Jeff Ma
Hello and welcome to love as if is the strategy a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We're here to talk about business. We want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from and we believe that humanity love should be at the center of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. And I want to try something a little bit different today. I've brought together people who might be familiar with, but it's Maggie McClurkin. Hello, Maggie. Hello, and Chris Pitre. Hey, Chris. Hello. And we worked together on the book, Chris was a co author with myself, Maggie ran the entire basically made sure we got the book written. And she wrote the foreword. And so we had an idea to get together and, you know, just start, I guess we call it a book club. Start at the beginning of the book. And once in a while, have these kind of off the cuff kind of chats around. And we divide the book very intentionally into different chapters and different sections. And we think that there can be just learning lessons, discussions and new revelations to come out of discussing it today. And so, today, we're gonna be talking about the foreword. One of a fan favorite of you, oh, when we share the book out, people always coming back telling us about how the forum itself was already impactful for the book even begin, written by of course, the amazing Maggie McClurkin here. So no icebreakers, none of that we're gonna dive right in. And I think one of the themes of the foreword, Maggie was around fear. I think you had some, I mean, you have some stories of like, previous jobs, right of like, fear in the workplace.

Maggie McClurkin
Yep. In a previous job, there was this fear that I could lose my job at any point, or do something that would not just like, disappoint someone, but like, really make them lose my trust. And like, I would have to earn it back in spades and like, would almost be on this unofficial form of probation in their mind. And that's happened even with bosses that like, had not ill intention. I can think of one instance, where I was working for a nonprofit right out of college, and I was on their marketing team. And we were practicing or experimenting with using text messages to send to people. And I accidentally sent the wrong text to the wrong group of people. And it was a total accident. And it was my first time using the software. And I got yelled at. And like, every time after that, I was asked to show my work to my boss before I sent a text out. Because the trust was lost. And it wasn't, it wasn't even like a like, I was fine. I wasn't like crying or beating myself up that much about it. But I didn't know that, oh, they don't trust me with this anymore. That sucks. So

Jeff Ma
you just use your mind when when they're I don't know if you guys remember back in the day, we we've done this our companies in lot of different things for a while we were big on Snapchat every week, and I was put in charge of a client's Snapchat account. And this is back when Snapchat I mean, Snapchat, still complicated as an app, but this is back when it was user friendliness was not even, you know, in their vocabulary. And so I was put in charge of this account and I'd have to log into it and post things like live you know, Snapchat was like very, very live at the time. It's like everything had to be recorded in the moment hit Go is 10 second increments, that's what Snapchat was. And I remember I was by a pool in my neighborhood with my kids on a weekend and my kids are being real cute. So I took my phone out and I snapped a bunch of things and I posted it I got a message that was like you're posting you're posting on the clients account. I absolutely freaked out and and it reminded me of that because literally when I got kind of the the message that things were wrong, it was really like I think back to it also kind of like as a good reminder of what you just shared Maggie was like, there was no part of that was like, What's wrong with you? Why did this happen like this? It was literally like, we have a crisis. We have a problem to fix. Like nobody put any blame on me. Nobody kind of like hung me out. To try and try to like, you know, like, put the problem got solved. We talked about it later, but really just as like, how do we avoid this next time? And nobody made me feel bad about it. And nobody, like added anything new to like, make sure I never did it again, like, like beyond just like making sure I, I figured something out, right. And so your story just reminded me of that, because this is a huge, it's something I took for granted in the moment. But I think back to it, I was like, you know, that was a big deal. There's a lot of money's on the line as well, a lot of it wasn't just the client that could have an issue with it. And so, anyway, I thought I'd share that random bit.

