Jeff Ma
I'm sure you've heard before the term, it gets lonely at the top. Well, this statement doesn't just apply to CEOs and presidents, we think that there's a larger message here and that it's a truth that a lot of us deal with in the workplace. The higher up you go, the lonelier it gets, but it doesn't have to be that way. In this episode, we discuss what it really means to be lonely at the top and what to do about it. Enjoy the show.

Hello, and welcome to love as a business strategy, a podcast that brings humanity to the workplace. We are here to talk about business, but we want to tackle topics that most business leaders shy away from we believe that humanity and love should be at the centre of every successful business. I'm your host, Jeff Ma. I'm a director at Softway, which is a technology company that helps transform company cultures. And I am joined today by president CEO, and good friend Mohammad Anwar. Hello, Mo. How are you doing?

Mohammad Anwar
Hey, Jeff. Hey, Frank.

Jeff Ma
I haven't introduced Frank yet. You can't say hi, Frank. He doesn't exist.

Frank Danna
Everyone, very excited to be here. And I also have Jeff here. He's also here.

Jeff Ma
We also have a director of Softway Frank Danna Frank, welcome to the show.

Frank Danna
Hey, Jeff, hey, Mohammad.

Jeff Ma
See he can do that because Mohammad's already anyway. So we've worked on. No big deal, just our 60th episode, you should know this by now. But you know, hey, as we do know, every episode, we dive into one element of business strategy, and we test our theory of love against it. Today, we have the three of us coming together, to have a little bit of discussion around a very interesting topic. There's a saying that we've all heard before, I'm sure in the audience as well, is that it's lonely at the top. And I think the context can be used in many different ways. But a lot of times, we hear this a lot, actually, from business leaders, especially CEOs, you know, the very tops of organisations where you know, you have no one above you, and you have no one beside you at your level. And the same kind of goes to kind of illustrate the the isolation and the problems you have to deal with alone. And, you know, you have very little support in the traditional sense and guidance and things like that. And it's something that we've thought a lot about, obviously, all three of us are not at the top, we're actually at different levels, technically, but Mohammad, you've been at the top. And so I'll start with you, I'll start from the top. What does this thing mean to you? And what how does it pertain to our story, because I want the audience to understand why we want to talk about this today.

Mohammad Anwar
Sure, so I think I might be a good representative, to the leaders out there at various levels, because you know, the loneliness starts as you start climbing the ladders of leadership. And the higher you get, it could probably get exacerbated like it could become more, more of a void. And you experience being alone, making tough decisions, having to leave the company doing things and those are your decisions and the burden of taking those decisions falls on your shoulder. And there's a lot of reality to it. And, you know, that's something that I can probably imagine many leaders out there feel at some portion in time in their career. And I think it's a real thing, I think there's a lot of been a lot of circumstances in situations where you might have to make a decision or take a decision that not everybody else agrees with. And thereby you are alone in that decision. space and you're having to own that decision and take responsibility for that decision. And it's solely yours, right? The buck stops with us. So there are many, many different angles, you can see how it just comes back to that singular person. And so and the higher you go in your leadership capacity, the more you are facing situations where you are alone in for a lot of the outcomes are the buck stops with you. The decision making all of that observed to that one singular person at times and that leaves you out feeling like at times you are alone in this in this journey of leading people leading organisations.

Jeff Ma
Frank Frank, have you ever felt lonely at the top of anything even if you're not the CEO, but how does this pertain to you?

Frank Danna
Well, I was gonna say that's a very that's you know, you're for all those folks that want to be CEOs out there. You know, here we go. This is it. This is the commercial that sell Is it the sells that I feel like in creating and running a small business, and building a small business where all of the decision making was singularly focused? You know, back in 2014, I found that a small media agency that was eventually acquired by Softway, as we talked about in the book, as well, but I think it's interesting because there is this level of loneliness that comes with being in a very small business and having to make all of the decisions as well. And those decisions are able to impact everything from the top to the bottom of the company, then expanding that to a business like what we're in right now. I think loneliness comes to almost like a self fulfilling prophecy for leaders. Because we say that statement, so often of, you know, hey, it's lonely at the top, you start to alienate others, when you're at the top, almost naturally, it's almost like, like a, like a mechanism that leaders have, when you are, are having to make these types of decisions. And you are afraid of hurting people you're afraid of people being hurt, you're afraid of, maybe them hearing the perspective that you have. And it feels like, you know, from what I felt, even at Softway, not at the very top, but you know, near it, or wherever this this role is that it is very easy to feel lonely, because some parts of you want to protect others from conversations or discussions or feeling like you don't want to put additional burden on their shoulders. And that can have an effect and a toll to alienate you from others.

