Paul Haury  
The highest performing people that they are living it all the way they feel they own. And they care for each other, and successes, dreams and very, very important failures. And this is where belonging is for people, because they do it for somebody, and that somebody does it for them. And so that's when belonging is actual, it's real at that point as opposed to a sense.

Jeff Ma  
Hello, and welcome to love - A podcasts that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. But we want to tackle topics that most business leaders tend to shy away from. We believe that humanity and love should be at the center of every successful business. As always, I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I want to have conversations and hear stories with real people about real world businesses, and real world situations. And my guest today is Paul Haury, who is an executive coach that specializes in belonging through what he calls heart based leading, Paul gets people to experience belonging, and self belonging in their own brilliance, and within their company tribes to really live and perform better than they ever imagined. In his most recent endeavors, he's served as a VP of people and culture and as a professional coach specializing in belonging, and optimal performance for individuals and companies. He's joining today to share about how people perform at their highest when they belong and believe in shared purpose together, and where people fear less than Aspire more, and I love that so much. Welcome to the show. Paul, how are you?

Paul Haury  
I am fantastic. And I am so thankful to be here. This is gonna be one wonderful time.

Jeff Ma  
Yes, absolutely. And, man, what a topic. I mean, belonging is something that's it's in the title of our book. It's in something that we talk about all the time, but we rarely have kind of narrowed it down to just this word. And I know it's not just this word. So I'm really excited to dive into that with you. And before we begin, Paul, if you don't mind, I'd also I'd like to start with with you as a person first and kind of where does Where does your passion lie in and what brought you to it today?

Paul Haury  
I mean, I could go all the way back possibly to five years old. When I go, this is the way my mom tells story. By the way. There's a birthday party, it's my birthday. At the house. There's 10 kids, and I'm not there. And apparently what happened and I kind of remember this is one friend couldn't make it for some reason got in trouble. And so I left my birthday party because they were left out. And I was we were at his house using his mom's good pie plates and making mud pies. Out in the in the front yard. So I kind of had this thing that that we should be having fun in and really being in life. But professionally my first systemic look at it was as in a very conscious level was at a high school teacher. I taught at my old high school. I'm actually like a Welcome Back, Kotter. If you're old enough to remember this show, Welcome Back, Kotter. I taught at my old high school. And I went to South Pacific University. It was the best school to get your teaching credentials, if you got it there. You can teach anywhere in the US and they would love you. So I had a full year of lesson plans already pre read and ready to go. And as I started the year, and then it's a tough, it's a tough area of the Seattle it's white center. It's really a lower, lower socio economic, it actually had the highest percentage of free and reduced lunch in the whole northwest. Which I thought was crazy. But that's what it was. It's where I grew up. But I went in and it was almost immediate aspect. It didn't matter how detailed how good I had preset all of the lesson plans. I mean, they were technically they covered and they broke down the learnings. They were all they had high active race plus cognitive aspects and so on. But I sat there in the first day with them going if they don't know and that's a feeling know not just intellectual know. If they didn't know that I loved them and that this was their place where they were not used term they belonged then It didn't matter how good the lesson plans were. And then to the opposite was the belief that I just kind of dawned on me as I'm working with the kids, that if they know you love them, the learning will happen automatically and at very high levels, because they'll know that somebody has their back. And somebody loves and cares for them. And it's not that it'll cause it because it's not that transactional of the space. But they will respond in that this space to be to be better and better for each other. Because I actually designed the classroom management model from a lean teaching program stuff that they had to be caring for each other in the space, it couldn't be the teacher as the authoritarian forcing the care, because, you know, let's face it, anybody, even us? If we're told what to do, the first response is, don't tell me what to do. Daniel Pink is so right. It, you know, we'd like our autonomy or meant to do our mastery and have our purpose. So in that same vein, with the high school students, it was, this is your classroom, you are each other's in this classroom. And it was a total exercise kind of like love as a business strategy was kind of like, well, let's try it. This was the same thing in the classroom, you know, will you guys make a place to belong for each other. And, yeah, it meant first three weeks was me shepherding and hounding and, and really re inviting somebody into that space. And there were those that naturally gravitated to it. They wanted to make it a better place for each other. So those people became kind of like the the emissaries, the shepherds of this, the sub shepherds in the space. And then the goal wasn't to keep track of everybody in that it was if somebody was falling away from from, from the space that they were then called back in, and  been brought back in to to be part of the tribe again. And it was wonderful. It, I had a class of 45 students that self managed, because they took care of each other, and they aspired in a place where they could go to an edge, where if they were alone, you just walk away from the edge, but because they were had somebody still with them, and pushing them, and they were learning NURBS, CAD CAM software, plus Dreamweaver design software, for creating websites and commerce and stuff. It was the coolest thing. But it really had everything to do with, if they know you love them, they will learn and just flourish. And so that's what I that's why I worked to create and that that's what I took even into business about creating a space where people really belong.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, I love that. And belonging has a through line for you from five year old to high school teacher to today. So I guess Can you define, in the simplest way possible? What belonging means? Now, for you? 