Chris Pitre
Yeah, I think that there. Those types of stories are prevalent, I think I to me, if you are in some sort of corporate position, and you haven't had any of those experiences yet, are you really working? Like, like, Are you are you still playing in? He just dressing up? So I think that there, to me, even I've had those sort of situations like, oh, I sent the wrong email to the wrong person. Grant, I've never done Yes, in derogatory emails to the wrong person. That's, that's where I draw the line. But I have made those types of mistakes. And, for me, I keep going back to like what Maggie wrote in that forward, about, like, operating with no fear. And, you know, and talking to so many different executives, that's all they see in their organizations is that fear, you know, and it's not so much based on anything that's actually happened to them in the organization or by set executive. It's just, you know, you know, groomed and conditioned and reinforced and subtle and nuanced ways, to the point where, you know, people are challenged and struggling with just being honest and open with their, you know, chief executives, you know, and with their senior leaders, because they don't see them as human first, they see them as titles. Right. And I think that that's, that's always been the odd thing about working in this corporate space, is that, you know, I don't know, if I was just naive. I'm like, everybody's a human, right? We all put our pants together, that's me, because my mom was like, everybody put them up on the put on the pants one leg at a time, just like me. It's just, that's the mentality. So, you know, when I meet people, I just think of them as human, not as the titles first. But that's not, that's not always the case. And if you, if you all of a sudden throw me into a sales conversation, I do change that mindset. I'm like, they're a customer, they might have something and I might be unsettling, right. But I think that fear, and it's oftentimes around titles, but it seeps into other things. It changes sort of the complexion of a lot of conversations, and oftentimes, it's invisible.

Jeff Ma
Yeah. I think when it comes to fear, it feels like as humans, fear will never go away, per se. But I think it's the type of fear that we talk about and how we get through it per se, because like, I still get afraid all the time of screwing up or looking bad. You know, I'm afraid of letting people down things like that. But I think there's a much more I think, Maggie, you put it against Maslow's hierarchy of like, of needs. I think, Maggie you say it than I do was

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah I mean, there's like, if you were talking Jeff about like, there still always going to be fear there and into me like, yes, but also like, and I gave the example of my current job now with you guys that whenever in a previous job, if I were to get a phone call, or an email from my boss, it was an immediate like real fear that like, Oh, I'm going to be fired right now. Like, this is what this call is for, or I'm going to be in trouble. He's, there would be times he called me just to see where I was like, just to make sure I was working. So there was just like, constant fear of like, I need to prove my worth to this person all the time. But now like if Moh says he needs to chat, there is like a little fear, but not because I'm afraid I'm gonna lose my job, but because I'm probably going to have to have a tough conversation with him that I just don't want to happen. I just don't want to. It's not it's never like, oh, well, this is the end for me, like, pack up my desk and go and so how I compare it to the Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs was like, I feel secure and safe in the fact that like, nothing I unintentionally do, will probably end my job here at Softway. There are definitely things I could do on purpose. Things that I could do consciously. But as far as like accidents, or conflicts or mistakes or learnings or anything like that, I really do have that security that, um, it might be tough like getting through the the thing and having those conversations and learning from whatever I messed up on. But I never, I never at this point, it's taken me some time to deconstruct from previous bosses, but I never think my job is at stake, if I make one mistake, ever. And so I think that there's a less severe version of fear. And I think Chris said it best of like, it may be even as just more desire to people please, instead of a fear.

Chris Pitre
No, I think that that's, that's critical. And we, we, when you get that desire to please or to make others successful, or to help others, right, like, you put more pressure on yourself. So what you're, you're thinking about is performing against that pressure, and not sort of failing in that performance. But like, when I think about fear, to me, sometimes it's irrational. It's like, someone has never fired me for this before. I've never seen anybody get fired for this, but I'm still afraid like, it can happen to me, I could be the first right. And we create these scenarios, like long drawn out sort of situations where it's like, a lot would have to be true to come to that conclusion. Right. And a lot of things would have to happen serendipitously, in order for that outcome to be real. And I've had, I've had a friend who used to come up with these crazy scenarios before a meeting or one on one with it with our mutual boss. Be like, Okay, wait, I'll just I want to I'm gonna retell what I just heard and see if it makes sense. So you're saying that, because you didn't answer your phone at this time, when we all know that you drop your child off, you think that the one on one that was set is going to be the, the the firing of you, when we have eight deliverables that are due on billable, like, Wait, like, I want to make sure that I'm getting your concern, right. And, you know, it's just it's, it's real for people. And, you know, I think the, in talking to a CEO even just this week, that that type of fear is what keeps them up at night. Because on the other side of that fear is the fear of being misperceived as an as a leader, I think, right? The the misinterpretation of a conversation, or the oversight of a conversation, I didn't know you needed to hear from you in that moment. And because of that, you walked away with this impending doom situation and scenario that you think is going to end in ultimately, your demise and the end of your livelihood, career, whatever. And that's not at all in my head. And had I known that that was what you're gonna walk away with, I am now in fear that every time I leave the room or leave a conversation or leave an interaction, someone's walk away with that. So you overcorrect and over engineer, and for me now where I am, like, I have to make sure that my words are not leaving an impression that I don't intend to leave, you know, and, you know, making sure that you know, conversations that I have are, are not going to create that type of fear. And so when one side walks in fear, it automatically makes the other side also operate in that fear, too. So it's not like this, you know, one sided coin, right, every it creates a reaction.