Jeff Ma
I think other ways that it's, it's, it's come about is when I when I was this is a while back, but when I was just leading, as like, teams of project managers. And as I moved up, and I kind of became a director over project management, I remember that that line was crossed, where I was no longer like, invited to social events, or like I was no longer included in the, in the outings, it was an automatic kind of inclusion in certain chat rooms and things like that, just from the just from that, that level. That that I reached it just automatically. I mean, I didn't feel like my personal relationships that changed anybody. It was just, you know, you're not gonna invite the boss. Certain things outside of that. I think that contributes to a feeling of loneliness, as well, as you get excluded from, you know, some things that might have been important to

Frank Danna
you Do y'all remember a few years ago, we had that, that Christmas party where we did like a rebrand of our brand, with all the neon colours and the stuff and the sticky notes. Remember that? Well, at that party, my wife and I had decided to sit at a table with a group of people. And I was trying to figure out why the group of people that were at that table were some of the loudest rowdiest people. But when I sat down, they all stopped talking. And literally like weren't weren't having conversations with each other. And I got up and walked away. And as soon as I walked away, my wife is still at the table. As soon as I walked away, they started laughing and talking and joking. And she got up and came and got me and she said, Frank, do you know what's going on? And I was like, No, I haven't, what are you talking about? She said, they look at you differently, like you are, in their eyes, a leader in Softway to the point where they, they will change their behaviour around you. And I had never even considered that, like I had, I had always seen myself as one of the team. But that's my how other people perceive you. In certain situations, you try your best to fit in, like, Hello, fellow kids. And ultimately, what ends up happening is that's a meme. By the way, I'm not saying that leaders or not, doesn't matter. But when you're trying to fit in so hard, you actually you actually don't realise that the way people perceive you as a leader is very different from how you perceive yourself. And try as you might, other individuals are also going to be treating you differently, not just you treating them differently, too. And that moment cemented for me, the realisation that my impact as a leader is real, and that people actually change their behaviours around me and then I started to recognise it more often. But up until that point, I didn't realise the impact.

Jeff Ma
So there's an element there's a there's there's different dimensions of this loneliness, we're talking about whether it's decision making, or social engagement or just inclusiveness. And, and, you know, we have to acknowledge that that legitimate power that comes with a role that comes with leadership is always going to have an impact, right? You're not going to be able to be a CEO. That is, you know, You're best friends with all 100 or wherever people in your organisation and treated exactly as an equal, it's just never ever going to happen with legitimate power. So I guess Mohammad, I'll come back to you at the top, you know, what? Are you? Are you lonely at the top? And you know why yes or no. And your current state and your current mindset?

Mohammad Anwar
I think for the longest time, I have felt lonely at Softway for various reasons. And the answers today, I'm not but let me start with where I was because I think that's what will relate to most leaders. But you know, we have an outsized influence on others with the, with our actions with our decisions with what we have to do for the business, the outcomes, and so forth, there's a lot of pressure, right, I know, there's a lot of conversation, especially now about mental health, and, you know, mental health over, you know, results or mental health or, you know, other things that are happening to prioritise it. But most of the time, the leaders are generally held up to a higher standard, they are expected to not make mistakes, they're expected to get things right, they are expected to make sure they, they are also responsible for all of the outcomes of the business. So that expectation not only comes from, you know, stake, shareholders or stakeholders are your team, everybody looks to you to be the person to carry the outcomes of the business more so when it fails, right? When things happen with success, everybody is there to take a piece of it. But when things go wrong, it is the leaders fault. And as the reality of how it is, it's like, once you're considered a leader, you don't get celebrated as much for doing good things, or successful things, you get really scrutinised for even the simplest of the mistake. And when others make a mistake, you are then expected to see that mistake differently and in fact, take accountability for the mistake of others as well. But when it comes to your chance to try to be forgiven for mistakes you've made, you don't get that same reciprocity from the rest of the, the business, and that's the reality. But leaders have to be okay with it, right. So there are many situations like that where leaders are in this really difficult predicament where you cannot afford to make a mistake because of how everybody else perceives you and has expectations from you. So that makes it even harder on the leaders to do what they need to do.