Paul Haury  
Oht hat way, you just threw me on my soapbox. Now, so most, the most common uses and definitions of lying are a one wave path of feeling, feeling affirmed. You can be your authentic self and all this kind of stuff. And that's a feeling of it. And that's can be an affirmation and affirming space. But I, this is where I redefine it. And I actually say no applying is this. And this is where the high performance shows up. Or even the best life for somebody where they, instead of going, I gotta go to work today. Because they're going to work because they belong, because they belong to their family. And in that space, now you've got a divided element. Now if they can belong at work, then you get a whole different thing. Now, instead of having to have somebody watched the back, they're all watching each other's back and they go forward in that that requires a very simple doesn't mean it's super easy at times, but it's very simple. The highest performing people that they are living it all the way they feel, they own and they care for each other, and successes, dreams and very, very important. failures. And this is where belonging is for people because they do it for somebody and that somebody does it for them. And so that That's when belonging is actual, it's real at that point as opposed to a sense.

Jeff Ma  
So can you can I, can I ask you to expound on that a little bit? Because what I'm hearing is you're saying that when I feel a sense of belonging, or when there's these feelings of belonging, you're saying there's a tangible gap between that and actual belonging?

Paul Haury  
Absolutely, then so. So for example, you could be in a place where somebody's given, you know, Jeff's the coolest guy on earth and everything else. And, you know, Jeff gets to express himself. In that same space, you can have all that. And even be told you have value. And look what just happened to 1000s and 1000s of employees. They got all that stuff, they were there to get the sense of belonging, and they just got jettisoned. And then you find out that a sense of belonging isn't belonging, no matter. And precisely, the thing is, you can have all those things and still go, I don't belong in because this is where belonging is also a choice feelings, it's a passive space. It's almost like you're a victim to whether it is or it isn't. belonging, and that's why I started out with you feel and care for somebody, and not so that. So that would be the transactional. And we know when it's a transactional, yeah, what do you want. And then we know when somebody's like, I, I like you, I want to hang out with you. And we get that, and then it goes back and forth. And that's what belonging is actually happening. And it's just, it's a dynamic that's always happening mirror neurons, that the chemical changes between us are happening in real time to create this actual different space, the space where it says, it's not like attachment theory, this is real, this is like, No, I'm, I'm not gonna let you down. what that might mean is, I might now learn something that I didn't know to make sure that I have you in a situation. And this is where the the my comes into place to feel own and care. You're not a Jeff Ma, you're my Jeff Ma. And so there's this whole shift that comes in the blind, it has these three aspects. And if we were to break down the, you know, the, the psychosocial terms, it's empathy, account accountability for somebody, because you're taking ownership in that space of them. And compassion care for, I mean, if if those three things, and this is why it's limited to just those three things, because it's kind of simply what happens for us, we feel for somebody, we take them as ours, not as a possession. But as an, they're ours. And this is why we even say things like my spouse, my wife, my husband, my friend, my dog that just barked a little while ago, we don't say a dog. Because we take that, and that's a part of belonging. And then we care for, because that's what we do. When we belong, we unite. The outcome is we unite in fight, instead of get stuck in a group fight flight. And that's, that's a whole different model. And this is where you get Navy Seals and the level that they will go through to become the best at whatever they need to be for their team. Or I also like the US Women's World Cup soccer team. They had all sorts of crazy in failure also in the process to winning the world cup. And they took care of each other in that failure. And then in that meant that people adhered into that space of feeling, owning and caring for each other, and how was defined by how the core values of the team would be lived, and the stories of what that would look like. And if you violate it, and you kept leaving that space, and we'll put the tribe at risk, well, then you couldn't belong. And it's like everything we say, and like there's a there's a point in your in your guys's book, where the walls out, we have the inside the walls of Softway? Well, that's because the belonging of software was also a boundary. It's a place to invite into a place of incredible love and space. But it's the Softway way to belong. And so, so to go back to it to make it simple. Belonging is feeling owning and caring for somebody and successes, dreams and failures. And they do the same for you. And what ends up happening is in a company tribe for getting high performance is your belonging, and then believing and shared purpose together. And you're figuring out ways to do it and get it done. As opposed to being caught instead of systems and processes that prescribe ways for you to be in because this is where innovation comes from resilience for, you know, just let go the rope and let me go. And it's like, Nope, I'm hanging out and hanging on, you're getting a rope burn, but you won't let go with a person. And that's the space when you can craft that and set the environment that that brings that about me, it's, it's like the coolest feeling on Earth and you go home and you're better. You're better husband, a better father, a better wife, spouse, lover, everything comes comes, comes through that play.