Jeff Ma
Yeah, I just think about this, actually, just last week, because I was thinking about how if, if I walk into a meeting late, which I've done a lot, just today, I apologize. But But just recently, if I walk into a meeting late, I still have this like, old gut reaction to be like, what's my excuse me, like, what do I need to like, do I need to, like, make this more tragic or believable, or something to not look so bad, right? And I think when I when I'm doing that in a space that's like, there's leadership or you know, perceived kind of fear. You know, I think it's a natural, just natural reaction, we have to like, make sure we're covered. And to be able to come in and say, I literally just saw the wrong time on my calendar, like I literally just messed up is very freeing to be able to do that. But one of the things when you said the two way street thing got me thinking that like, what's so important was also that I find that I have that tendency when I'm the leader to like when I'm the leader and I show up late. I also go I don't want to like look, but I think it's so important that As a leader, I also come in space and say, I messed up. Like, I totally just missed this, or I did something really boneheaded or whatever. And I'm sorry, because that gives the permission. I think people don't realize enough that fear kind of exists in all these places that we demand perfection, and we demand performance amongst from everyone, and we don't allow people to be real and human. And yeah, if I keep doing it, somebody just talk to me, but um, I think, I think that's where I really caught myself. Earlier this week. I think, Maggie, you were there. Because I can't. Sorry, Maggie I keep showing up late. But, but, but literally, it's just like, I had one with Maggie's, I was like, I just thought this meeting was at a different time. And I'm sorry. And like, I know, that wasn't a big deal. Maggie didn't know we didn't make it out of it. But I think about it now. Because it's like, in little ways like that. I think it could create or remove fear, depending on how we handle this.

Maggie McClurkin
Now, so I think that oh, sorry. Go ahead, Chris.

Chris Pitre
I was actually gonna ask you a question, Maggie. Because I'm going back to your situation with that boss like, check on you in ways that were like very concerning to hear. If he would have actually opened up to you and said, Maggie, I'm afraid that you're going to leave me, which is why I check on you all the time? Or why I'm afraid to or why I'm not being, you know, sort of forward with you, in certain ways, would have changed your reaction? Or would that have sort of made you feel weird, or awkward?

Maggie McClurkin
Um, well, to be fair, I don't think that was the motivation behind this.

Chris Pitre
I'm giving him too much credit for that, too. But if that was a reason, if he were to be vulnerable in that way with you, after all of that type of sort of environment building, how would you respond to it?

Maggie McClurkin
I think it would have depended, I guess on like, how, what he said, because if it was like, I relieve me, like, you can't ever be here. Like that. Of course, it makes me uncomfortable. Because business is business, no one stays somewhere forever, except for very few people. And then it also was like, I was very young, I think I was 23 or four at the time. So it was like, I'm obviously not staying here forever. But I don't know if he had if he had been vulnerable about literally anything about his life in general. Yeah, I feel like I would have at least had a basis of some sort of relationship to be like, Okay, I know that he at least likes me as a human. And so therefore, we can move forward in building a, like, professional relationship. That, I don't know. It's hard to imagine him ever doing that. That's why I'm struggling to answer this question.

