a Business Strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And as always, I'm here to have conversations and hear stories from real people and real businesses. And I am really excited. Today I'm joined by a very special guest. She is the chief executive officer for Austin Habitat for Humanity. And she has been leading that amazing organization through growth and overcoming challenges since 2015. And the path that led her to that role included serving as the Chief Operating Officer for the Austin Chamber of Commerce. She's been the president and CEO of the chambers of commerce in San Marcos Victoria and Athens, Texas. She is the vice president for the Texas Association of businesses and she even ran her own accounting business along the way, just to name a few. Her name is Phyllis Snodgrass, and I am so happy to have her on the show today. Hello, Phyllis. Welcome to the show. How are you?
Great to see you again, Jeff. I'm doing great. Thanks.
Yes, I've had the pleasure of working with you and your team. And I've had a chance to see you in action. And, you know, people are gonna have to take my word for it. But I'm just a huge fan of your leadership style, and how you bring humanity to the workplace, in everything you do. So thank you so much for taking the time to be here today.
Well, it's an honor. And working with you and your team has been really great for our organization. Transformational. So this is this is a great topic to be talking about.
So thank you so much. You know, recently, I saw that the Urban Land Institute of Austin named you a recipient of the 2022 vision award, congratulations. Can you tell us a little bit about that award.
That was for Career and Community Development and community building. It was really kind sweet award, something totally unexpected from an organization that I have a lot of respect for, for the good work that they do. I looked at who won in the past. And I was like, I think they've made a mistake. But we'll take it was really cool. 
Always, humble. I love it. I guess I want to start kind of going back for you. And I know, that can be vague, you don't have to go back to your childhood. But really looking to just paint a picture for me if you can have like your your road to the passion and what you do today. Like, how did what that journey looked like what brought you to do what you do today?
That's funny, I, you know, I started out in accounting. For practical reasons, we were just coming out of a recession really still in one and I got out of college. And that was an area that there were jobs. And so I actually switched my major from marketing to accounting, because I knew I was going to need a job to pay off student loans and to get a good life moving forward. So it was very practical as we're entering a downturn again, sometimes you have to be practical during downturns. And so I took a very practical approach. And so it wasn't a career I was passionate about, but it was something I knew would would be marketable. And, and I learned a lot it was such good training. And I it was so beneficial in so many ways. So I look back on a career path and a timeline. And while some people will say, Well, I'm doing something I'm not passionate about. I just chose to lean in and learn in that space. You know, learn about people management, learn about business, learn about accounting, and spreadsheets and all of that. And every bit of it has been super helpful to me in every other career position I've had and I didn't plan it that way. Eventually  really did though, after almost 15 years and accounting come to that place where I was like okay, I'm not going to do this the rest of my life and what's going to be next and was offered a buyout during another economic downturn, an organization I was working at FDIC then and they were going to do some pretty large reduction in force. And I said, that's that's a good time for me like this, this might be a really good time to exit. So I chose to take the buyout and kind of venture out on my own. And and before you knew it within two or three years of just kind of stumbling and searching and trying to figure out what comes next, nothing like forcing you to do it, like putting yourself out there and saying, okay, doing something different. I, I found the world of nonprofits and started running chambers of commerce and fell in love with it just fell in love with it.
Amazing, and, you know, for those who want to go look you up, you are, you know, you've had many accolades, and many praises come your way for your role throughout your career, but especially in Austin habitat. What do you think? Is your unique kind of approach? I mean, and not everyone thinks they have one, but they often do. But what is your mindset in in your approach to leadership, especially in the nonprofit sector, profit sector here? 