Jeff Ma  
While you're speaking my language, fully bought in 100% Agree, I'm going to play the devil's advocate for the sake of the conversation. When you look at the average workplace, let's just say the corporate workplace today, what you just described, is, in my opinion, from my experience, not seen very often, at least not in large scales, maybe in smaller individual relationships, or maybe smaller teams, or maybe startups, entrepreneurs situations. But once we get into this, this typical corporate workspace, people have a larger gap to get to what you just described, because there's what I heard from you was, there's a lot of investing in each other. That has to happen in terms of emotionally, mentally and even physically investing time and energy into our relationships. Would you agree with that initial assessment? That would be an understatement. Okay. So from there, my question is, how do we, how do we get there? I know it's a journey. As we all align around why we're even having this conversation, there's a journey to be had his awareness and there's commitment to move down that path. But through heart based leading and the things that you talk about, what is your not the layout, the entire journey, but what what are the steps, what's the tangible hurdles to overcome, to get to a place where that's possible?

Paul Haury  
The hardest part of it, is there's a whole economic system that's rewarding, not love and belonging. And so it requires somebody to have a shift in their own internal story. And that person has to have what's the word I want, they need to have the ability to be into a power to be in power and influence, to make that change in the face of the risk. Because it is a risk. I mean, when you look at a CEO, that might have the same awakening that that Mohammad got had. And they want to do something, and then but there's a board that's doing that's providing the funding for their company that says, I want these results I want to buy now, because this is my exit place, and you're gonna pay me and the CEO has a choice, and it's a lose lose choice. It's, I do this. And I do what my conscience My heart is really telling me to do, which is to make a loving place where I have I have, I have the most elite team of players who have each other's back. And that requires me to have a seven year roadmap instead of a five. And if he sticks with it, they yank their funding. If he sticks with it, they might Yank her as a CEO. Nope, you're out of here. Because that's the stuff that happens in the system. So it really requires somebody to really have the guts to stand in the face of that. And we mean this, the system has been like this for at least 100 years. I mean, that's, that's Taylorist it's that site. It's where this is an unfortunate place where science actually kind of screwed things up. The science of creating a an efficient business model that removed humanity instead of the science that could have built into the brilliance of humans and high level performance into the model. It was actually the opposite it was how do we get to mediocre but predictable performance. And there was a devil in the details there, which meant we lost being human. 

Jeff Ma  
Well, it was crafted in a day and age when we were working assembly lines, and people didn't have to do more than one thing at a time, so the more efficient, the better. And today, the problems we face require creativity and collaboration. And we're still using