Jeff Ma
I never thought you know, I just now realise that, you know, we give we give them kudos, like in our large team meetings will always give kudos. And it's almost like taboo to give leadership kudos. I mean, I don't mean like overtly taboo, just that you just rarely hear it because it's like, either, or either eight is no good work happening, the leadership, which I disagree with, but it's also like, you know, that we spend a lot of time making sure we like, spread the kudos out to all the people to make sure they are, you know, appreciated and all that stuff. But then, you know, I'm not saying they're supposed to be but I'm just what you just said just pointed out that like, yeah, it's really true that like, down, down, you know, lower in the hierarchy or in you know, perceived hierarchy. There's this need to like, really praise and really focus on the positive things. And the higher up you move, the more it's scrutinised. And the more that we're really only like trying to point out things that go wrong. I just sensed that, as you said that it's not a negative thing, per se. I think it's a reality that that I find really interesting. So sorry, I just interrupted there with that. But

Mohammad Anwar
yeah, no worries. Yeah. So I think I think that's that there are many other realities like that, right? Like, as a leader, you're expected to have empathy towards your team, there were life situations or realities that they're facing. It is a very one way street. The same is not extended to the leadership, who are also human who have similar situations of life, but you're expected to put up with it because you're the leader. Right? And there are situations where, you know, there's far more empathy and sympathy towards a person lower in the organisation who may be facing family problems, issues with kids and our situations like that. And you will see outpouring, support from peers and so forth. And if there's even a similar situation or different situation for the leader, you Do not receive that same outpouring support. I'm not saying it doesn't happen all the time. But I do see the disparity, at least I have witnessed it. And I've seen expectations of other leaders like, well, that's your job, you're a leader, you're the owner, I've been told to my face many, many times when I have to, you know, work late in the night, or come on a call on the weekend, or take calls on a vacation. There's far less sympathy or empathy there, where people are like, Hey, you should not be working more so like, well, you're the owner, you're expected to do it. So, you know, it's like, this whole expectation of leadership is very, very different from how the people would like to be treated those that do report into that organisation. And I'm not saying that is wrong, I think that is the reality of being a leader. And I'm not trying here to gain sympathy of leadership, I, in fact, here to encourage leaders that you have to be okay with that, that is just, that is why you are a leader, you are expected to be in that unfair equilibrium of how people are treated or experience each other versus where you are in your in your position. It's just, it's just natural. When you're in positions of power, when you're in positions of authority, you are expected a lot more to put up with all of those things than anybody else in the organisation. Because for many reasons, it could be like, because of the size of the paycheck, you're taking home, like Yeah, he makes a lot of money, he can work the weekend, or, you know, well, that's his business, of course, you're expected to do all these things, but you can't expect that from anybody else. And are like, you know, if you make a mistake, oh my gosh, like, it's like everything good that you have worked for, that one mistake will just, like obliterate all the goodness that you may have done. And you have to rebuild all over again, because you're 10 steps behind for one mistake, right? So leaders are really looked at that capacity, that thing and it's not easy to forget that one mistake that the leader does, over the 100 things that they may have, he or she may have done that is good. Because people are looking at you with a microscope and crosshairs to see what is the next mistake this leader is going to make, versus what is the right thing that they are doing. Right. So and that's what probably elevates a lot of leaders to keep striving for becoming better. And that's actually I can use that as positive reinforcement to get better and better. But at the end of the day, they are also human. And they think we don't see that same level of outpouring support. I actually learned a lot more about the mental health and stuff like that, especially from the Olympics recently, because there's so much talk about it. And when you look at I'm not comparing myself to any Olympic champion or anything, that kind of stuff, but there is a certain responsibility to be a leader for a team. And when a leader is having a bad day, or they cannot perform at the level that they're supposed to, if they give up on the team or try to make space for themselves. It is not really well appreciated, even by the team members, right? And there's a lot of scrutiny or their mistakes made, like leaders always expected to be correct. And if you look at it, from an Olympian standpoint, once you're a gold medalist, people are out to see you fail and not get the next gold versus if someone who's never achieved even a medal. If they get to fourth place, they are celebrated. But someone who is at the top gets second place or third place or fourth place. They are not celebrated. They're scrutinised. It's a very similar type of environment with leadership because you are leading teams, you are expected to be always perfect, be the best. Be the example set the tone, and one mistake is scrutinised far more than the successes you have. If you do end up doing the right thing. Like oh, that's what you're supposed to do. Why would we give you any kudos? And then you do that one mistake. Oh my gosh, can you believe it? What he did or she did? That's unfortunately how it is seen with leaders and that's how I have felt for many, many years, to be honest. I think I've spoken a lot how positive