Well, I think, one, I bring a business mindset to the nonprofit sector. I, we joke around here a lot that we're a nonprofit on April 15, the rest of the year, we're trying to make money. We don't need to lose money you don't, you don't have to go into we need to run efficiently run like a business, be entrepreneurial. If we're going to deliver service, and provide excellent product for our clients, and be all that we can be and serve the greatest need that we that we need to operate like a business. And so we do, and bringing that mindset to the to the business space is important, but something I learned in the business world. And then on my chamber days was really it's all about relationships. Everything is about relationships, I ever since my first job out of school, every every single job I've gotten since then every other every career move has been through relationships. It's not been going after a wanted ad, or just or looking at people's websites for what's available. It's been because somebody called me up and said, Hey, I think this would be good for you. And looking into it. And if it made sense pursuing it. And so the career path looks like on paper, like I planned it, and I really didn't, I was just open to the opportunities as they came, and thankful that I was building relationships with people, trusting relationships, where they would, you know, be comfortable to share those opportunities with me.
Where do you think, I guess I use the word broadly but LOVE as for the name of the podcast, where do you think love comes in for you like personally, in your work and in your life?
Well, I it very much identifies with my faith and when with my beliefs, you know, about loving our neighbors as ourselves and, and the importance of caring for the people around us. And it is just really all about people every, every way to be successful. You need to you need to be able to work with people, you need to understand people you need to, to be able to connect with people. I don't try to sell things, I try to share what we're doing. Find ways to collaborate and open up opportunities, sometimes opportunities for people to part with their money, but open up opportunities for the people that that we're connected to. But it's it's the relationships that have carried that brought our organization forward. So far, we are very much centered on on relationships, on being servant leaders within the organization, but also in collaborations of working really well with people both inside the organization and outside the organization if you can learn to work well with people. And if you can do the best work you can, not caring about who gets the credit. Good things will happen.
There's a nuance in working in nonprofits specific like you mentioned, it's still is operating like a business. Do you find any challenges that are unique to the nonprofit sector when it comes to that what you're talking about that approach?
You know? Yes and no, I at getting people over the mindset, a scarcity mindset, which tends to occur in the nonprofit space, you know, nonprofits have to run like a business, they have to be efficient and productive. They're delivering a service that's important, and there's heart and there's mission behind it. But they're not going to succeed, if there's not enough money coming in to pay for the expenses that they have. And often people that are drawn into the nonprofit space, that love helping people, they either have a disdain for money, and you know, in are like, well, I don't want to have to ask for money, or touch money, or what have you. And I'm like, that's a mindset, I've had to get the team to overcome, like, we are here to provide a service. And if there aren't dollars coming in the door, we won't be here to provide the service. So getting them to understand that we're all in sales. And selling is merely being able to tell our story well, in in getting people to learn how to individualize their story, and why this is important to them, understand what we do, and be able to talk about it in English, without too many acronyms, and so that they can connect with people. Because again, it is really all about people, people want to be a part of something that successful, they want to be a part of something that's game changing, they want to be a part of something that's making a difference. And when you can do that and create a space for that it's just magic.
I make a statement based on my observations, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, I think, an interesting phenomenon in working with nonprofits, but even some for profit, jobs where passion is at the center of the of the objective, right. So for nonprofits, people, as you mentioned, join, to do something for the world to make a difference and do something great. And even some, you know, other careers, you know, in health and things like that, that's, that's the driving factor. And what I've seen happen before is that people have such a love in their heart for their mission, and that final outcome, so if it's building homes for people or helping those in need, they're driven by that. And it's almost as if that that singular focus of love kind of can often blind them, to kind of their co workers, their colleagues, or those that are maybe obstacles in their way to achieving that mission. In other words, you know, how, you know, I want to help the, the, the poor or the hungry, but, you know, my team is slowing me down. And, and the way that we treat each other in order to get to that objective is sometimes missing that component. Have you seen that? Or do you have any anecdotes around that?