Paul Haury  
Absolutely. But it's the old model, the overlay is there. So but where, and I think this is where I keep in the Softway story is so so, so important. We don't change our minds. Because of facts and details. If that was the case, we would have already a much more diverse, or we would have way more women on boards, and in senior leadership teams flat out, just I mean, the numbers don't lie. But the arguments don't change people they never have. What does change people is when they hear story, and the story gets shared to them, and the story lands in space. And then they go from a belief to a misbelief meaning now they're like, Oh, I could do this different. Once that comes to play, it's like, but how will? How will they do this different and still survive? Wait a minute, they did it. Holy crap, I need I need to talk to them. I need to I need to read I need to listen. And then it moves into a new belief. And then we get a chance to decide what how we would live in those behaviors, which would reveal that new belief and accomplish it. And so I think it's going to be a long road to get this change. And you can't force it. It's really just like, you know, hey, you need to go do this the right way. And the person says, If I don't have my job, I can't feed my family. You're You're not telling somebody to do something better and new or whatever. You're telling somebody to potentially let their family die. And so that's where we keep making mistake by saying, you know, you should do it this way. You're wrong and everything else when it's like no be more than more, get into it and reveal it. And yeah, you are absolutely correct this the system is stacked against it at this point from But though we do have these examples of Softway as an example,  VeryWehmiller . Everyday matters story. Digital tutors with Piush Patel. Is that right? Yeah, it was, it's now I can't remember the company , but he had the same aspect. Oh, Rich Sheridan. with Menlo innovations. Yep, we do have examples. And I think this is the case where sharing those examples like Like, I've already passed your guys book a long time and how many people right now? Because it's a story they need to have. Because this is what will change the game and it won't. The world won't just flip on a dime. I don't think there's there's too much power there. But if we keep sharing the story, that's where we get the change. That's what this is how we literally evangelize love as a business strategy. And my thoughts would be this is how we become heart based.

Jeff Ma  
Well, I'm sold. But at the same time, I'm preaching to the choir, I keep keeping on on track with the devil's advocate, storyline here. It sounds like people not only have to have courage, like you mentioned, to do something outside of their comfort zone and put things at risk. But there's also an element of caring beyond the bottom line. And for many people, that's that's a different story. Right? Some people it's like I have a family to feed. So no matter what I can't risk or sacrifice, my position, my my, you know, put to risk my progress and climbing this ladder. And for other people, it's a matter of you know, that privilege that you know, I'm not in a position to shake things up or do something different. There's just so many different storylines that get played out as always a reason. And we call it love as a business strategy, we call it people need a case for change. People need to find their own reason. It can't be oh, I want to be promoted. I want to be business successful. It has to be some reason beyond yourself, beyond your immediate kind of capitalistic needs. Something that makes you want to be a better leader, something that makes you want to make a difference, something that makes you want to care and put yourself out there and put your vulnerabilities kind of at stake. Need to find that. In your experience for Heart Base leading what does that journey look like? How do you help folks is what do you call that? What? How do you get them to that point? And how do you help them find it?

Paul Haury  
So, it's that point, right, and this is, this is how I got really realized it was about belonging. So if, if we really look at the human experience, there's three emotions that are always in play. And, and that is, we're always in fear. We're always in or out of belonging. And we're always an aspiration. I had as a CEO wants to go, challenges sitting around daydreaming, I says, No, they're not daydreaming, they're aspiring, they wish they were someplace else that they would really love being at the look I got was, you know that that really irritated look. And I said, No, it's literally that's what it is in like, even in good, really phenomenal belonging, we move in from our fear moves from a fear of to a fear for, and I'll get to where this change actually happens. And especially even at a senior at, like at the CEO level, we could go with, like, I would welcome talking to a board about this, so the board could get the stories and get the understanding so that the board would then react differently to a CEO, I'm fine with that. It's a perfect use of time. So but it's in belonging, we make this different move. We go from like, if we were on some League team, and we were practicing, the most important thing for us to actually be in the highest position for performance would be to make sure that I loved you, and you loved me. And we were not going to because that meant I was taking care of your family and you were taking care of my family at the same time. Now we're shifting what would keep us from an a non belonging space to be in one where we will then unite and fight for that, because it's a fear for. And so if I'm working with the CEO, like when recently even it was to, what do you want, what would actually work for you in the space to be able to show up to invite that person to be at that better place, as opposed to being in a space of discontent and judgment, because you can still have the super high standard of that what you need for the tribe to keep going and to advance and grow. But you have to invite somebody in. And if they choose not to, they're probably choosing not to belong, because every company has like Softway walls, every company has a boundary. So if you invite people into that space, it but they have to come to it from their own story. And this is I think, where the considered the conversion place and belonging happens. Because that's also a place of self belonging. Where you're going to care for yourself as a CEO, just as you would for some of your senior leaders. And then also then your mid tiers that ultimately they also then in that care will scale it out which this was my classroom model, by the way, to scale then to the people that touch all the people that are the extended tribe of your company, which would be your clients. So in that story once once somebody in this in the leadership space, the influence space, because you don't have to be and that's why I love here was a call it a crap umbrella.