Frank Danna
No, no I mean, I'm just listening to it and and I'm sitting there, if I tried to put myself on our listeners shoes going, Oh my gosh, listeners out there probably going, that's exactly how it's felt like I see it. And it's very interesting that you paint this picture, what you're saying sounds very bleak, it sounds very challenging and extremely hard, I think in regards to what, what we're what we're talking about, because leadership is incredibly important, right? Because organisations aren't able to actually be organisations without leaders. And, and making those tough decisions and doing those things they need to be doing. However, I think there's, and I know we're gonna start talking about it. But there's a flip side to it. There's this, this perception that people can have, that really is a fixed mindset around, hey, I'm always going to stay lonely, I'm not able to see myself with others and actually grow as a leader in regards to relationships, I'm always going to be ostracised, or alienated. And there's there's hope, there's hope that it doesn't have to be that lonely at the top. And that what it takes is a little bit of a perspective change. And even a reality check. I think Mohammad you've given us and our listeners kind of that reality check of Okay, this is the reality of leadership. But the perception of it's lonely at the top is something that can adjust, it can be reformatted and reapplied, once you're able to start taking those necessary steps to see yourself, yes, as a leader, but as someone who actually doesn't have to be lonely, like it doesn't have to stay that way.

Mohammad Anwar
Yeah, I, I have seen that since I've taken the opportunity to become vulnerable, and be able to open up and talk about my failures and apologise for it, then I've been seen more as a human and not as a leader, where I have been able to start seeing outpouring support from my organisation, and team members, which has obviously helped me get through tough times, and difficult times. So I think the first step is obviously, you need to be vulnerable. But then also, you need to continue to serve everyone around you, your role is to serve others not serve yourself all the time, of course, I have to take care of myself so that I can serve others better. But you don't have to do it alone, you can create an environment where your team can support you, and be there for you. But that also is the responsibility on leaders to create that type of an environment. So you might be creating an environment where you're feeling lonely, but if you want to get out of it, you still have to work towards creating that environment of support, you still have to do it, and you have to do it and no expectations. And, you know, the hope is when you are able to serve your team and do what's right for your team, but no expectations. And when you recognise all the celebrations that happened, that may not be about you, but it is about your team. That is your celebration, when others are being recognised. And you can have a growth mindset and say that celebration of that person is my celebration, that person's recognition is my recognition, even though your name may not be attached to it, you have to take it in those strides. And you have to approach it that way. Because you are setting the tone, you're leading the organisation to where when people are doing the right things. That's your celebration, when people are taking care of each other. That's your celebration. That's your moment of joy. And that's what you have to make the best out of it. And that's when you start to see things differently. And you're able to see when others are prospering when others are celebrating when others are giving each other Kudo taking care of each other. That's your success. That's your celebration. It doesn't have to be about you. It is about everyone else. And it takes it takes you to get to that stage and be able to want to do that and accept all of those things as your success. And that's really, really hard to do. I won't lie. But I struggled with it too. But I've at least found a way that I can at times celebrate the accomplishments of my leadership by seeing other people's accomplishments by seeing other people's kudos and that is able to warm my heart and satisfy my heart that okay, that is a result of everything that may have happened behind the scenes that no one knows about that doesn't have visibility into all the hours the work, the sacrifices, the you know, all the things that you've had to do to make that happen. You don't you You're in, it's not visible. So you can be visible even in the celebration of it. So you just got to celebrate it behind the scenes, appreciate it. But eventually