Jeff Ma
A long time ago, maybe he's changed.

Maggie McClurkin
But yeah, but I just think I'm like, everything y'all are saying is, is making me think of just the fact that like that fear and that anxiety is so rampant in like, the millennial Gen Z generation. And it's really popular topic on social media right now. It's like talk about corporate anxiety. And have you guys ever heard the term Green Dot watchers?

Jeff Ma
No, I haven't.

Maggie McClurkin
It's like, companies who watch people's chat statuses. Make sure they're online at all times. Oh my gosh, like that's like, I have friends that work for companies that are quote unquote, Green Dot watchers. And they like get nervous if they take too long to go to the bathroom. Or like I say things like that.

Jeff Ma
I saw a tick, I was wondering what I saw tick tock of a guy who built the machine that would just move his mouse every every minute, just to while he's working.

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah, so that your screen doesn't fall asleep. And then you're not active on on the Microsoft Teams or Google Chat or slack or whatever you use, but it's, it's so prevalent in like, AI, am just, again, just thankful because if I worked for an organization like that, what I would be doing would be looking for a way out as soon as possible. And I don't think I think people think leaders who implement those kinds of policies or like create that kind of culture think that it has to directly ties to performance and like if you're working eight full hours or you appear to be working eight full hours you get more done but personally, I love taking my long lunch in gym break in the middle of the day. Like that is what's best for me and my productivity. Like if I don't have that like little break in the middle of the day like move my body and not think about work like Forget it for the rest of the day. I don't, I am not, I'll be there. But I'm not thinking I'm just thinking about all the things I want to do, or, you know, when I'm going to be able to work out afterwards, you know, gonna be able to cook and all these things. And, and so I, I'm so thankful that I'm not even fearful if I'm like, not online for over an hour on my lunch break, because I'm, I'm going to be back and people trust it out. So get my stuff done. Right, you know, no way. I mean, so I don't know.

Chris Pitre
But I'm like sitting here. And I'm thinking like, can you imagine like, I'm just, I'm going to a place where someone taps me on the shoulder with having a four year degree student loans and says, Hey, Chris, your job is to see when people go, you know, red or inactive. And you let me know, as soon as that happens, you're basically watching the screen to see who's red. And then it's your job to go and run out of the flagpole and make sure that everybody knows there's some employees somewhere, regardless of what's going on, who's red? And that's like your job, right? Like, yeah, I just, I hear that. And I think of all of the wasted time, money, system systems technology tools that we could be solving much bigger problems out of an organization. And that's, that's literally, what is on the top leaders mind is like, Is my team actually working? at it? They're productive, not for meeting our goals. Like, but like, am I paying like, are they literally earning every single penny that we paid them by being available to us, even if the work they're doing is, is not necessarily earning value, or, you know, bring us or our customers, you know, additional worth, customer revenue? I, I'm sitting there, I'm like, that would be, I don't know what I would do if someone tapped me on the shoulder and said, That's your new assignment.