Jeff Ma  
term, it's a different word. But yes, a different word. Okay, for different whatever. Yes, it's an umbrella that Yes. That shields raining down? Yeah, yeah,

Paul Haury  
you can do that space also. And that becomes a place where everybody lands, in that we are an elite team for each other first, to go forward. And once somebody can find that story in their space, then they can reach back and scale in that level of vulnerability. And so that's the process of getting somebody into that space is to go and work in that story in their belonging, and then find so that they can expand that belonging. It's part of what I loved about the story and even how you all were intertwined in that same kind of experience of discovering how you guys would create your particular style of love as a business strategy. .

Jeff Ma  
Yeah I love that. Yeah. I love that shift in the fear because fear is is pervasive and everything we talked about as well. Is

Paul Haury  
any kind of we don't get to avoid it. We're designed not to fall off cliffs. Yeah. But we're also designed to get as close to that cliff as possible so we can see the view. And, and we we do that with somebody, because we say like, I'm gonna go to the edge. Oh, no, you're not. Those are bad rocks. Okay, just let me go closer. Just make sure I if I'm gonna slip that you got me. You're stupid but okay, and we're gonna do that stuff. I'm gonna rock climber. So it's kind of a perfect analogy. But yeah, it's that it's that movements were always an if so if you design and set your, your, your company ways to belong, so there's the ways to belong and the ways to get us a crap done, turn it down a little bit, that's your culture and the ways to belong or the codified space of, you know, to be softway, this is us, we are softway. This is the this is the, the coat of arms we wear, and everything else. Those ways become embraced and heralded. And we know that, Oh, you just said that language, you are you a softway person. And yeah, and then you share that, well, that's the same, people will get that, but every CEO, for example, has to start in that space and not be shooting on themselves. If they can discover and go into that space, then they can share themselves in that space. And then they can create that culture. And maybe they can even do that in a way that if they style it with the the economic requirements for ROI for whatever funding they might be getting, or they might even choose a different funding source. Now we don't like your funding, we're gonna go to this one, we hear that this group out of San Francisco has a very high people value, so we're gonna go talk to them and spend the next 12 months building a relationship with them to see if we're a good, a good group, we can belong and form a great company together. So there's, there's a way

Jeff Ma  
this is a challenging, I guess, topic to help leaders really understand and grasp and, uh, definitely apply, especially in this day and age. But I love the way you've positioned it. I love heart base leading and how that really put some shape around what that needs to look like. And it gives a different perspective of how to approach it. So it's eye opening for me, and I appreciate the time you've taken today to come share that with us.

Paul Haury  
I I'm just excited even have a space like this to share this kind of stuff. Because I've I've had my fair share of you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know what you're thinking, interact. I've even had one couple of situations like you need to think less like a woman. And oh, yeah, it's that kind of stuff. Because look, we're talking, we're talking about belonging, just like, you know, it was like to start talking about love as a business strategy. You end up with the same concept of belonging is just the feely stuff. Now, belonging is the space where you have the highest performing teams on Earth groups of people on Earth. And that's how we're designed just because the business world took a left turn and missed on the Oh, yeah, this is what it means to be human thing. Didn't make that turn, even if everybody went that way for a time. The right turn.

Jeff Ma  
I always look people right in the eye and tell them these are not soft skills. These are critical skills. Yeah. They're like, a little eye roll. And you're like, Oh, you'll see.

Paul Haury  
So okay, this is funny that you said so I would this was a few years ago. That's when I knew this feely stuff. And so I'm sitting there. And so I start looking away. As he's talking. He goes, aren't we in this meeting together? And I went, oh, so my paying attention and being present with you did matter. I'm gonna use that I love it. Oh, it was funny. And it was like, and then what was interesting is later on, we were talking to you guys, people have been walking into my office. And he has, I've been in a hole because I won't look up for my email. And this is the space where when somebody, like if I told you, this is what you should do, you'd be like, now figure it out for myself get away from each other, if I'm sharing and story, because our mind is always in story and retelling of story. But if I share a story and I think give an experience then all of a sudden, oh, now we just landed in misbelief. Like, like can I ask you a question? Yeah. Okay, I want to know, when you went from this is how we've been doing things to oh, this is not how we should be doing things. I want to try it this way that when you went into that misbelief to new belief, when was yours?