people do start to I have seen, at least in our organisation, that a lot of people have started to treat me as another human being, and not just as the president or CEO of Softway and extended that love and support, regardless of titles and positions, and I have started to see that also happen. And it doesn't happen consistently. It doesn't happen all the time. But those little moments and those, those, those those moments where I have seen the care, and support, even if it happens one in 100 times is enough to carry me through the 100 times it doesn't happen. And that has been sufficient to push me through. So I, I agree with you, Frank, it comes down to the mindset. I can do all these things and sit with a fixed minded approach to it and be like, Hey, I did all of this, but I'm not getting recognition. No one appreciates me. No one recognises me. I've had to change my attitude and be like, yeah, that's, that's the truth. That's the reality. But guess what, if this is the role you're gonna play, then you have to be okay with it, period, you have to be okay with it. And you need to keep doing what you're supposed to do. Because you're not doing it for recognition, you're doing it because it's such a right thing to do. So keep doing what you're supposed to do.

Frank Danna
You talked about support a second ago, a little while ago, you've kind of like, referenced that word. And when I hear support, I hear accountability, like relationship. So what does that element look like from being lonely? You know, when we talk about loneliness at the top, I immediately think like relationships and connection with others. So how have you been able to find, building that support mechanism and that accountability with other people being the CEO of the company? Sorry, Jeff, I just completely took over the question asking duties, I apologise.

Jeff Ma
That has never been established. All I have to do is open the show and close it.

Frank Danna
Excellent. Well, no, everybody. It's your host, Frank, Dan. No, I'm kidding. So but I am, I am definitely wondering, like what is what what does that look like when it comes to building that support system, as a leader so that that loneliness, feeling isn't something that's constantly coming back.

Mohammad Anwar
Like I said, I think it organically happens, but it has to start with you. Right, as a leader, like you can't expect it to magically appear, the leader has to first set the tone of building genuine relationships and being really served the team and help them through their situations. And in hopefully what that does is creates an environment where the team members eventually start to recognise and realise that they too can support the very leaders that have been supporting them. But you can't expect that out of your team members without you first, serving your team and doing what you how you'd like to be treated, treat your team. And that's, you know, the golden rule. But, you know, take it beyond that, and treat them how they'd like to be treated, then maybe one day they will treat you like how you want to be treated. And so I think when you're able to do that, and extend that and do it with no expectations, it'll be far more pleasant and surprising and appreciated than doing it with expectations. Because then you're doing it with expectations. You're the one who's constantly living in this prison of like, I did all this but I'm not getting anything in return. I did all this, but no one's appreciating me I did all this and no one's recognising me. And guess what, what's the dangerous people won't even know that you're expecting those type of things but and they might not even think it's appropriate to expect from as a leader, those kinds of return, you know, reciprocity or whatever. When you don't have any expectations, you don't get disappointed. So when you do things and do it without expectation, then you have no room for disappointment. And then you're doing it purely out of, you know, fulfilling needs of your team and that is your role. So ultimately, once the team starts to see your behaviours, your actions and get inspired and motivated by what you're doing, they will want to do it too. And even if they don't do it with you, and they do it with others, that's still a success for you. And then maybe it'll come around, maybe it won't. You still have to be okay with it. But when it does come around, it is very special. It is like I'm telling you like I've had a few moments of A lot of crying when I have been supported in those ways by the team because it's it's, it's something you don't expect but you work hard and when you do see that reciprocity, it does melt your heart I want you to do more actually after the work afterwards