Jeff Ma
I mean, so this is actually I this, this just brought up a another song from Tiktok again, but maybe this points out a problem I have, okay. I was on Tik Tok, just just yesterday, maybe. And there, there was this video of a guy who posted a story. And he didn't specify details of the company or anything, we post a story saying that someone was leaving this company that he worked for. And he was kind of passing down his job that his main task he did that would take him one or two days, every week to do this report type thing. And this dude inherited and inherited that that task from the guy. And he said within the first day or two, that they audit that this guy just wrote a script that automated that down and basically optimize it down to like a five minute script. And so he took that, and he would run it every Monday, and then take the day off, basically, and then send the report by the end of the week. And everyone's like, Oh, great job. And he did this for years and years. And he said, even one time, when he was out for vacation or whatever, and someone else had to do it. He made he taught them the manual way to do it. And then people are like, how do you do this in a day? How do you do today? It's like, everyone's like thinking he's like this dude like this amazing, like, and, and that's, that's not the part of the story. I mean, that story is hilarious. But also, you know, in the same vein that we're talking about about, like, imagine what this guy could do, if he applied that ingenuity to the rest of the business, like he just streamlined a process down to like a percent of what it was. But what blew my mind was, as I do with all tiktoks interest me, I start scrolling through comments. And so I'm just scrolling through comments. And when we say bring humanity back to the workplace, those comments are what I'm talking about. Because while I'm sitting there going, Man, this, this business could do so much better to like, get some talent like this in a place where they care and like want to contribute. But the comments were all like, just like, congratulating this guy and telling this guy how he's a hero and like, like, should have milked it for more and all given all the finding more and so when we when people come and ask us like What do you mean like bring humanity back to the work but he's saying he man he's not in the workplace. I'm like, yeah, it's not because look at the trend of like work just being a four letter word to people like work being negative inherently you don't say anything else about it. You don't have to give any context like Oh, I got work. It was like I'm sorry. Like, I'm like, like literally because I work at night sometimes we we get stuff done and I actually don't mind at all because it's my choice to do so and I plan around my life in my schedule. My kids go to bed, but when I tell my friends, I can't and I got some room to like, oh man sucks. Your company sucks, man. I don't like I can't do that make you do that. I'm like, no, nobody made me do this. Like I could have scheduled other ways, but this works best I got to work some people in India and I don't want to let them down. And they're like, they just don't get like they cannot fathom that that's the case. They're like, you're like, your boss sucks. I'm like, I'm my boss most of the time, like, like, and so when we say bring him in that work was I just can't get over the fear of like, just corporate that still sits in our environments. After all, this is coming forward, you know?

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah, that also reminds me of like the turn that happened recently, where a lot of women like came out, speaking about how they got negative responses from their bosses, when they had to let them know that they have had a miscarriage. And so they would like some time off from work. And just like the, just the backlash that all that got or like, there was one woman, there's this like, picture that she posted of like, she was literally in labor. In the hospital, she had her laptop out because she was trying to send an email to her boss to be like, hey, so sorry, I'm not going to be at work like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the response was something along the lines of like, I wonder why like, this wasn't more scheduled or planned or like some, I'm butchering it word for word, but like, that was the gist of it. And it's just crazy, like the amount of people that relate to that. And, and think the same thing, because I'm thinking like, those things have happened in our organization. In those women were given the freedom to do what they need to do no questions asked, really, until they came back and they were ready to share and they were ready to talk about it. Really, if if something like that happened to me, I know, all I would need to do is send one text to someone doesn't matter who be like, Hey, I'm taking a week, personal time something came up. Maybe like, okay, see, when you get back? We'll we'll take care of it. I don't I don't think people realize the value in that that much. Because when you're thinking about it in a different way, it's like, oh, well, then wouldn't everybody just like say they need a week all the time, or like, when wont that get annoying having to like pick up people slack all the time. And people don't do it all the time. Like they don't like when you're given that freedom, people, like 99% of people don't abuse that,

Jeff Ma
and arguably work harder. Yeah.

Maggie McClurkin
Exactly. And so, yeah,

Chris Pitre
you bring up a good point. And that because that's typically the pushback that we get is people who are worried about the edge case of some bad actor taking advantage of everything all at once. It's like, if you hire a team of only bad actors, I have to now wonder and question, who's doing the hiring and if they are a bad actor, because you are likely hiring people that are just like you, right? But more often than not, I promise you that people are not there to take advantage people are not showing up trying to do their worst work possible. People are there to really bring forward you know, their best than and do their best and sort of offer their best. But so many people push back on these sort of New Age ideas because they think only of the bad actors who are going to somehow take advantage of the entire system and bring it all down and then it's going to be complete and utter chaos. And so these policies that we've been operating under for so long, you know, they served us so well that we can't change it and if we change it you know, you know our CDs are gonna burn down and wolves are gonna roam the streets and our women and children we pillage and I all of these like situations arise just from the idea of like actually trusting someone