Oh, so much. I, you know, I've been in organizations where just the, the division between departments was so strong. And, again, a lot of times, to your point, it comes from a place of passion very often, or it comes from a place of insecurity. And, in either way, getting people to understand that we're stronger together to learn how to respect what what the other people in the organization bring to the table, to better understand what it is they do on a daily basis to be to be transparent about that can go such a long way. When I came here to Austin habitat, that was one of the first things I did was sit down with every single person I meet with them, and for about an hour. And so there was 42 people here at the time, we're now over 100. And just to get a pulse on where the organization was at what was what was broken, what was going on between the departments. And we then we just very purposefully sat on, on building bridges on getting to know each other on, on determining what those core values were going to be that we were going to operate under and changed our our entire performance evaluation system to line up with those core values. Because, you know, to my point, we you don't hire people that don't know how to do the job. I mean, we hire people for their skills, but when we get them, they need to operate in a way that supports your core values. And so we we hire for skills, but then we evaluate based on core values. So we want people to not just be able to bring their skills to the table, but to do it in a way that builds everybody up and we're we're stronger together. And the it's it's been fun to watch. People progress through that, you know, people come into that place at different stages, some people have been burned before in the past and other jobs and so that they have a hard time trusting and hard time letting go some of those defense mechanisms that they put up, or it's, it's amazing to me I was just visiting with somebody about this this morning, how much people you you don't realize until you're a manager, what, what you're going to be dealing with when you have a lot of employees because they're, they're not just bringing what happened at home today. They're bringing along relationship issues they've had, since they were a child, how they were parented, past work experiences are so much that walks in the door, on their shoulders, and in their head. And so often, the conflicts that occur, are not even really based on what's going on in the office, it's something that's happened to them in the past that you've triggered. And so learning how to deal with people and create a compassionate space, but also to set boundaries. I mean, there are some things like this are, there are some behaviors that are acceptable, and some that aren't. And if people need help learning how to bring their best self to work, then we're willing to do that, but we're going to create a safe space, a safe space for everyone that works here.
As a leader, have, how have you seen that make a difference? I guess, like, where the people are, I guess bringing more of that to work bringing more of those things that you mentioned, around their personal life in their in their past, when you allow that in, how have you seen that make a difference?
Well, when you when when people can bring their whole self to work and they're not and and you can help them overcome some of whatever might be holding them back. If they feel like this is a safe place, a safe place where they are supported and encouraged and welcome in wanted. We really see him take off and and do amazing things. We've We've just had some absolutely stellar performers, we've had people that we've moved up the ladder from very basic opening jobs that they that they took when they first got here, and then just move their way up the ladder all the way to a senior leadership position. Because they brought themselves in and because they leaned in, and then we set people up as examples so that other people can see that, yes, you too, can come in, learn, grow, make a difference. And this is what it takes to do that. You know that there is a responsibility of the the employee of the person in in that role to bring all of themselves in, I mean, there, everyone's not going to have a great day, but on the most of the time and the days that they're here, they need to bring their best self to the table. But if you give them that environment to do that, you reward reward great behavior. You can get really high functioning teams in that environment. And I love the fact that people here like coming to work and when new people start, they'll often say something's different here, or every time I walk in, everybody looks happy. I've never worked anyplace where everybody was so happy and and that, to me that just that makes me happy that makes me thrilled that we've created a space where people enjoy showing up here.
That's amazing. What I'm curious what you I don't know if this has happened before, but how do you handle as I imagine, you know, many people are there for the right reasons, but like you mentioned there are still are acceptable and non acceptable behaviors like how do you deal with people who are just, you know, highly skilled and fit for the job in the sense of all the skills and very passionate and all these things but but are not necessarily like not a healthy food healthy necessarily. Like how do you deal with that? Have you dealt with that?
I absolutely just was having this discussion with a group of CEOs that I was meeting with yesterday. You know, they we all know the rule is to hire slow and fire fast and and I am the world's worst at the firing fast i i I am a compassionate leader. I love people I want to see them succeed and I tend to do what I tell other people not to do which is I will pour into people longer than I should at times. But even then sometimes you just have that breaking point and When you've made it really clear, this is the why behave, what behavior is expected. And then you, you see those destructive tendencies taking place. And, and even with me, even even with somebody who wants to be compassionate, and I'll bring in help and bring in counseling, I've seen people turn and change and improve and develop the skills they need to succeed. But if they can't, they typically are hurting more people. You're trying to help them, but they're hurting others, and they're, and they're killing the environment. And when I've seen when we've made those choices to to end that. Immediately, there's been a change, I mean, immediately things get better within the organization, immediately, the department that person is in is healthier, and the environment is better. And and every time it's happened, I can't just back and said, that took too long. That was like, No, you know it when it's happened, but I was just counseling someone yesterday about this. And I was like, Don't do it, I've done do and I'm telling you right now, there you you will struggle through trying to drag this out. And for what you've already seen them behavior, they've already given them a chance, it's it's not improving, you're already witnessing the damage it's doing to the people around you, you have a higher responsibility. And that's all the other people that that person's touching. Like, if you can't get them to a good healthy space, you've got to remove that.