Jeff Ma  
Those are all different milestones, sir, I think I think I think there is an element of it from the book. timeline, from the beginning of that story, there's an inside part of me that already knew that this is not how we want to do things. So there's already a misbelief. In what's going on. Now, I think the challenge many people have, and I did too, was how to connect that to what to believe in instead, and want to try. And those are two separate steps as well. Because there's a different time in that timeline where I was like, You know what I want to believe in this. There's a level of commitment that just comes it comes after awareness, and then understanding, and then commitment. And those are separate steps that take their own time as well, where I'm like, You know what, I finally understand what it is that I want to want to make a difference through. And that commitments an extra step where I'm like, well, am I ready to make a change? Am I ready to do that? And then the last part of your question is, like, when did you know? When did you decide to try? And that's a separate time, because literally, I had to then decide, you know, these are the actual steps I want to take. And there's no it's not on a calendar anywhere. But in my mind these, this is this growth path that we try to help others through as well, because everyone's path will look different. Some people, some people talk to us and go home and turn their lives upside down, because they're like, the light bulb is on and it just clicks. And it makes sense.

Paul Haury  
I can't get into this at that point of view. misleaded can't get turned off now. 

Jeff Ma  
Oh well, we know that's not true. But But other people, other people will, will sit on this for two years and come back and say, You know what it finally clicked when somebody said to me, it finally makes sense. When I look back, and I look at the trail of dead bodies behind me. And I'm just like, oh, that's what happened. And every and that's why I called it a case for change earlier, because it's different for everybody. It's a personal case for change.

Paul Haury  
And okay, so that's right there. That's good. That's the answer for how change happens. Even if we're looking at inside the system, somebody goes through and has all that same level of, Oh, I know it and I know it, but I'm, I'm almost there. And they just my experiences, they need some buddy. And back to tie it to belonging to go with. And this, I like the haunted house model. I might have mentioned it before, and I just, I'm just already connected the dots. I mean, you go, you don't go into a haunted house alone. But you will go with a best friend. And it'll scare the crap out of you. And he will laugh your butt off? Would you go along? No. Which you will dang go, you'll go with a friend. Yeah. And that's, it's that same thing. So maybe we actually just need to create a much a much more open invitation for people to belong, which, which is hard, because we don't, we all have to belong. But we don't all belong with everybody. But we do have to belong, because that's how we're wired. .

Jeff Ma  
Yeah And the way we the way we approach that is we, we strive to make tangible efforts in the environment that we create, knowing that not everyone can always belong in every context. But setting the standard that at least sets the expectations that we will strive to do so. Because while you cannot, in my opinion, create a perfectly belonging organization, especially as you scale, you're always going to have differences, you're always going to have humans in the in the mix, which will create conflict or create feelings and assumptions and other things. It's very human. But to us, the goal isn't Oh, look at this utopia of belonging where everyone just is just always warm and fuzzy. But on the contrary, it's a place where I can come and say, Hey, hello, I don't feel like I belong. And, and can somebody help me and will will say, Oh, that wasn't our intent. But let's talk about it. Let's figure it out. Because we value that together.

Paul Haury  
And so And absolutely, and that's, that's a that's a that's a brilliant point with this.

There's a hate hate even saying this. Ah, belonging isn't permanent. Like, I'm not gonna cry. I lost my dad. Last year at the end of the year.

We're all blind because it's human. It's temporary. We're temporary here. We're gonna go somewhere else. I mean, I I mean, I've died before so I've been in a different place, which is crazy. But I've been away from the space where I was away from everybody I loved and I was in a great place. Don't me wrong. I was joyous, cheerful laughing. I've got a little write up on in one of the stories But I knew I wasn't with I wasn't going to be with Elisa Elisa is my better half. And, and, and animals like she's not here. And we can we can, we can have a workplace where we spend eight to 10 hours a day where we're not with people we love. That's, that's, that's like a living death, you're slowly just dead for 2000 if we just do the minimum 2080 hours and a full time job a year. And it doesn't have to be that way. But to be in the place where you belong means you're going to share what the values is the core values that matter most together, you won't be identical, you have other values, but you just can't be. You can't have a core value that's against those values for that to actually work your butt off. And then there's also the belief. You got to say, I love what we're doing here. We're changing the world. I'm doing the smallest thing, this is my role. But I know that person's life is better. And I mean, I had one of my favorite stories from fulcrum. At How much time do we have left?