Jeff Ma
you don't you know, it's really cool is actually when when this happens like we we generally like we genuinely for the most part everyone I can think of in the organization and I'm sorry our organization it is not perfect just just to be clear I keep i I catch myself but I just want to share that like like I've seen so many times when people genuinely and we know this because relationships that we can tell that like we really just like really wanted to be here and we just cannot for personal reasons for whatever's going on. And like the first thing that happens when we say we need that we need that help we need that space is like everyone like like Maggie says no questions as we come and we try to solve it we just get we just rally around and we keep the business going and keep the world going. I've seen so many times that actually leads to a lot of the like the T shaped this of our team comes from the swarming around a hole that needs to be filled because someone needed someone has something happened like Chris when you had a situation with your father in the hospital you're very critical player in a lot of different things and like it wasn't situation was like Oh Chris, but we still need you we still like and like we did what we could. Not everything was perfect. But we also had a lot of opportunities to learn in that space and figure things out for ourselves. like this weird extra bonus of stepping in uncomfortable places that you wouldn't otherwise, because we really not, we didn't want to let you down, we want to do the job as good as you would have that you can come back to something that was done right. And so we tried our best to learn that space as well, I thought that was a really interesting side effect of,of that culture.

Chris Pitre
And I like in that time period where, you know, really critical care issue came up and I had no predictability. I didn't like, I couldn't schedule anything with the doctors that, you know, if anybody has ever, ever had to take care of a sick parent, you know, that you have absolutely no control over the scheduling. Right. And, you know, knowing that one, I no point in the back of my head was thinking like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna lose my job, because I have to head out. But also, there was also never that guilt coming back to you. Because even if that is not present, sometimes there is a guilt that gets sort of set back your way, like all these guilt trips like, well, since you're going to be out all next week, maybe you should do some of this today. And maybe you should own up to this, and maybe you should take off, right? Like, that never was a part of it either. And you know, when you have an organization where that fear is absent, it allows for one people to be extremely loyal to it opens up so much more opportunity for others to learn and try new things. As you just mentioned, Jeff. And personally, it allowed me to just focus on what needed to get my attention at the time, which was my dad getting his health restored. But you know, I think that that's so hard. But at the same time, people were also reaching out and saying, Hey, how are you? What can I do for you? Right, like, so you have it wasn't just this, like, let Chris go off and do his thing. But people were still genuinely care too. So it was it was means would

Jeff Ma
So our meetings would be like anyone got updates on Chris's dad? anybody got updated? Chris's dad, like, that's our meetings were all started. And when and when it's celebratory, like when it's a time off, or personal time or mental health or whatever. It's like a celebration. It's like, we're like, you're off for the rest of the week. All right, go get it. Enjoy. Like don't, don't call us don't text. Me don't want to hear from you. Have a good one.

Maggie McClurkin
Yeah. And I also just like a small extra piece to that, which I I'm appreciative of, is in all, like kind of preface, this was like a personal anecdote, but like this, about this time, last year, a family member of mine passed away. And it wasn't a family member who was really very close with, but it was a family member, who my father was legally responsible for, based on just her past of mental health issues, and, and all that. And so it ended up being just kind of this big mess for my parents, and they were super stressed and just stretched really thin. And so I texted Moh, and I said, Hey, I need to take the week off and help my parents. So great. Pleased to ease you, we'll see you when you get back. And I remember being asked literally constantly that week by family that was in town or my parents even like, don't need to be at work. Like, shouldn't you be working? I'm like, No, I asked to take this time to help my family not because in because I think there's this like, in Jeff, something you said earlier like to catastrophize your situation. Like I didn't need to be like, Oh, my dad was in a car accident, and I need to go. I can be honest and be like, you know, this, this family member who I'm not very close with, passed away, and it's causing drama and stress for my immediate family. So therefore I want to support them. They need my help right now. And I was so thankful for that. But the the extra piece that I was really thinking about Chris, when you were talking was I came back from that week, not worried that like there's this, there's always this kind of underlying sense of competition, right? Like in business. I don't feel that at Softway. But I felt that before. And there was that there was that sense of like no one took anything from me. No one used that opportunity to get ahead or step over me or forget about me, like I remember specifically, that week that I was out happened to be a week where a lot of company things changed. And I came I Yeah. And I came back, I came back from that week off. I immediately had a meeting with Moh to fill me in on everything that I've missed and an end to tell me that they had already discussed my place in this change and that they had already thought about me, even though I wasn't there. And I think that that was what really meant a lot to me was that I didn't have to be there to fight for my own spot in my own worth in the company but I was thought about in a positive light even when I needed To be away from work.