Frank Danna
and I feel like you know, even just the the team here like endless podcast as well Chris as well like some of our folks that are constantly engaging in doing this type of having these types of conversations like Mohammad, I know that you have a supports as much as with us but with other leaders inside of Softway, where if you're having a problem, like if you're legitimately frustrated about something which you will get to, because you're human, you have some people you can reach out to that will not judge you that will not look at you in a capacity that says great. This is this is the terrifying leader that I was afraid of no that will look at you as a friend. And you're not just as a colleague. And I think that's incredibly vital and necessary for leaders to recognise as there's a huge amount of value in having those types of relationships where there's no fear of condemnation or judgement or you can like be completely yourself at any point in time like those are those are necessary right those are hard to attain but but helpful to a leader that feels lonely

Mohammad Anwar
so maybe I should flip the question to you guys so I agree with everything you said. Yeah, and I do have that support system now and you know, I am very appreciative of it and I appreciate you guys. But why don't you share from your perspective for the many years that you weren't what was actually going on in your mind? Why was it not where it is today and what led you guys to change and help me and support me in ways that I benefit today? What took you guys so long? What was the life like I just want you to know like I know it wasn't always like this No but what do you think led us to the state where we are today and not seeing that to like say hey what the hell Why did it take so long I'm proud to say like, but it was a reality it's probably a journey that is most leaders and their co workers are going to go through in this culture of love but what was it that you saw it What was it that you experienced from your lens? I kind of shared my perspective

Jeff Ma
I think it's very simple for me i think you know, if you know our story, Mo, started your own personal transformation change journey a while back and you were kind of alone in that journey because you were discovering you know, all the things we preach today you're experimenting with and trying and the rest of us we're just kind of there along for the ride and I think there's a moment not a moment but you know as you built up your own your way of serving and becoming a leader in your own right of that really cared and showed all these things that was a huge step you know like when you started transforming you started building the environment around you to have vulnerability and trust included in its in this in not just the words we say but how we actually behave around each other. But you did that first you were doing that the rest of us were just kind of reaping the rewards of it. For me I think the biggest change came after that were first that change and you set an example for what you how you want to run this company but how you wanted leaders in this company to also behave and then passing that point whether we were encouraged held accountable or chose to do it ourselves. We started following suit and I think it's when our pillars are practised by everyone you create pockets of people who embrace the culture and this becomes a different environment as close as we've always been Mo, you know there were times when neither of us practice a culture of love so it was just there's definitely times when you know you're on your own because if you're dealing with something I'm here to help take orders and I will say yes sir and that'll be it and then there's a phase when when you were there and ready and receptive and you want feedback and you have trust and you have all this stuff but I'm not ready to give it to you because you're you're beyond that part in your journey but I don't trust that you're intense or good yet I don't know if you know you're just doing that as a mind game or you know I'm not there yet. And so for me it's when then I picked up my introspection I looked at what I was doing as a leader I started understanding what vulnerability and trust look like in our environment. And you know, I not to like single us out but you know, Mohammad you Frank myself and Chris as well. You know, we we went through these really crazy journeys of through this stuff through many different you know, travels in different ups and downs and dilemmas. And and we really created this really 360 degree kind of culture like application of the culture. Like, we always say the culture starts from the leader, but we don't you don't realise its benefits until that culture is behaved throughout. And we've always said that it has to be everyone participating in the right behaviours in order to benefit from all the way you can't just have one leader going out there being vulnerable, showing trust and all these things, and nobody else is working on their own mindsets and receiving it the right way. That's not going to make a difference. And so for me, it all changed when I was also able to adjust my mindset. And now we're coming to the table with you know, Mo, no matter what you say, or do, I trust in your humanity, I know that what you say is what you mean, what you mean is what you say, I know that I can believe in your intent. And it makes everything so simple. Like today, our relationship is Yeah, you're technically CEO, you know, you you write the pay cheques, you're the boss, you're all those things, but doesn't change the fact that if you, if you come to me in a bad day in a bad mood, I'm not going to read that any other way. And in fact, I will be supportive, I would say, look, Mo you're having a bad day, you're overreacting, you need to, you know, as your friend, you need to calm down and chill out. Because, you know, you know, that's the only reason I can do that. And it doesn't take courage anymore. It doesn't require me to be anything more than what I know is right. And I think it's a really powerful thing. I think it's a rare thing to be honest. And that's what I strive to continue. We share this podcast in the hopes that these little these things can happen for others, because it is possible, you can still be in this environment, get work done. You can be a CEO, non CEOs, you can work side by side. I was very wordy response to your question. But I feel very, I feel very passionate that, that that's the turning point. It wasn't like leaders need to understand it's not when you transform that matters. It's when you transform, and then you influence others to transform. And everyone buys into this mindset. That actually happens. So yeah, sounds like a lot of work. Sounds like a long game. It is. And that's why you got to get started. You got to get started now.