Jeff Ma  
Negative 10 minutes? Oh, but it's okay. There's no rules for it.

Paul Haury  
Okay. So my former company we made some boring as hell. Automated asset lifecycle management, through mobile devices over the cell cellular infrastructure. Wow. Really advanced, very simplistic way to do it and make it work for an end like Verizon AT&T, T Mobile, they were all the clients and now Airtel, India, so but made this product and and I was that when we're talking, we do show Intel's for the whole company so that people would know each other's lives as well as what they were working on cross the company. So they knew they were all contributing to making the same company keep going. And it's a beautiful way to do this. And it was the whole company stops 15 to 20 minutes, sometimes a half hour. And we just show and tell and celebrate. And I remember sitting, I was listening to the developers talk and everything I said, so I'm going to ask, I said, I'm going to ask you guys this. I was just in Home Depot. And I watched the guy use one of the devices that we use, and they were able to keep track of everything that was in that store inventory and find it for people instead of getting frustrated and hating their life. I said, I want to ask you to think about, you're not making a software product, you're making somebody's life better. You're saving people's marriages and permanent relationships, and so on. I says this guy just when I said, Can you help me find this? He says, oh, yeah, oh, I got this new thing on my phone, I can take you right to where it is. And the joy on his face was a state of relief from software development of what he had before that didn't work at all. And so I asked, I asked that, that my development group in that company, can you think this way you are saving marriages and life, because everybody gets happier? everybody prospers better, and so on if you're going that direction, so and then I'm like, please just let the stick somewhere. And I found out later that one of the top developer architects went to the support space and the CFO and said, Who can I talk to? To find out where I can get these stories from people so I can really know how our software is changing people's lives. And it's like, Yes, that's it right there. That's the space where people are extending their belonging internally as the fulcrum tribe, to now having the belonging include not just this, the CEO or making the decision to use our software, but the person that the software sits in the hands in the middle of somewhere in the United States at a cell tower, and is able to actually do the job without the frustration and make their life easier, because they're gonna go home. They're gonna be a better father, mother, son, daughter. You know, they whatever you want, whatever language you'd like to use in that space, that's what will happen. And it was just one of those things where it was just like, it was so cool. And that he went through the effort to go and find and seek it out. He didn't have to be told that it wasn't that and that's that. That's the belonging space. Yeah. That we choose for each other. And that's why I always I put it, it's more of a give get than a get give. The Do you feel it then you We get higher engagement, that's a get give. Belonging is give get. And the neurobiology is really cool about that. But I won't go into that space right now. But that's the place where where we know that because we don't like if something goes wrong. And if I dropped the ball or you dropped the ball and we're in this, we're in a pursuit of something, we don't go, blah, blah, blah, we're like, oh, man, you dropped the ball, what do we need to have this not happen again, or thing. So okay, get back up, we're gonna get through this. And we, we, we proactively hit things. In a space, that would mean we would normally be reactive in the current standard model of business.

Jeff Ma  
And everything you described is, is really a great perspective and a summation of why both of us really do what we do, we call it bringing humanity back to the workplace, but for the very reasons that you just described because it affects lives affects how we show up in our lives, how we how much we enjoy these, these 1000s of hours we pour into work is such a big part of our life, what are we working for, if not for our own happiness, our own health, our own families and things like that. So you summed up a great perspective, another way to look at that and how belonging is at the helm of really purpose and purpose driven kind of resilience in our in our in our work? And I? I love it. I really, I have a lot more questions, actually. So maybe we'll get you back on the show, to keep diving into this. But for now, I just want to thank you for the time you spent in the conversation we had today is amazing. Thank you so much.

Paul Haury  
Thank you, what a joy, man. Thanks.

Jeff Ma  
Yeah, and I hope the listeners enjoyed this as well. Thank you to listeners who have tuned in this week, we have a new episode out every week for you with a new guest. And if you haven't checked out the book already, please do Love as a Business Strategy. Don't forget to leave a review for the book for the podcast, subscribe rate, tell friends, all that good stuff. Because we enjoy doing that I enjoy doing this. I hope everybody enjoys what they get out of this as well, especially from Paul today who's just given just some, just some wisdom bombs for all of us. So thank you so much, Paul once again, and thanks to the listeners. we'll see everybody next week.