Jeff Ma
I hadn't heard that part of that story. That's awesome.

Chris Pitre
I keep going back to like listening to you, Maggie and listening to Jeff and like to like, so where does it come from? Where does it like? What, like, what is the origin of it? And like, all I can think about is somebody told me a long time ago that a lot of business strategy is inherited from the military, and specifically wartime, you know, militaristic strategy. And, you know, you think about dominating and penetrating and like, you know, going out to battle, right, like, all that war time mindset was institutionalized inside of business. And the unfortunate thing when you have that mindset, and I read this book called The Wisdom of Psychopaths, but you know, that book is great, it's a great I get, it's out there, but I had a piece, it appealed to me and appeased curiosity. You know, he, the author called out that when you have mercenaries, and these barbarians are like the, at that time, the men who will go out and fight these wars, they didn't know how to shut it off. And so they will come home and bring that same desire for carnage and violence back into the community. So they were supposed to, like, care and show love and concern. And a lot of in a lot of ways, we still have that mindset, we come internally inside of our organizations, and now our, our coworker becomes our enemy, our leader becomes the thing that we have to fight against a war with, and what not, because in many organizations, you are cushioned away from the competitors in a way that you don't have to think about in every single role, who you're competing with and how you're going to win against them. Instead, you're now thinking about the people that you work with as your immediate threat, and the people who might take an opportunity away, who might take your next raise or next recognition away. And so that mindset, you don't know how to switch between competitive mode, and then internal growth, that support and sort of care mode. And so when you are intentional and those mindsets, is what I'm thinking like, you can easily turn your co worker into your competitor and therefore still operate in war time when you should be in community building time, right?

Jeff Ma
Yeah. And I think as a takeaway for all this, because this is ultimately a podcast I forgot, we're recording. I guess as as a takeaway for all this. I would say that we talk about trust a lot. I mean, trust is basically not the silver bullet, but it is the beginning of the answer for many, many, many, many things. But I think people don't always the simplest way I can put it for me why? And how any of this is possible. Again, it's more so in some pockets, not perfect everywhere. But for me, all the stories we just shared, the common theme is not just trust, but there's trust of intent. Right? So it's like, trust is one thing, and I do trust, we have trust in spades in all sorts of ways. But what we're describing when people can say, hey, I need a week off, and no questions asked what we're describing when we say, Sure, no problem we got you covered is we trust each other's intent to the point that, you know, it's not, you don't have to become best friends, you don't have to become, you know, family as people would record it. No, it's just, I trust that you, you care about what we're doing here, you care about me, you care about the outcomes here, and you wouldn't do anything to jeopardize that. And that you're using your best judgment, like those types of and that just comes from relationships that comes from that type of trust, that level of trust. And, you know, to me, that's the takeaway, if there's any is that you got to build relationships, you got to build that type of trust with people. And that only comes through knowing people at a deeper level, more so than their work output more so than their work habits and the predictive things that they can do. But also build a little bit of vulnerability between each other. Once you get to know each other, then you you'll start being able to say, You know what, you know, like, I know that that's, that's sucky and that other people might take advantage of the situation but I know you're not taking advantage situation you are you have your heart is in the right place. Yeah, that's how well, this was more than we bargained for. So thank you for staying through the whole episode to Maggie and Chris, and also the audience. If you're still with us. Let us know if you like this type of episode. Sometimes, we start talking and we just we have lots to say at times like why not record it? If you enjoyed it, let us know. Give us that feedback. If you didn't, also let us know we can take it, but we'd love your feedback. Thank you so much listeners. New episodes every week. Check out our book Love as a Business Strategy. Maggie wrote that foreword about fear. So it's in there go give it another read. And as always subscribe, rate and tell a friend and we'll see you next time...