On that vein of having to make those hard decisions, you know, they say it's lonely at the top. And, you know, I'm curious, as CEO of this organization, is that true for you? And how do you how do you handle that? If so,
it can be, I don't have the opportunity to go commiserate with someone that's reporting to me about some of these issues, a lot of the time. I've developed a really healthy leadership team that that pretty much sees eye to eye on this. And so they're super helpful for each other. But one decision I made when I came here to habitat that I knew was going to be necessary. Based on where we were going, the number of people we had, what we were trying to accomplish was I knew I was going to need some peers to talk to other CEOs going through similar things. And so I looked into CEO peer advisory forums, and looked for a place where I would have the ability to learn and get better at what I'm doing. But also have accountability partners and have people to share these experiences with and grow and learn from ended up joining C 12. And it was a game changer for us and Habitat and for myself because it gave me a safe space to work through to get better at what I do as a CEO. And also just to talk to other CEOs and non competing industries. And it's amazing how everyone's gone through the same thing, regardless of what they're running. Is it a tech company it is an insurance company is a healthcare company, is it a construction company is a nonprofit that's running a thrift store and building homes. And the people problems are often very much the same, as are many of the other problems. They may be called different things. But it's typically the same thing. And just that affirmation, that encouragement sometimes that Why are you still telling us this? Why haven't you done something about it? That's the beauty of having a peer advisory group is they're not going to let you bring that same problem to the table three months in a row. They're going to call you out on it and say, Well, I think we'd be done with this right now, if you had actually done what you're supposed to do two months ago. And so that's, that's really helpful. And I think and I think everybody needs that. And I've encouraged my teams to build peer groups. We've got C 12, has something called key players. So a lot of my leadership team in that and they're able to talk to other people at the CEO and the Chief Human Resources Officer position with other organizations. And so having that ability to to learn from others has been helpful for them. But then even on my development teams and my restore teams, I so many of my different groups. I've encouraged them to build networks of experts that do what they do, and if they need help. I've made introductions on that because it's made a world of difference to me and people that people are very willing to share. People are willing to help in it. You just have to ask. So I think that's been something that the Team has appreciated that we we allow them time for that.
I want to talk a little bit about Austin Habitat in particular, what what does, like as Love as a Business Strategy look like as an organization like what does that mean? What does love look like, within the walls of Austin habitat.
Love means that we, we care, not just about the clients that we serve and the community we serve, but the people that we work with every day. And it means that we put others needs above our own with safe boundaries on that, that we are willing to do things that may not be in our job description. Because a team member needs help in this area, that we are able to sit down in a room and look for the best outcome, not necessarily the best outcome for our department, but the best outcome for the organization. And getting to a place like that is a journey. And you know, we slip up occasionally we have to address it when we when we do when we don't get it right. But it's a journey. It's not. It's never something where you say you've arrived. But you just kind of have to say this is my Northstar, this is what we want to be this is how we want to behave. And just we stumble through our days doing the best we can to get there.
Can you share for the audience the the kind of mission or vision for Austin habitat?