Frank Danna
Yeah, for me, Mohammad. It happened when you invited me in to join this culture with you. And up until that point, it was on that flight to Prague, where you gave me some very critical tough love feedback where you're like, Frank, I've been hoping that you would see the way that I've been kind of acting and moving in this direction and hoping that you would join in with me, but I haven't seen you practising and I want you to start practising. I said, Mohammad, I have permission to do this. And you're like, you don't have to ask for permission to do this. This is you can just do this. And I was like, Okay, cool. Well, that's, that's neat. But it was like a switch had been flipped. And I started to recognise, hold on a second, I didn't need permission to begin this process. But you invited me in to say, you are part of this. Like it's not just on me to make these changes. And to and to move in this. It is, like Jeff eloquently mentioned, acted out, not just at the leader level, but when everyone is participating. But that invitation in I think on that flight, I don't know if you know how pivotal that moment was, for me, because I think at that moment, we started actually being able to like text more often, like there was an actual, there was there was conversations happening outside of work just as much as inside of work, like I was invited to provide you feedback, and you provide me feedback. And it felt like our relationship changed because there was an invitation to participate. And I think that some leaders are hoping and desiring that individuals in their teams are going to one day walk up to them and say, Can I give you some critical feedback about the way you've been performing as a leader, that may not happen, it may take a leader saying to someone, hey, I invite you into this with me. And in doing so creating an opportunity and a safe space for that to actually blossom into a better relationship. And, and I think what was holding me back was your title Mohammad was your position was the fact that I was looking at you as the big boss, and not as a human that has real struggles and real needs. And in that moment, that invitation made you more human in my eyes. And as a result of that I committed to you and to the rest of our team, that I would serve the needs of our team. And so I think that really, for me was the catalyst. And so, you know, I'm thinking about other leaders thinking, who are those individuals in our organisation that I can actually invite in? And when you do that, create a support system, not just for the leader, but for each other. I think that's, that's valuable, because at that point, you know, you're not lonely.

Mohammad Anwar
Yep. Absolutely. I think that makes sense. And that's where I've been trying to have the opportunity to burst the myth if that's a bust the myth if that's the thing, you're missing Amid vesting, that leadership is not lonely at the top is, in fact, It can be an environment where leaders can have a really strong support system with their team. But it does come down to how the leaders are able to set that environment. And now they have to be the ones to lead and set the tone and do it with no expectations, because that's when you're genuinely doing it. And that's when your culture will transform where leaders will be supported just as much as the leaders are there to support everyone else. So that's what I've, I'm here to leave, leave you guys leave the audience that message and hope

Jeff Ma
that great summary. Absolutely. So that's, that's, that's going to wrap it up for this conversation. Thank you, Frank and Mohammad for joining me in this little powwow. For our listeners, thank you very much for checking us out, be sure to check out our book. Of course, it's still out there. It's actually our 100th as we record this, it's our 100th day Since launching our book and we couldn't be more excited about how it's doing so it's best selling all over the place. So check it out. Here Love is the strategy, the podcast, we are going to keep posting those episodes every Wednesday. And if you like what you hear, please do make sure to give us a review, share with your friends, and subscribe. So with that, thank you very much and we'll see you next week.