Well, Austin habitat exist, to build homes, community and hope. Our vision is a world where everyone has a safe and decent place to live. And because home is so important to us, we really try to keep that at the forefront of our decisions is whatever we're doing, helping us achieve that goal of building more homes. And one of the big ways we do that is advocacy, advocating for better policies. And they aren't necessarily policies that benefit us. Again, that's that service above self part. We advocate for policies in the community, in the state in the nation, around housing, that are better for housing overall, if there's better housing overall, there'll be better affordable housing. And so we will lean into solutions, even if they don't directly benefit us, because they benefit the industry that we're in. And that helps move the needle for all of us. So we in trying, and that's something we've had to really work on with the team is to get them to understand early on, it was like, Well, why are we doing that that's only going to help rental housing, or that's only going to help so and so and I'm like, moves us all forward. And we have gained a lot of respect in the community, and across the state and across the nation. As someone who cares about the issue as a whole and is willing to share expertise and, and share knowledge and move needles forward and just move that move solutions to the forefront. And it's and I'm proud of the team for that. I've got team members that speak across the country and have been interviewed for books and go speak at symposiums. And it's because they've come up with solutions that are good for the industry as a whole. So I'm proud of that, that I think thinking much bigger than just the little bubble that we operate in has made us a more effective organization.
I know your role as a CEO is coming to an end soon. But what do you hope to see, maybe five years from now, Austin Habitat be able to accomplish?
I am blessed. I'm just so blessed where I'm leaving this organization where we're at today. We've built an amazing team. We're in a really good financial position. We've established a name for ourselves as an organization that's a difference maker in the affordable housing space. We've built up a consulting practice that that actually is a huge benefit for profit builders and developers who are trying to operate in the space as well. And all of that has really just elevated the stature of the organization. So what I'm hoping and excited to see happen is they're going to bring in a new CEO with new ideas New Vision, he's coming into a very different organization than I came into seven years ago, they're coming into an organization that's much healthier, much more sound financially. That's, that's got really good team that's in a good, a good space. Thanks a lot to you and your team for the work you did with us to help us get there. And I just feel like they're going to take this organization to that next level, you know, we're, we're, we're looking at a vision of not just 50 homes a year, but how do we get to 100 homes a year. And that makes us a major player in the for profit or the nonprofit space for for building homes in Austin. And the need is so great. So like, I'm excited to see that I'm looking forward to watching what they're able to do with where we're at today and take it to that next level and just cheer him on from behind.
Absolutely. And having met the incredible cast of characters, in your leadership team, I do feel they're in good hands, you have this amazing hearts amazing kind of minds in that space working together. And, and I know it's just going to do great things. Last little bit is I just want to make sure people know if if they want to be a part of it or help out with Austin habitat or habitat for humanity in general. What's what's the best way? What should they do? Where should they go?
Well, the easiest is to go to the website, which is Austinhabitat.org. And all our contact information is there. So it's easy to get a hold of us. There are so many people here, this is really a team, you could reach out to anybody on that site, and they're going to be able to help you but then they're also going to be able to direct you to exactly where you need to go. And we're always looking for new partners and and people that want to make a difference either as a supporter of volunteer or an employee. So if you're at all interested, we encourage you to check us out. Come meet us.
Absolutely, Phyllis, I really appreciate you sharing your story. But also, you're passion with us today. I was looking forward this conversation for a very long time, because it's been like how over half a year since we've, we've talked and you know, I think what you're doing is is incredible what you've been doing, has made a real difference as been evident with with all the success that's been going on. And you know, I just I really want to thank you for taking the time today. But also, you know, just thank you for what you're putting into the world. Thank you for kind of what your leadership has been able to, to produce. Thank you so much.
I appreciate it. Thank you and your entire team. Just a joy to work with and love as a business strategy, if I can make a quick plug is one of the best things we did as an organization. It really it's a book that talks about exactly what we were trying to do as an organization. And when I read it, I was like, This is it. This is what we want. We want our organization to be. And so to be able to work with someone who gets it and who has who has techniques and strategies to help the teams get closer and better at working together was amazing. So thank you for that.
I appreciate that so much, and to our audience. Appreciate you as well, as always for tuning in. Please continue to Subscribe, tell your friends and check out the book as Phyllis so kindly plugged for us. But, you know, every week we're trying to continue having these conversations with real folks out in the real world and get having this amazing opportunity. Dr. Phyllis, hope you enjoyed it. We will be back next week with another good one. So with that, we're gonna close this episode out. Thank you, Phyllis. Thank you, everybody, and we'll see you next week.